My question is, in this day and age of those wanting to restrict the shooting world in anyway shape or form possible could this article be anti-productive?
A case in point is that one of the cartridges mentioned is the 300 Savage. A aquaintance of mine has his dads 300 Savage Model 99 rifle, the only one now he owns. This rifle shoots well with the Winchester factory loads, and this guy shoots 1-2 boxes per year. He is always borderline on whether or not he will venture out to deer hunt every year. His wife is not real keen about him going hunting, and something like no factory cartridges could be the straw that breaks the camels back and he'll quit the sport. He has a 7 year old son, and this could also prevent another who might be a great addition to our sport from having a chance to be exposed to it also.
I know this is a stretch, but what are your thoughts on what I percieve to be a well written but totally useless article.
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"During times of universal deceit, telling
the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
--George Orwell
I'd rather have a 7-08,as opposed to the '06. On the class of game the 7-08 runs out of mustard upon,the 30-06 isn't the answer(nor close)...........
If you notice,EVERY SINGLE cartridge Boddington picks is not commercialy popular right now-if nobody buys them it's not hurting the gun companys any.IMO,the cartridges we could live without are the slew of new ones coming out.
I sent a long e-mail to RifleShooter but I doubt if it gets read or published.
What got my goat was that Boddington wants the 6.5x55 and 7x57,two of the most popular cartridges around,discontinued from ammunation production as the "260 and 7mm-08 do the same thing".Oh Moses,smell the roses!He also wants the 7 STW (note-right now it's in a duldrum)gone as "it does nothing a 7mm RUM can't do".
He takes non-popular cartridges and compares them with commericaly popular (at this time)cartridges to make the dumber species of our kind drop their 7x57s and 300 H&Hs and go buy a RUM or WSM.Boddington is bought and sold for the gun companys.
Ok,my ranting is over.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
Please don't take this the wrong way but anyone who says the 30-06 is useless has their head so far up their ass they should not be allowed to go near a gun.
For game less than 1000lbs the 30-06 is perfect.
What does the 7-08 do that the 30-06 can't do better????????
Jason
quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
What does the 7-08 do that the 30-06 can't do better????????
This, indeed, is the true question. Thanks for phrasing it correctly, Jason.
RSY
Factory cartridges to discontinue? None of them - at least as long as the production of their ammo remains a financially viable proposition.
AD
DOC
Would an *anti* group view an article like this as "ammunition" to be used against us?
300 savage
30-30
32 win
25-20
25-35
22 savage high power
22 rem jet
221 fireball
270 win
25-06
280 rem
7mm 08
260 rem
257 roberts
8x57
300 win
anything ultramag
anything short magnum
anything weatherby
416 Taylor
38-55
35 remington
351 win self loading
38 S&W
32 anything
25 auto
44 auto mag
OK, that's a good start.
quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
Big stickPlease don't take this the wrong way but anyone who says the 30-06 is useless has their head so far up their ass they should not be allowed to go near a gun.
For game less than 1000lbs the 30-06 is perfect.
What does the 7-08 do that the 30-06 can't do better????????
Jason
EXTREMELY well said!! Thank you!
tsturm
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.16 gauge:
I wouldn't worry too much about antis using articles like this to stop the hunting and shooting sports; I am more concerned with them monitering websites like this one where unsafe gun handling, poaching, ect are "bragged on" (not necessarily this particular site, but others I have been to) by it's members. If there was anywhere that we need to police our ranks, this is it.
Second that Mr.16Gauge. The antis will always have a reason to stop hunting, reguardless of how true it is or where they get it from.
As to cartridges that I could live w/o, those are the ones i don't buy a rifle in. Doesn't mean they should stop chambering or stop producing ammo for it, I'm just not interested. Case in point 30/06, anything it can do for deer a 308 or a 7mmRemMag can do just as well. For bigger game (elk, moose, bear, etc.) I'll get a rifle/cartridge combo that's much better suited than 30/06, ie: 444Marlin for black bear or 8mmRemMag for moose.
As to the RUMs and WSMs, they're fine if they're advertised for their best use, ie: 7mmWSM would make a nice moutain rifle (sheep/goat). The 338 RUM is probably a good long range choice for mule deer or elk.
as to the one cartridge that should never be produced, ever by anyone, I'm thinking 5" naval gun shell necked down to 22 cal.
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
Then I built a 7-08 and found it killed with equal authority,while offering less recoil and a higher degree of accuracy,on the average. Couple that it was housed in a shorter,lighter and handier package. All nice bonuses,in my humble opinion.
Animals to the aforementioned 1000lbs,are easily within the 7-08's capabilities. If I felt an uncontrollable need for a mediocre 30,I'd grab one of my 308's and have my way with things.
The '06's popularity,is for many reasons. The last of which is it's sizzling on Game performance. For YEARS,folks could mop up surplus Service rifles,for next to nothing and it's ammo was cheaper yet. It was used and in vogue,simply because of it's inexpense. You get enough guys shooting something(certain rifle type or cartridge) and they become convinced,it's the end all,despite their being equally effective options,seperate from the mainstream. In this day,the 308 is cheaper to shoot and it offers equal on Game performance. Had the '06 never been the service round,we'd not be troubling ourselves,with this discussion.
Want to make a guy with a 30-06 cry? Let him shoot one through the chronograph. Especially,one with a short barrel. I believe the various '06 carbines,to be the biggest abortion of a cartridge/rifle,that has yet been developed. It is simply a LOUD 308,but I guess some like such nonsense?
The 30-06 offers short action performance. If I'm going to be using that level of performance,it will be housed in a short action. One of my favorites,of that ilk,is the 7-08.
If you have and love the 30-06(I'm still hangin on to my Garand),shoot it well and shoot it often. I'll be equally as content,with the 7-08.
Your mileage may vary............
quote:
Originally posted by allen day:
Factory cartridges to discontinue? None of them - at least as long as the production of their ammo remains a financially viable proposition.AD
Bingo. No one at Remchester is going to wake up in the morning and read this article and say, "Oh, even though we netted $XX,000 on the .236 Whippersnapper last year, this article says it's obsolete, so I'll have next year's run cancelled as soon as I finish my coffee."
This is particularly not true as long as we "nostalgic" types keep buying the stuff anyway, and as long as Remington keeps resurrecting oldies but goodies in the 700 Classic.
And, when a cartridge is discontinued, we die hards can come here to scrounge loading data, sources for brass, etc.
John (who's idly keeping an eye peeled for a Remington 141 in .32 Remington ;-))
so what I don't need 4 different 300 mags, but , i like the one I have so... what does it hurt?
ZM
I simply fail to see why any one holds Boddington in any regard as an author, he is not exciting to read, and he is unwilling to take a stance or have a belief, not to mention the lack technical insights.
Amazing the differences in mindset,from one channel,to the next. Just goes to show,'tis opinion that makes these things interesting...............
The '06 is a good round. Not as good an elk round as the Whelen or the 338, not as good a deer round as the 260 or 7-08. It is not as good loaded down for low-intensity practice as a 308 based case. It doesn't have the long range trajectory of a 6.5/284. It has enough recoil to give a beginning hunter a flinch.
It's a typical jack of all trades, master of none. A reluctant recommendation for the one gun hunter, but doesn't have a natural spot in the two or more gun collection.
So, Big Stick, any room in that fire shelter you got there? . JMO, Dutch.
I would have thought you spent too much time stacking up kills to put your nose in a dimestore gunrag. Guess you are a reader as well as a doer also.
I am pretty content putting 190gr bullets over the chrono at avg 2826fps. That is performance the excellent .308 round cannot duplicate. The recoil has never been distracting and sub-moa accuracy is fine by my standards.
If the 30-06 brought tears to your eyes it was probably from that same recoil that sent you looking for a milder cartridge. (assuming your comments are from first-hand experience, not glistened from a gunrag)
The milder factory ammo is intended for the older guns like your Garand. Just thought I'd clear that up for you.
Another news flash: Very few sportsmen who choose the 30-06 are carrying '03 Springfields and Garands. Virtually every gunmaker that produces hunting rifles STILL are producing rifles in this useless cartridge for all of the unenlightened fools like me who consider it valid.
MM
quote:
Originally posted by Dutch:
It's a typical jack of all trades, master of none. A reluctant recommendation for the one gun hunter, but doesn't have a natural spot in the two or more gun collection.
Bingo Dutch, you win a cigar (too bad I'm all out of cigars)! the 30/06 is an excellent gun for the one box of ammo per year man, and that's about it.
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
I like the suggestion above, "Writers we could do without". Boddington leads that list.
But on a final note it is up to the individual what they choose to shoot and each person will have there own idea about what constitutes a good calibre, and thats fine. It would be a boring forum if we all owned a .22 rimfire, 12gauge shottie, .222 remington, 30/06 and a .416 remington. And the reality is you would probably have a decent combination of firearms in that lot to pretty much tackle anything. But this great forum would suffer as a consequence.
I beleive that the current competition although I do not agree with all the new introductions. (I think remington should market the ultramag line and winchester the wsm line and then offer chamberings in each others calibres)it is a sign that the firearms market is still profitible and engaging in healthy competition. We shooters can only benifit.
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To pick apart just one of his recommendations, that of deleting the 6.5X55, I don't agree that the .260 Rem does everything that the 6.5X55 does. The .260R comes in a 9"(229 mm)twist barrel, while the standard for the 6.5X55 is 7.87"(200 mm). The 6.5 easily uses bullets in the 160 grain range while the .260 is pretty much limited to 140 grain tops. There is a whole category of hunting that can be done with the 6.5 that the 260 cannot handle. I know Craig knows this, so his publisher said "Hey Craig, give me 2,500 words on this ". And Craig obliged.
Also the Remchester types give Craig the rifles in RUM/WSM to test and take him on hunts to do it, so you are going to read about that! And people do want to read about this stuff.
We hunters, shooters and members of the gun culture have our own opinion on what is cecessary -- and eagles don't flock!
jim dodd
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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."
you wanna talk about the firearms market doing well? go to Midway's site and see how many listings you get for brass.
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
If you feel a 7-08 is inadequate for a paticular application, but have wholehearted confidence in the -06, you either don't know what the 7-08 offers, or put too much trust in the ole -06.
I may have paticular favorites and would likely take the 6.5X55 or .308 in the small bore class, but would hunt with confidence with any of the other dozen or so similar rounds.
And back to the dimestore gun rag authors, my most loathed is Layne Simpson, though Dick Metcalf ranks right up there. I really have nothing against Boddington, I'm sure he's a really nice guy, but he is so bland I'm amazed I'm able to finish his articles.
Past 300 yards the differences do begin to show up to a greater degree, but none of them can be counted on to stay in the kill zone of animals much less than buffalo size much past 350 yards without some elevation correction. It is up to the individual rifleman to know how much. And where are what, 98% of all animals taken? Could it be within 300 yards? Hmmm?
These discussions are fun and if someone wants to knock the old �06 or any other cartridge, that�s okay, no harm done. But don�t put too much stock in the �field worthiness� of the criticisms or the praise. No matter what the headstamp says or the fractions of an inch difference in the size and shoulder angle of the brass bottle, in the field it�s the nut behind the trigger which will be the major factor in bringing home the bacon.
Oh, BTW, which cartridges could we live without? ALL OF THEM, except for the .22 LR, .30-06 and 12 gauge!!!
Any cartridge that gives less than 500 rounds for barrel life. If its that much over bore, I don't want it, But of course just my opinion....
I still love ya'. Even though you are one of those "'06 Guys".
I'll meet you in the middle and we'll both shoot the 25-284..............
Another conclusion I came to is that the "General" says that 222 Remington ammo should be discontinued,as no one makes brass.Well,the last time I checked,there are a whole hell of a lot more 222s floating around out there than RUMs or WSMs,and a whole bunch of them are in the hands of non-reloaders.And to tell you the truth General,most of us aren't in a real big hurry to have to make brass for our 257 Roberts and 7x57s either.
I also didn't like that in the same magazine,Gary James making a big deal out of Boddington being the highest military ranked gun writer out there.My point is-do any of us really care?It bares nothing on his writing at all.And BTW,you know how Gary James says in that same article that Elmer Keith was loving and tolerable of his editors?That's 100% completly wrong.Elmer hated most editors,and James was at the top of his list.In letters to Truman Fowler,Keith admitted to sending in articles,and then they would be printed up as "Staff Articles" or James would go so far as to put his own name on them.It got so bad that Elmer threatend to leave G&A until Peterson smoothed things out.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
[This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 12-20-2001).]