The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Cartridges We Could Live WithoutGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Cartridges We Could Live Without | Login/Join |
| one of us |
I think there are some cartridges we don't need. These cartridges are the ones used as marketing ploys. The RUM's are top on the list. Winchesters new slew of rounds also will be on my list shortly. What I don't like about these newbies is they are being sold as the rifle that you NEED to kill a deer. A spear will kill a deer. The 3006 was invented almost 100 years ago. Thats all anyone really needs to kill deer sized game. The bottom line today is any new round is just an attempt to make money, not to help in any way.... I would never eliminate rounds from production that were once very popular. That is counter productive. Creating new ones to make money is also counter productive... | |||
|
| <Big Stick> |
Color me different,I believe the 30-06 to be useless. Though it has lent itself well,as a basis for Wildcatting. I'd rather have a 7-08,as opposed to the '06. On the class of game the 7-08 runs out of mustard upon,the 30-06 isn't the answer(nor close)........... | ||
|
| one of us |
Nothing wrong with the 300 Savage, but I do wonder about some of the things that come out of the Colonel's mouth. | |||
|
| one of us |
I read it and gagged. If you notice,EVERY SINGLE cartridge Boddington picks is not commercialy popular right now-if nobody buys them it's not hurting the gun companys any.IMO,the cartridges we could live without are the slew of new ones coming out. I sent a long e-mail to RifleShooter but I doubt if it gets read or published. What got my goat was that Boddington wants the 6.5x55 and 7x57,two of the most popular cartridges around,discontinued from ammunation production as the "260 and 7mm-08 do the same thing".Oh Moses,smell the roses!He also wants the 7 STW (note-right now it's in a duldrum)gone as "it does nothing a 7mm RUM can't do". He takes non-popular cartridges and compares them with commericaly popular (at this time)cartridges to make the dumber species of our kind drop their 7x57s and 300 H&Hs and go buy a RUM or WSM.Boddington is bought and sold for the gun companys. Ok,my ranting is over. ------------------ | |||
|
| <J Brown> |
Big stick Please don't take this the wrong way but anyone who says the 30-06 is useless has their head so far up their ass they should not be allowed to go near a gun. For game less than 1000lbs the 30-06 is perfect. What does the 7-08 do that the 30-06 can't do better???????? Jason | ||
|
one of us |
quote: This, indeed, is the true question. Thanks for phrasing it correctly, Jason. RSY | |||
|
| <allen day> |
There's no 'right' answer to this sort of question. Every single factory cartridge is only as effective as the bullet it launches and as deadly as the person who happens to be directing the flight path of that bullet. No cartridge ever lives up to it's true potential. All of them are limited in what they can do because of the limitations of the user. Factory cartridges to discontinue? None of them - at least as long as the production of their ammo remains a financially viable proposition. AD | ||
|
| one of us |
You all are taking this way too seriously. I think an article like this is a way to generate a little heat in the letters to the editor section. It's working here, isn't it? On the other hand, if this fella is testing the waters for the gun and ammo companies to see which cartridges could be done away with with the least amount of fuss, then he should be exposed to as much ridicule and vitriol as possible. (I shoot the 6.5x55) Any thoughts? Mike. | |||
|
| <DOC> |
I think the proper reply is a article called Gunwriters We Can Live Without. I din't think even "Col." Boddington could be so daft as to talk of getting rid of such as the 6.5x55 and 7x57. It is a sure sign that he has nothing worthwhile to write about. DOC | ||
|
| <Chainsaw> |
I was hoping to find out if you fellas think that this article could be counter productive to advancing the shooting sports. Would an *anti* group view an article like this as "ammunition" to be used against us? | ||
|
| One of Us |
Let's see, I could live without the following: 300 savage
| |||
|
| <Mr.16 gauge> |
As has been previously stated, I think that articles like these are written just to generate a little controversy in the firearms world; just like "which is better: the .270 or the .30-06?" or "Which is better, the 12 gague or the 20 gague?", or "which is better, the .444 Marlin or the .45-70?", or "Which is the most difficult big game animal to hunt?" Each article presents some opinions & controversy, and SELLS MAGAZINES! Nothing more. As for companies bringing out "new" cartridges; again,this is a marketing ploy...they try and find a niche and exploit it. Take the .260 remington...nice cartridge, but there isn't anything it can do that a 6.5 swede wont do. Same with the UltraSuperDuperShorterWondermagnums everyone seems to be introducing lately....it's "new", so it must be better, right? Fact of the matter is, when Remington introduced it's 7mm mag in 1962, there was already an equivilent cartridge on the market, the 7 x 64 Brenneke. As for "eliminating" certain cartridges, I wouldn't worry too much about a gun writer doing this...the ammo makers are the ones who decide what will stay and what will go, and it is done on economics, pure and simple. If a cartridge sells, then it stays...if not, then it goes. Case in point: the 5mm Remington rimfire, the .30 luger, the .30 remington, ect. ect. Nobody has produced a .32 Winchester special rifle in YEARS, yet there are enough of them out there in use that all three of the American manufacturers make a load for this cartridge. Another case is for the 6.5x55 (a favorite of mine). Prior to the introduction of surplus rifles in the late 1980's, NONE of the American manufacturers made a load for this round...now they all do, because it is profitable. Same thing for the 7.62x39. I wouldn't worry too much about antis using articles like this to stop the hunting and shooting sports; I am more concerned with them monitering websites like this one where unsafe gun handling, poaching, ect are "bragged on" (not necessarily this particular site, but others I have been to) by it's members. If there was anywhere that we need to police our ranks, this is it. | ||
|
| one of us |
quote: EXTREMELY well said!! Thank you! | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: Second that Mr.16Gauge. The antis will always have a reason to stop hunting, reguardless of how true it is or where they get it from. As to cartridges that I could live w/o, those are the ones i don't buy a rifle in. Doesn't mean they should stop chambering or stop producing ammo for it, I'm just not interested. Case in point 30/06, anything it can do for deer a 308 or a 7mmRemMag can do just as well. For bigger game (elk, moose, bear, etc.) I'll get a rifle/cartridge combo that's much better suited than 30/06, ie: 444Marlin for black bear or 8mmRemMag for moose. as to the one cartridge that should never be produced, ever by anyone, I'm thinking 5" naval gun shell necked down to 22 cal. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
I read a few paragraphs of this article the other day while at the news-stand. It was at the very least sophomoric in content. While Boddington is a credible and prolific writer he is not the best, and in my opinion hit a slump. However, I think the current management of Peterson publishing has a much to do with this. Ever since Mr. Peterson sold out to the new ownership(very wise from a financial standpoint!) the publications seem to lack passion, and for the most part have sunk to publishing the same trite subjects - one hundred different ways. The group of writers are certainly better than their recent work suggests. But when the bottom line is of ultimate importance the art and science suffer. I have been told by a close personal friend of Jeff Cooper that Mr. Peterson took very good care of his outdoor writers; could be that the current management has displaced this. Maybe this is why Seyfried jumped ship to Harris publications. | |||
|
| one of us |
I would tend to agree with the idea that we could do without the ultra/short mag cartridges( at least I could ), but I think that time will take care of that by itself. Four or five years ago, no one could live without the, "STW of the week". Now they are fairly difficult to find ammo for, at least compared to the standard calibers. When the romance is over,we seem to gravitate back to the old standbys. But if it weren't for cool new stuff to look at and play with, we would probably all find another hobby. It's really just a matter of personal preference. I just hope that an article like this, doesn't do any damage to the classic calibers that so many love to use. | |||
|
| <Big Stick> |
I cut my teeth on the '06,as most everyone else did. It never really showed me anything,that bordered on impressive. It is a fairly sedate round,that provides yeoman service. Then I built a 7-08 and found it killed with equal authority,while offering less recoil and a higher degree of accuracy,on the average. Couple that it was housed in a shorter,lighter and handier package. All nice bonuses,in my humble opinion. Animals to the aforementioned 1000lbs,are easily within the 7-08's capabilities. If I felt an uncontrollable need for a mediocre 30,I'd grab one of my 308's and have my way with things. The '06's popularity,is for many reasons. The last of which is it's sizzling on Game performance. For YEARS,folks could mop up surplus Service rifles,for next to nothing and it's ammo was cheaper yet. It was used and in vogue,simply because of it's inexpense. You get enough guys shooting something(certain rifle type or cartridge) and they become convinced,it's the end all,despite their being equally effective options,seperate from the mainstream. In this day,the 308 is cheaper to shoot and it offers equal on Game performance. Had the '06 never been the service round,we'd not be troubling ourselves,with this discussion. Want to make a guy with a 30-06 cry? Let him shoot one through the chronograph. Especially,one with a short barrel. I believe the various '06 carbines,to be the biggest abortion of a cartridge/rifle,that has yet been developed. It is simply a LOUD 308,but I guess some like such nonsense? The 30-06 offers short action performance. If I'm going to be using that level of performance,it will be housed in a short action. One of my favorites,of that ilk,is the 7-08. If you have and love the 30-06(I'm still hangin on to my Garand),shoot it well and shoot it often. I'll be equally as content,with the 7-08. Your mileage may vary............ | ||
|
| one of us |
quote: Bingo. No one at Remchester is going to wake up in the morning and read this article and say, "Oh, even though we netted $XX,000 on the .236 Whippersnapper last year, this article says it's obsolete, so I'll have next year's run cancelled as soon as I finish my coffee." This is particularly not true as long as we "nostalgic" types keep buying the stuff anyway, and as long as Remington keeps resurrecting oldies but goodies in the 700 Classic. And, when a cartridge is discontinued, we die hards can come here to scrounge loading data, sources for brass, etc. John (who's idly keeping an eye peeled for a Remington 141 in .32 Remington ;-)) | |||
|
| <Mike Anderson> |
My answer is none! Why would we want to limit something we all love! so what I don't need 4 different 300 mags, but , i like the one I have so... what does it hurt? | ||
|
| <Zeke> |
I saw that copy of RifleShooter at the store yesterday. When I saw Boddington's name on the cover, I assumed that the article in question was the same old drivel he has been writing for years and didn't bother to thumb through it. ZM | ||
|
Moderator |
The bester question is, with the factories introducing "new" cartridges, why can't the authors introduce new articles? It's been several years since I've purchased any hunting magazenes, I can find out the latest in real tree fashions in the Cabella's catalog, and here the same useless drivel in the local gunshop. BTW, the short mags do seem to be garnering sales, and the gun pimps are pushing them. I simply fail to see why any one holds Boddington in any regard as an author, he is not exciting to read, and he is unwilling to take a stance or have a belief, not to mention the lack technical insights. | |||
|
| <Big Stick> |
What a difference a URL makes! I was crucified,for berating boddington's attempt at writing,on another Site. Amazing the differences in mindset,from one channel,to the next. Just goes to show,'tis opinion that makes these things interesting............... | ||
|
one of us |
Dang it Big Stick, kinda fun to have you hanging around. At least it doesn't get boring. The '06 is a good round. Not as good an elk round as the Whelen or the 338, not as good a deer round as the 260 or 7-08. It is not as good loaded down for low-intensity practice as a 308 based case. It doesn't have the long range trajectory of a 6.5/284. It has enough recoil to give a beginning hunter a flinch. It's a typical jack of all trades, master of none. A reluctant recommendation for the one gun hunter, but doesn't have a natural spot in the two or more gun collection. So, Big Stick, any room in that fire shelter you got there? | |||
|
| <MontanaMarine> |
Big Stick, I would have thought you spent too much time stacking up kills to put your nose in a dimestore gunrag. Guess you are a reader as well as a doer also. I am pretty content putting 190gr bullets over the chrono at avg 2826fps. That is performance the excellent .308 round cannot duplicate. The recoil has never been distracting and sub-moa accuracy is fine by my standards. If the 30-06 brought tears to your eyes it was probably from that same recoil that sent you looking for a milder cartridge. (assuming your comments are from first-hand experience, not glistened from a gunrag) The milder factory ammo is intended for the older guns like your Garand. Just thought I'd clear that up for you. Another news flash: Very few sportsmen who choose the 30-06 are carrying '03 Springfields and Garands. Virtually every gunmaker that produces hunting rifles STILL are producing rifles in this useless cartridge for all of the unenlightened fools like me who consider it valid. MM
| ||
|
| one of us |
quote: Bingo Dutch, you win a cigar (too bad I'm all out of cigars)! the 30/06 is an excellent gun for the one box of ammo per year man, and that's about it. ------------------ | |||
|
| <Gary Rihn> |
As for Boddington, it's hard for me to read any of his writings, and even harder to put any faith in any of it. I like the suggestion above, "Writers we could do without". Boddington leads that list. | ||
|
| One of Us |
The 30/06 is a great round always has been and always will be. With handloads the 30/06 is more powerul than the .308, thus has more downrange energy. It is also one of the last of the efficient cartridges in so far as once you step into the 300 winchester magnums you beigin to suffer severely from the law of diminshing returns. But on a final note it is up to the individual what they choose to shoot and each person will have there own idea about what constitutes a good calibre, and thats fine. It would be a boring forum if we all owned a .22 rimfire, 12gauge shottie, .222 remington, 30/06 and a .416 remington. And the reality is you would probably have a decent combination of firearms in that lot to pretty much tackle anything. But this great forum would suffer as a consequence. I beleive that the current competition although I do not agree with all the new introductions. (I think remington should market the ultramag line and winchester the wsm line and then offer chamberings in each others calibres)it is a sign that the firearms market is still profitible and engaging in healthy competition. We shooters can only benifit. ------------------ | |||
|
one of us |
Perhaps the way to look at what Craig Boddington wrote is to look at the assignment he was handed. After all, he is a successful professional writer. He must be pretty much on the top of his professional heap because you see his face looking out of most the US gun or hunting magazines. To pick apart just one of his recommendations, that of deleting the 6.5X55, I don't agree that the .260 Rem does everything that the 6.5X55 does. The .260R comes in a 9"(229 mm)twist barrel, while the standard for the 6.5X55 is 7.87"(200 mm). The 6.5 easily uses bullets in the 160 grain range while the .260 is pretty much limited to 140 grain tops. There is a whole category of hunting that can be done with the 6.5 that the 260 cannot handle. I know Craig knows this, so his publisher said "Hey Craig, give me 2,500 words on this ". And Craig obliged. Also the Remchester types give Craig the rifles in RUM/WSM to test and take him on hunts to do it, so you are going to read about that! And people do want to read about this stuff. We hunters, shooters and members of the gun culture have our own opinion on what is cecessary -- and eagles don't flock! jim dodd ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey PC, you wanna talk about the firearms market doing well? go to Midway's site and see how many listings you get for brass. ------------------ | |||
|
| Moderator |
As far as the 7-08 vs -06 argument, I'd agree with Stick's view. I'd further expand it to include any of the .264" to .308" standard rounds, all of them push 120-150 gr bullets 2700-3000 fps, and with good bullets and proper shot placement, are enough for game animals up to 500 #'s. The only thing the magums offer is more range. If you feel a 7-08 is inadequate for a paticular application, but have wholehearted confidence in the -06, you either don't know what the 7-08 offers, or put too much trust in the ole -06. I may have paticular favorites and would likely take the 6.5X55 or .308 in the small bore class, but would hunt with confidence with any of the other dozen or so similar rounds. And back to the dimestore gun rag authors, my most loathed is Layne Simpson, though Dick Metcalf ranks right up there. I really have nothing against Boddington, I'm sure he's a really nice guy, but he is so bland I'm amazed I'm able to finish his articles. | |||
|
| one of us |
I just have to grin at the effusive defense or attack of this cartridge or that. Take a rifle in every caliber from a .243 to a .338 Win. Mag, including the Weatherby and latest Ultra, Short or whatever magnums. Use a bullet with an SD between .240 and about .280. Sight them in 3� high at 100 yards. Aim them all at the same target 300 yards away and fire a three shot group from each. Provided the rifles are accurate you will end up with one oval group about 4� high centered some 3.5� below the point of aim. All of them will still be within a decent sized deer�s kill zone assuming a center hold. Big yawn. Past 300 yards the differences do begin to show up to a greater degree, but none of them can be counted on to stay in the kill zone of animals much less than buffalo size much past 350 yards without some elevation correction. It is up to the individual rifleman to know how much. And where are what, 98% of all animals taken? Could it be within 300 yards? Hmmm? These discussions are fun and if someone wants to knock the old �06 or any other cartridge, that�s okay, no harm done. But don�t put too much stock in the �field worthiness� of the criticisms or the praise. No matter what the headstamp says or the fractions of an inch difference in the size and shoulder angle of the brass bottle, in the field it�s the nut behind the trigger which will be the major factor in bringing home the bacon. Oh, BTW, which cartridges could we live without? ALL OF THEM, except for the .22 LR, .30-06 and 12 gauge!!! | |||
|
| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
.17 remington /MkIV .22 remington jet Any of the .19 and .14 calibres... Any cartridge that gives less than 500 rounds for barrel life. If its that much over bore, I don't want it, But of course just my opinion.... | ||
|
| <Flinch> |
Sumbich, and here I thought I had the cats meow with my thirty owe six. Now that character BigStick goes and jerks the rug out from under me. Well, I guess I gotta have myself a 7mm owe eight to kill stuff. I knew there wasn't enough dust kicking up when the critters hit the ground with the owe six. Good thing I got the 7mm mag as a good back up hu stick (wink). I see Stick has been eating whale blubber again and spending too much time in the dark in Alaska (grin). I would have to agree on one point, for a one rifle 2 boxes of shells a year guy, it is hard to beat the .30-06, but there are better rounds on both sides of it, for the game in question. As for Boddington, he is paid to preach whatever shakes the tree. I find VERY few writers give it to you straight. If they do, they don't last long unfortunately. Flinch | ||
|
| one of us |
My experiences with 7-08's go back to its days as a wildcat and my experiences with the 30-06 goes back to when the earth's crust first began to cool. I think to say that either could displace or replace the other is incorrect. I will admit that I now hunt more with the 08 and less with the 06 but the same can be said for my .280, .300, 7mag, .338,etc. Anyone that has read any of my post knows that I like the 7-08. But I don't think its the be-all, end-all. If I were going elk hunting and it was my only rifle, I would use it but would prefer a 30-06 or something larger. And, if I was hunting where Ephriam walks, I would feel much more comfortable with a 30-06 loaded with 200-220's than an 08 loaded with 175's. | |||
|
| <Big Stick> |
Flinch, I still love ya'. Even though you are one of those "'06 Guys". I'll meet you in the middle and we'll both shoot the 25-284.............. | ||
|
| <Big Stick> |
My comfort zone,is the 7-08 and 120/140X......... | ||
|
| <CARR4570> |
OH BY THE WAY BOYS AND GIRLS A COUPLE OF MONTHS BACK I READ IN ONE OF THE GUN MAGS THAT IT IS NOW --- BRIGADIER GENERAL BODDINGTON! THAT MEANS HE CARRIES MORE CLOUT NOW, RIGHT? | ||
|
| one of us |
What I didn't like about the article is that Boddington went so far as to suggest that with some cartridges even brass production should be dropped-I have come to this conclusion as several times he mentions that brass will have to be made from this or that.Now I can somehow understand the factory ammo,but discontinue brass?!?He should be strung up for that! Another conclusion I came to is that the "General" says that 222 Remington ammo should be discontinued,as no one makes brass.Well,the last time I checked,there are a whole hell of a lot more 222s floating around out there than RUMs or WSMs,and a whole bunch of them are in the hands of non-reloaders.And to tell you the truth General,most of us aren't in a real big hurry to have to make brass for our 257 Roberts and 7x57s either. I also didn't like that in the same magazine,Gary James making a big deal out of Boddington being the highest military ranked gun writer out there.My point is-do any of us really care?It bares nothing on his writing at all.And BTW,you know how Gary James says in that same article that Elmer Keith was loving and tolerable of his editors?That's 100% completly wrong.Elmer hated most editors,and James was at the top of his list.In letters to Truman Fowler,Keith admitted to sending in articles,and then they would be printed up as "Staff Articles" or James would go so far as to put his own name on them.It got so bad that Elmer threatend to leave G&A until Peterson smoothed things out. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 12-20-2001).] | |||
|
| <Chainsaw> |
Well at least one person answered my question. Thanks Mr. 16 guage. And Thanks Curtis Lemay for at least eluding to the question. I was hoping for an answer whether this could affect the shooting sports in a detrimental way, and received more yea/nay cartridge info than the useless article contained-------Chainsaw | ||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Cartridges We Could Live Without
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
. JMO, Dutch.