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| One of Us |
Actually it is a known DNA damaging agent, and had caused an increase in tumors alone. It's not been studied in humans, as frankly, the ability to get nicotine in a pure form into the body is quite new. The tobacco specific nicotine compounds are noted to be more carcinogenic than pure nicotine, but nicotine by itself damages DNA, and in some models promotes tumor growth. Look at the NIH website from the fron. Oncology journal article they have there if you need more than my saying it's there. In essence, pure nicotine has not been studied much because tobacco has been the ubiquitous form of it for ages. Maybe vaporized compounds (e cigarettes) are less oncogenetic than conventional tobacco, but that hasn't been proven or disproven yet. | |||
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My angst is the use of a timed feeder in an high fenced area where the deer have no real alternatives but to come to the feeder at predictable times and get shot. I have zero issues hunting from a blind. Archers do it and I do it. | |||
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The theme that emerges is that those individuals uncomfortable with applying ethics to hunting seem to struggle with the lack of black and white answers. However, that is true of any situation involving ethics. Even laws, while written to be more black and white, often have a good bit of gray associated with them. The fact that there are not black and white answers does not mean that we simply fall back to the lowest common denominator of performance . . . the minimum level of acceptable behavior . . . compliance with laws. Ethics are simply a set of principles that like minded individuals use to guide them within the law in defining the appropriate boundaries of acceptable behavior. In that regard, the Boone and Crockett Club Principles of Fair Chase seem like a pretty good start to me: "FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. THE FAIR CHASE HUNTER: • Knows and obeys the law, and insists others do as well • Understands that it is not only about just what is legal, but also what is honorable and ethical • Defines "unfair advantage" as when the game does not have reasonable chance of escape • Cares about and respects all wildlife and the ecosystems that support them, which includes making full use of game animals taken • Measures success not in the quantity of game taken, but by the quality of the chase • Embraces the "no guarantees" nature of hunting • Uses technology in a way that does not diminish the importance of developing skills as a hunter or reduces hunting to just shooting • Knows his or her limitations, and stretches the stalk not the shot • Takes pride in the decisions he or she makes in the field and takes full responsibility for his or her actions" Mike | |||
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I would like to see the use of crossbows banned during the archery season, unless there is a doctor-approved medical exemption. Crossbows take very little practice, are effective at long distances, and have very little in common with archery. Archery season has long been about mastering woodsmanship to put one in close proximity to the game, lots of practice with one's equipment to become proficient, and mostly undisturbed animals. Crossbows negate the majority of this. Use a crossbow during the general season if you like, but not during the archery season. | |||
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I agree with this, although the same could be said for modern muzzleloaders. Not a hill I'm willing to die on either way. | |||
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I have no issue allowing crossbows. They pre-date any sort of modern firearm. So would we then not allow compound bows because of the technology increase, or in-line muzzleloaders, or how about those evil scoped rifles. Advancement is advancement. All will not agree on them, but I see no reason to ban any of them from people to use. We need MORE people in the sport, not try to limit those that would come and try. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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What about timed feeders being used on low fence/free range situaitons??? Care to answer that???? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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How about just no timed feeders. Pretty simple. | |||
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What you have asked, is one of those situations that some folks simply Do Not want to address. They do not want to address the "Ethics" of taking wounded veterans out on even Free Range-Low Fence properties and helping them shoot a deer or pigs. Senior citizens that are no longer physically able to get out and hunt should simply be kicked to the side in these peoples mind! For these folks there is no middle ground, until spmething happens to them, then there will be a reassessment of the thinking! Look, deal is none of us should expect everyone else to view hunting and our role in it, in exactly the same way. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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WHY? Is anyone forcing you to hunt that way? How about we approach this from an economical standpoint. Do you or anyone else want to give a guesstimate on how many American hunt Africa annually and the amount of $$$$ they spend versus the number of Americans that hunt White Tail Deer annually and the amount of $$$$ they spend???? Let us turn this subject into reality! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Why not? Folks making too much money on them. | |||
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That is not an answer! How much $$$ do you think is spent annually by Americans hunting in Africa versus Americans hunting in America? Do you care to try and answer that? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think it's unfair to be able to hunt the rut....... | |||
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Time feeders condition a herbivore to come to a specific spot at a specific time. I have not hunted Africa. My truck driving uncles in Bloody Creek, Ky have not and will not hunt Africa. They agree with me. In fact, they gave me my hunting ethics. The activities you want to preserved alignates them from hunting. It is the preserved lack of protecting the hunting Erich of fair chase that pushes rank and file hunters from commercial hunting. Craig Boddington has said that over 70percwnt of hunters will not hunt beyond there home state. That they are do it their self deer hunters. You and the hunting industry that support practices that are not fair chase, small enclosure high fence, genetic and artificial manipulation of animal size/color, able bodies shooting from vehicles, timed feeders are repugnant to hunters you claim to be the vicar of. As far as food plots, food plots actually improve habitat. A deer can come out on the far end of the winter wheat field and not be shot. It can evade the hunter or use standing corn for bedding or shelter. A timed feeder surrounded by less ideal food forces the deer to come to this very spot right here and get shot. Add the Ozoincs gizmo that creates OZ to kill your odor. Now the hungry deer has to come to the kill spot and cannot even smell you. I can’t believe anyone ever tried to argue food plots and the khedive feeders were equal. | |||
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In some locals you cannot hunt mule deer in the rut. | |||
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Although, I have explained it many time is about 5 post know, and have stated them same thing here. These practices are what will see the majority vote to take hunting away. I was being smart bc that is the extent of most of your rebuttals. You asked why.Ok why keep time feeders. I already know. Because in order to sell hunting Texas made it legal. Sadly, other states got on the ship. | |||
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Food plots help to keep deer in an area. Hereabout we can only shoot from prescribed sunrise to sunset (times defined by the local weather service by zones). Once the woods get busy the deer go nocturnal. So you can sit and watch a field or food plot all day and nada. Maybe some action in the golden 20 minutes after sunrise and again before sunset. Feeders, from what I have seen, tend to have timers that bring deer in during daylight. I've always tried to find the routes the deer take when heading for thick cover around daybreak or coming out again at sunset. Local farmers are managing the "feed plots". "Blind" is also a term that has wide variations. My "blind" is a small wood bench leaned up against a white pine tree with a few dead branches to either side. No roof, walls, gun rest, heater, windows, screens, TV or beer cooler. If your blind has walls it's what we call a "tent" or "cottage" hereabouts. ;-) That's where we sleep before we go out hunting. | |||
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@Tony, I had no idea you had COPD. My father has it, he is a shell of a man compared to what he once was. Very sad, smoked most of his life until about 10 years ago. He is 78. I honestly don't care what people do. We have native wild swine here in Europe, they are destructive as all hell. They are hunted relentlessly. Europeans lose their shit when Americans talk about shooting wild boar from a helicopter, they don't like it. I am not an archery hunter, but I once was. I used to shoot competitive archery in high school. I think it is asinine that crossbows are not legal during archery seasons. If this same logic was applied to modern rifles, everyone would have to hunt with a 38-55 Winchester m94 even though a modern bolt gun in 300 Winchester has more authority and accuracy. Especially in states that allow inline muzzloaders during black powder. | |||
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Well I have to respectfully disagree, especially where white tail deer and feral hogs are concerned, because the majority of Americans, and that includes a lot of non-hunters who view both species as pests and want their niumbers reduced. I am pretty confident in my belief that lion and elephant hunting will be banned long before deer or feral hog. Heym you can get as mad as you want and believe as you wish over this issue, and that is just exactly what those that want hunting stopped are hoping for, that hunters simply cannot set aside their differences and unite. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Can you PLEASE provide proof on that? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Why don't you look it up yourself. I am tired of doing your reading for you. | |||
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Your statement above simply prove that you are one terribly misinformed individual. The majority of deer leases in Texas are low fenced acreages covering hundreds of acres. Example the places the man I work fotr manages a total of 15,800 acres. He divides that acreage up into smaller tracts, then leases those tracts out to groups/individuals with a limit of one hunter per 200 or 300 acres, depending on the terrain/vegetation and deer density. His other management rules, which are in addition to the TP&W rules in that county of two bucks of which only ONE can be a branch antlered buck with an inside antler spread minimum of 13 inches, he requires the buckds to be mature, 4.5 years old or older and aslong with his rules each camp has its own set of rules including all members must set up game cams and any buck that appears to be a shooter, the pictures are reviewed by the members of the camp BEFORE the buck can be shot. Heym, you really do not know anything about how hunting is conducted over the majority of Texas. Ninety plus percent of land in Texas is privately owned. There are some high fence trophy hunting operations here in Texas, some offer white tail, several offer various exotics but neither are numerous as you believe, the vast majority of hunting in Texas takes place on low fenced (5 wire barb wire) acreages of hundreds to thousands of acres where the game is free to roam wherever they wish. You have passed judgement over a large number of hunters, based on emotionally backed misinformation. And as for this comment:
No need to, because you just proved there isn't any. Have you ever hunted Mule Deer? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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one of us |
Toward the beginning of this topic it was stated that tower shoots for pheasants should be banned. I've attended several of these shoots; they're a lot of fun and, surprisingly, the percentage of birds killed is not as high as you would expect. Depending on the set up, only 60% of the birds released are brought down. Tower shoots where the tower is concealed in a stand of trees are more challenging than ones set up in an open field. Years ago on AR I posted some comments about a tower shoot I'd gone on, and was quite surprised as some of the very negative--and nasty--responses to my post. It never occurred to me--and still doesn't--that a tower shoot might be considered unethical. It's not a hunt, it's a shoot and no one denies that. Most, if not all, quail plantations rely on pen-raised birds; wild coveys are just about gone. Is put-and-take quail hunting unethical? If it were "banned" there'd be virtually no quail to hunt. What is wrong with enjoying tower shoots and pen-raised quail hunts? I can go to the supermarket and buy quail or pheasant, but I'd much rather go outdoors and shoot them. Either way, I've paid for birds raised to be killed. It's pretty clear why the anti-hunting faction is so influential: they don't worry about ethics or fight amongst themselves--ALL "blood sports" are evil and to be banned. LTC, USA, RET Benefactor Life Member, NRA Member, SCI & DSC Proud son of Texas A&M, Class of 1969 "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning | |||
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Sure, I think it is unethical to use a timed feeder. The purpose is to attract the deer at pre-set times. This is baiting pure and simple and not hunting. Also, on mule deer in the rut - Wyoming and Utah often do not have rifle seasons in the rut. | |||
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It pretty much all boils down to one concept, some hunters have deluded themselves that if any and all forms of hunting they do not agree with, the anti's will stand and applaud and allow them to keep doing business they way they believe it should be done. Nothing more/Nothing less. They have convinced themselves that if they take measures to appease the ire of the anti's, the anti's will back off with their effiorts to stop lion and elephant hunting. So, throwing other hunters under the bus seems perfectly okay. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And in many locals you can't use timed feeders either. For the record, I'm for any hunting that is legal, even though I may not be interested in doing it. | |||
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On the wounded warrior or hunter with a disability issue - there are rules in place in many states that make allowances for this hunter. However, shooting a deer or whatever over a timed feeder in a small enclosure is not hunting and I would suspect the person with the limited mobility would prefer to hunt as real as possible - over a food plot, from a deer stand over a sender, whatever. | |||
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| One of Us |
Further - this is not "Hunters versus Hunters" This is a discussion of ethics and how ethics impacts hunting and the perception by the non-hunting public. Your assumption that we are divided is not entirely accurate. I have no wish to stop you or anyone with similar beliefs from hunting. I would hope that by a logical discussion of ethics (remember "legal" is not the issue )that you and some would be convinced that certain practices that are "legal" are abhorrant to many hunters and non-hunters. These practices may be legal, but the continued use of those practices will likely lead to ALL hunting being radically changed from what we know and practice now. If we do not correct ourselves, the public will impose their collective will on us and we will not like it. Example - Cecil the lion. We all know the issue and the facts. Nothing illegal was done. Ethical issues were definitely violated however. This one event has led to the mess the African hunters now face on lions and elephants. If the public was aware of how bison are killed in the US or around Yellowstone (drive by killings are the norm), there would be an outcry. If the public was fully invested in pen raised bird shoots and saw exactly how that is done - you would seen an outcry. The very thing that saved waterfowl hunting in the US was a radical change in view of ethics on punt guns, market hunting, baiting, live bird calling, etc. Ethics drove the response by the public where now, people that are non-duck hunters, actually buy duck stamps. Go figure. Do not underestimate the ability of the public to see a logical and ethical argument. The anti's in the US are a "loud" fringe, not the majority. | |||
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So, you consider 200 to 300 low fenced acres as being a "Small" enclosure? This is a situation of hunters versus hunters and anyone that does not see that is blinding themselves to reality. The quickest way to understand that it is hunters versus hunters is by carefully noticing No One has said ANYTHING about wanting to see Lion or Elephant hunting banned, but several people adamant about wanting to see other legal forms of hunting, that far more people participate in than lion and elephant hunting combined, banned. As far as hunting elk and mule deer during the rut, I think if you will notice it is restricted to archery only, so no one wins any points on that because hunting can be and is done, just not rifle hunting. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Well stated Ross. Truth be told, the future of hunting depends on responsible hunters calling out and condemning the actions of irresponsible and unethical hunters like the croc "hunter" on the Trophy film. The notion that responsible hunters should stand united with fellows like that ostensibly to save hunting because what he was doing was "legal" is completely off the mark. Not only should responsible hunters condemn such conduct, they should be the first to condemn such conduct. We owe that to sport. Mike | |||
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I do not have time for you today, but since you insiuated that I am a liver or stupid. Idaho off the top of my head does not allow mule deer to be hunted with a rifle during the rut. There may be some very coveted draw opportunities. This is the majority rule in western mule deer states. Why bc in the second half of my life mule deer numbers cratered. The no guns during the rut was the first attempt to stifle this lose. Low fences allow game to move, so no I have no issue. Timed feeders never on any property. It is not hard Crazyhorse. | |||
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| One of Us |
To answer CHC questions - 1. Yes, that is small. It is an unnatural "enclosure" that seals the deer in and they cannot get out. Food source may be limited and the deer will definitely go to a feeder at every chance as it is easier than scrounging elsewhere. Plus, that size enclosure can be over loaded with deer while "managing" buck/doe ratios to extremes to shoot deer with big horns only. I went to a deer ranch in Missouri, very well known and intensely managed for 200-300" horns. Buck doe ratio was 5 bucks to the doe. They intentionally managed it that way to get the best horn growth as well as the most aggressive bucks to breed. They lost about 20 bucks the year I was there to wounds from fighting. Each of those bucks was "worth $10,000 to $15,000" according to the owner, but worth the loss to get the horns people will pay for. The size was 1800 acres and was cut into various size pastures to allow multiple hunters there at the same time without "feeling crowded". Are all high fence operations this intensely managed? NO. Are there a lot of them out there like this? YES. Where are the ethics here? There aren't any. The "end result" is always a dead deer that was bred, fought, died solely for horn size. Cattle in other words. That is what I find wrong in our hunters today - the idea that you pay your money - you get your 200" whitetail. 2. The reason no one in the hunting community wants lion or elephant hunting banned is that there is no reason to ban it. The resource is carefully managed and regulated. Methods (calibers and type of hunting) is controlled by governments and by the safari companies themselves. They cannot overshoot or illegally hunt these species due to the fact these animals are long lived, require protection from outside interests and they "pay their way" by the fees people pay to take a chance on a hunt. I do not know the stats on success rates for elephants and lions but I would suspect they are in the 50% range. LIons are less and elephants may be more. 3. On the elk and mule deer rut issue, I have tried to hunt the rut on both at times and found seasons closed to rifle hunters. Archery is a different matter. Plus, archery success rates are around 20% if my memory serves. Again, do not take this as an attack on you or on deer hunting. It is not an attack, but a discussion. We are united in our love for the sport. We all want it to continue. However, to continue, things and practices must change. This will be driven by ethics if we do this intentionally or it will change by law and not to our liking. Please look at the latest edition of Fair Chase, the Boone and Crockett Club magazine - there is a long article stating that ethics drive change, not law..... I will scan and post here if I can manage it. We are not HUNTER VS HUNTER - we are united, sometimes we discuss differences amongst the family..... | |||
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Part of the problem is that even with agreeing to the B&C definition you will get disagreements over what that means... when it was open, was hunting on Santa Catalina island fair chase? Yet there are fenced properties in the world bigger than that... yet some would say high fence not fair chase. Period. I’ve hunted/shot in high fence areas. I didn’t think it was unethical. Was it a free range hunt? No. But it wasn’t putting Bessie down in the back 40 either. Frankly the difficulty level of those things is going to be market driven. How many folks are going to be willing to fork over $50,000 to “maybe” see an elk, much less get a shot? I’ve been trying to get a sheep hunt for a while. It looks like I will not draw one while I am still able to do it the hard way... I have no interest in shooting a bighorn on a ranch, but I can see how some guy who got the sheep bug late in life would be tempted. Tower/European shoots for birds? Sure, not as challenging as wild birds but it beats the grocery store for both chance of escape and getting in the outdoors. I do see this as divide and conquer by the antis. Sorry. Yes, I agree some folks behave barbarically. But they should be called out individually, not under some guise of hunting ethics. Your ethical free range wild sheep hunt that gets on YouTube where you pooch the shot and end up shooting it to doll rags then have to finish it with your knife due to a scope getting bumped in the hunt and using up your ammo is going to look a whole lot more barbaric and unethical than the high fence genetically altered deer hunter who uses a .223 and neck shot successfully a freak deer. Ethics are more properly a state of mind than either results or methods. I’m a bit discouraged by the hunters attacking themselves here. That croc shooter should be called out for his behavior, not that “shooting a croc behind a fence is unethical!” like we are seeing here. Let’s face it, while it is illogical, an elephant hunt is seen as unethical by most regardless, but a clean kill of a deer in a small pen would likely pass muster with more folks. The point is, if you can justify it logically, it shouldn’t be banned just because a sizable group dislike it. | |||
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Well said!!!  | |||
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I consider 2-300 acres as small whether HF or not. There are some late season rifle mule deer rut hunts in Colorado, but good luck getting a tag. I believe there are some in E Montana as well. Then there are rut mule deer rifle hunts on various Indian reservations. Also, don't forget that you can hunt rutting mule deer with a rifle here in TX on MLD ground. Actually MJines occasionally says something intelligent when he's not being his usual smartass self on the political forum. There are some legal hunting practices that we should not be proud of, and his example of that croc hunt is a good one. | |||
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BFD! You have access to larger properties where you hunt. 200 to 300 acres for 1 hunter is not a small area in this part of Texas, you hunt farther west and deer numbers, both white tail and mule deer, are lower. If I remember correctly, one lease I heard of in southwest Texas was 10.000 acres and only allowed 10 hunters at 10K per hunter. I suppose 1000 acres is too small for you! Whether it is 100 or 1000 acres, if it is low fenced, surrounded by other low fence properties, the deer are Free Ranging. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Are you serious??? You are saying that 200 to 300 acres surrounded by a 5 wire barb wire fence is an "Enclosure" that deer cannot get out of! Are you really that dumb? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Open invitation to L.Heym. Let me see how open minded you are, and how willing you are to view the other side of the issue. If you are willing to come to Texas , I will give you a 3-4 day Feral Hog hunt at no charge, lodging and meals included. The only condition is that you get on here and give an HONEST report of the hunt. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I guess “dumb”is relative. Yes that is small if it is high fenced. If open, then it is not small. Either way, timed feeders used to hold deer there at specific times is not right nor ethical. You articially create a food source and manipulate the deer to arrive when you wish to shoot them. Not understanding why you are choosing to make this personal. It is not. This should be rational discussion on Hunter vs Hunter as you stated at the start of this thread. | |||
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Again you show your stupidity and arrogance, because you are wanting to see certain types of hunting banned because You do not agree with them makes it personal. That you are incapable of understanding that shows your stupidity. A normal 5 wire barb wire fence has the bottom wire about 16 inches off the ground and the top wire is about 5 feet off the ground. Are you seriously stating that a deer CANNOT jump over a 5 foot high fence or go under that same fence? If so you are an idiot. I watch deer doing both daily and I seriously doubt that I am the only one on here that has witnessed that. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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