When I was a kid,there was no such animal as a cull buck.I hate that word and the implication that the buck is less than a worthy catch.No Buck was degraded because of size,antler configuration etc.Everyone did not shoot a buck every year and the ones taken were prized.You either got a wall hanger or a good eater and those who did not tag out were envious of those who did.Now deer hunting has degraded to how many inches.You see kids on TV shows encouraged to pass by respectable bucks as they are not big enough.Too me this degrades hunting as a whole.People do not hunt anymore,they sit in their blind over bait or a food plot while they play video games on their smart ass phones.Too bad whole generations do not know what it is to sit on a stump in the snow watching a deer trail or scrape line.Better yet to actually track a buck in the snow for miles. Still hunting is a lost art.No ,hunting has degraded into a glorified video game that teaches no outdoor skills.If dooms day comes and the world is set back two hundred years most(hunters?) could not find their ass with two hands and an oil lamp.End of rant,OB

I tend to agree with much of your post. Everyone hunts differently and for different reasons, but how we hunt usually has an effect on other hunters.

It is even worse than that for those of us who live in limited hunting opportunity States. Out here, kids sit at home and play video games because they can not draw a deer permit. Many of the hunting units in my State are managed for more mature bucks and some for higher success rates. To do that hunting opportunity is cut.

The new rage is Long Range hunting. I tire of hearing about guys backing up to shoot the animal at a longer range. I hear first hand stories from multiple people every year. 550 yards was too close so back up to 800. And worse is I get told that they want to draw doe antelope tags to shoot 1000 yard shots. Like a doe antelope is "less" important than a buck or bull.....

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
When I was a kid,there was no such animal as a cull buck.I hate that word and the implication that the buck is less than a worthy catch.No Buck was degraded because of size,antler configuration etc.Everyone did not shoot a buck every year and the ones taken were prized.You either got a wall hanger or a good eater and those who did not tag out were envious of those who did.Now deer hunting has degraded to how many inches.You see kids on TV shows encouraged to pass by respectable bucks as they are not big enough.Too me this degrades hunting as a whole.People do not hunt anymore,they sit in their blind over bait or a food plot while they play video games on their smart ass phones.Too bad whole generations do not know what it is to sit on a stump in the snow watching a deer trail or scrape line.Better yet to actually track a buck in the snow for miles. Still hunting is a lost art.No ,hunting has degraded into a glorified video game that teaches no outdoor skills.If dooms day comes and the world is set back two hundred years most(hunters?) could not find their ass with two hands and an oil lamp.End of rant,OB

150% I agree.

Thank You Ol'Biker your comments hit the nail square on the head, every stroke.

Olbiker and MC nailed it for sure!

George

You can add me to your list for of those who don't like what deer hunting has become in some areas at least. If I wanted to shoot what has pretty become livestock it's easier just to go to the grocery store and buy it.

Thank goodness where I hunt at least deer are still wild, success isn't guaranteed and they don't have names!

It would seem the "he needs another year" crowd has indeed lost forever the joy of hearing one school kid ask another" get your deer yet" hell when I started out killing ANY deer was a special. Today shooters sit over manicured food plots in fancy box blinds with a faces painted in camo designs that make me laugh. They call themselves names like Whitetail Freaks, Headhunters an such trying their best to make hunting over a field of corn that was grown then chopped the day before with no purpose but to hunt without calling it baiting as today's norm.
Land owners today,nationwide not solely in Texas, lease their hunting rights to the highest bidders more often than not those who do lease that land are not local hunters an they already have several farms leased up for themselves.
I predicted many years ago when hunting videos first hit the rental shops that hunting had began a downward spiral, land would be gobbled up cutting access to the local guys, restricted hunting seasoned, etc. etc....... and yes I myself did produce a tv hunting show for TOC at one time but I did it all on public hunting ground or paid outfitted hunts. What I saw during those years turned me off the biz an I quit it.

Your rants are interesting and I'm sure somewhat accurate but I don't think you can paint "all" young hunters with the same wide brush.

What you are ranting about seems prevalent on TV shows and possibly in some parts of the country but I don't think it is coast to coast.

Nothing wrong with kids or adults trying to take a Deer, Elk or Antelope better than last years, gives some a goal to aspire to and makes some of them get out and hunt the hills harder, hike further and stay in the woods longer.
Not everyone everywhere is hunting from a box blind over a food plot I can assure you that.

I also don't see a problem with someone killing a buck that they feel will never grow up to contribute good genes to the local herd. (cull buck) that is sound management.

I can relate as a kid going to school and trading stories with my 12 and 14 year old buddies about close calls near misses and sometimes the buck we got over the weekend. You can be sure this still happens, not all kids have a TV show and an audience to impress.
As a kid as I killed more Deer I wanted to hold out for bigger and more mature animals and after killing a couple dozen bucks by my early 20's I became fairly picky, hunted harder and changed my tactics and terrain to find those "better " Bucks.
My kids are on a similar track...

I think "cull buck" and discussing management of the deer on your property, be it with food plots or feeders, is all about the domestication of the whitetail deer. I do not think this new definition of hunting is anything I want to be associated with. I hope when I am old and crippled up, that I have the integrity to just hang it up rather than partake in this "New Hunting".

As far as competitive hunting, either against oneself or against other hunters, I think that is unfortunately human nature. In the old days this behavior got you shunned by most other hunters and that was how it was curbed. Shunning is no longer in fashion.

quote:

I hope when I am old and crippled up, that I have the integrity to just hang it up rather than partake in this "New Hunting".

Or do like my Dad did in his 80's go out in the woods build a small fire make some coffee an don't worry about shooting a deer.

He told me he had passed up several because he didn't want to mess with.

I told him he had sons and grand children to do that for him he would just smile.

The man had killed hundreds of deer one more wouldn't have made or broke him.

I am older than dirt can not honestly say I exactly know how many deer I killed since my pap sent me out to get "Mother"some burger meat with a .22 when I was about 8 years old, but I was a deer killing machine for the next 25 or 30 years...not proud of it nor ashamed that was a different era back then . And even though the Bunny Cops must have known what was going on around the county on the dairy farms, we never got any grief about it.
But this stuff that passes for tv hunting for whitetail today has done a heck of a lot more to ruin hunting than any of us farm kids ever did. My family ate what we killed never wasted a fork full of meat but so many today do not eat any of it...pull off the cape cutoff skull plate and haul it out to the dump not even donating it to the needy. A darn disgrace! Then they proclaim, " done in this state" and speed off to the next prebaited, prehung stand done by a caretaker who calls himself a guide.
An even that type of tv hunting has run it's course and today they put some bobble head big boobed blonde in the tree to sell their vendors scrap.
Yep! The cull crowd is on a self serving mission that will lead to the end of hunting like it SHOULD BE!

BTW I MUST ADMIT I AIN'T SO OLD I DO NOT ENJOY LOOKING AT BIG BOOBED BLONDES!

The only place I've heard "cull" bucks mentioned is on big ranches that cater to a lot of hunters, and are very attuned to producing larger antlered bucks for their clientele. One way of doing that is to charge much less, or otherwise encourage, the taking of mature deer that are less than what they wish to be breeding their does.

The deer numbers have exploded in the US from what they were 5-6 decades ago. In the early 1940s with the first Arkansas deer season that required tagging the deer, there were 500 deer tagged. Last year, over 200,000 were tagged. We don't have many "deer-hunting-ranches" like Texas, or Kansas, or Colorado. Those huge ranches necessarily have plans in place to weed-out the deer without good genes for antlers--IOW, culling.
On my small acreage in Arkansas, I don't encourage anyone to take anything but good bucks or does. State has a 6 point rule in place, but I encourage people not to shoot the young 6 pointers. but if I saw an older buck that had poor antlers, I would likely take him out to eliminate his chances of passing on bad genes. He'd still be good eating, of course. But that could qualify as "culling" in most people's minds.

Only other time I heard "cull" used around here was when a young man wanted to hunt "culls" on my land. I knew he meant any deer that was too small, or too big, or too average, so refused his offer.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. However, around here ,things are a lot different than when I was a kid. I can see more deer in a day than I could see in a whole season when I was a kid. That has certainly changed things.


I have my own place. I have spent a lot of time and money trying to inprove the health of the deer herd. I could have shot 20 bucks last year. I shot 2.

I see nothing wrong when one is my age, having killed as many as I have killed in my life in trying to improve the herd. If I come across some genetic defect or inferior buck, I try and let some kid shoot it rather than let it continue to effect the gene pool. It seems senseless to do anything else. Otherwise, why spend the money and put out the effort?

I own ground in several states Pa., NY., Me., Col., Mt. and Tx. I or family members hunt all of it an much of it I allow others permission to use for free. But on all that land ...around 9500 acres, I never killed any animal other than varmints I would refer to as a cull. They are hunted fairly on non high fence properties an I am grateful for the challenge of the hunt.

quote:

so many today do not eat any of it...pull off the cape cutoff skull plate and haul it out to the dump not even donating it to the needy.

If you know where this is going on you should report it.
I can't think of a single state where this is a legal practice or even casually acceptable for that matter.
The guilty party would surely lose his hunting privileges in several states.
If you know that this is occurring by not reporting it may make you an accessory.
If not it makes a good story I guess.

Well you are wrong once again, here in Pa. the law read "must be removed from field an disposed of properly."How you dispose of it properly is your business. I do not condone waste of resource but as you elude to the law is the law. If you do not agree with it get it changed.

I won't have much luck changing the law in PA, I live in CO and it is a definite violation here.
You should know that as well if you have hunting land here.

Just outside of Meeker Rio Blanco county flat tops area .

Growing up in my teens any deer was a trophy. Every year the Monday after Thanksgiving is opening day rifle in Pa. What an exciting time it was. My very first day I missed a Y-buck and a good 8 point. Told my dad this is better than rabbit hunting. It took me six long years and a lot of misses before I actually connected. Took a very good 4 point with the other side broken off. It tipped nearly 200 lbs field dressed on the scale. About 5 years ago had my 25 year class reunion. Two classmates still remember that buck I took.

Fast forward now and I have become picky. Shot enough basket rack buck and personally rather shoot a doe. We lost our little honey hole my monster-in-law had when we moved out and bought our first house. Most of the property was house pastures but, about 2 acres were wooded (which adjoined a larger area of woods). Started putting in little 400 sq ft food plot. In those last few years we would have a couple bucks that would always go 125" with a few being bigger. Even though we weren't successful in getting most of those deer it was nice seeing the fruits of my labor.

Now I'm reliant on my neighbor taking my wife and me hunting. 3 years ago I passed on a decent 3 year old. He gave me a bunch of grief for not shooting it and said the Amish will probably just shot it. Told him the same as above that I've shot my fair share. Unfortunately never even connected that year. Frustrating having stands A or B and pick wrong every time I went hunt. Still have been unsuccessful in my search for another hunting property. Most of the Amish farms the family hunts or they lease it out. Horse people and farms is a nightmare in itself.

Chester county is a tough place to find hunting access. A lot of guys from down there run up to the north central part of the state to the area I own land in still plenty of open land an enough deer to hunt.

Most of our differences are just different understandings of what we refer to as "cull"

quote:

Most of our differences are just different understandings of what we refer to as "cull"

I agree.
I think another point is that some of the posters here are in their mid 70's and 60 years ago when they were 12-14 years old deer were hard to come by.
Today we reap the benefits of 60-80 years of sound deer management and all across this country Deer populations are higher than they have ever been.
This coupled with nationwide prosperity (food and wealth and income abounds)the "need" to kill the first legal deer you see for food is non existent, your family will make it without that buck.
With that said I need to add that my family hunts, we also eat what we kill (deer elk antelope, no I don't eat prairie dogs or coyotes) we enjoy game meat and eat it as much as 4 nights a week. The meat is part of the experience, yet we are in search of bigger and bigger antlers. I think this teaches my sons to be selective and show restraint.
2 years ago my 2 sons passed on at least 30+ shootable bucks looking for bigger than they had previously killed.
Nothing wrong with that.
The last day of the season my youngest boy killed a buck that some would call a "cull", no matter how old he got he would never pass on good genetics for big horns in the area we hunt. It wasn't the buck he had hoped all season for but it was a good buck and eliminated a buck that would pass along inferior horns.
We took him home and ate him.
I see no problem with that

Load of crap! There are many paths to nirvana, yours is and was not the only way.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Load of crap! There are many paths to nirvana, yours is and was not the only way.

Very insightful and well thought out addition to any conversation, thanks for contributing to the adult discussion.

When someone says something worth a moments thought, I'll respond appropriately. This self-described rant did not, but your comments are up to the general level of the thread.

Here we go again and I hadn't even made a post on this thread, LOL!

The changes in deer hunting have if nothing else put more emphasis on actually managing deer numbers and overall herd health.

As us older hunters die off and as Public attitudes toward hunting continue sliding toward the negative side, hunting will go thru changes, just as it has been for the past 3 decades.

I am a pessimist, and really do not see a "Rosy" future for hunting of any kind on Public Land and the only hunting that may be available by 2030 or 2050 will be on Privately Owned/High Fenced Properties.

In my opinion there are lots of things wrong with deer hunting today.

I think that with better deer management that just getting a deer is no longer the difficulty it used to be...

However, I still see lots of first timers holding out for a buck...even though they have lots of opportunities at does, and does are a legal option in the area... and they expect me to be impressed when they come in with a spike or two year old forkhorm? Bugger that. Those guys are not allowed back.

I do see a loss of still hunting. I can’t do it. My land isn’t big enough, and with a stand every 100 yards or so on public land, good luck with that. It might work in less dense areas, but my “biggest deer” I never got to keep. I shot him on my land, and he ran maybe 50 yards and died on the border of my property. Some ass ran up and tagged him. The DNR said that he may have trespassed (gave him a verbal warning) but as his tag was on the deer, it was his deer.

Behavior like this makes more and more people much less likely to let anyone on their land, and competitiveness being what it is, you tell someone that they are welcome to shoot does on your property, 99.99% will sit and shoot a buck anyhow, and then complain when you won’t let them back for any reason.

And a lot of Private Land Owners don't allow hunters to get out and simply wander around hoping to get a shot at something, too easy to end up getting sued for all sorts of unnecessary actions on the part of the hunter.

I think I hear the world's smallest violin playing in the background over this rant!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I think I hear the world's smallest violin playing in the background over this rant!

Rant---What rant? LOL!

I also agree with the OP.
it's not really that way here.
private is private and good luck getting permission.
there is a lot of public land, and a lot of public hunters.
you pretty much take what you can get and then work your butt off getting him to the truck.

it took me over 4 hours to get my Buck out last year and it was pretty much all down hill.
I ended up cutting across a piece of un posted private property the last 1/4 mile and flagging down a passing truck with a couple of younger guy's in it to help me load the thing.

they stopped more because they seen I had a deer than to help.
there was no discussion about the antler size, it was,,, where did you get him?
holy cow that's back in there.
well that's where they are.
yeah.... we know,[looking at the dirt],, but.

hey,,, just do what I did, pack in and cold camp over night then wait them out at first light in the morning, the other hunters are pushing them over into the private property around here already.

[quiet stares all around]

well we better get going.... yeah we better go.

I appreciate the hand,, see you guy's later.

Hunting for anything in America is going to continue to evolve and decline over the next few decades due to changes in the Publics attitudes about hunmting, older hunters dying off or becoming physically unable to hunt due to declining health and declining recruitment of young people into hunting.

There really is no One Specific Cause but a combination of factors that are working together that are eventually going to bring about the end of hunting the way many of us grew up loving.

I firmly believe that at some point in the not real distant future much of the hunting in America will be available only on high fenced properties.

Yes, things are changing CHC, but in no way is high fenced or private land hunting going to be the only hunting there is for a long, long time to come. You are way too much of a pessimist and it really doesn't help the cause when you have such a negative attitude towards things--- JMHO Bro!

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
When someone says something worth a moments thought, I'll respond appropriately. This self-described rant did not, but your comments are up to the general level of the thread.

This coming from a guy who bought an absolutely outstanding hunting dog and did absolutely shit with him. Wish I still had that dog.

quote:

JMHO Bro!

And you are welcome to your opinion, and I sincerely hope I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

Hunting is no longer an important part of life for most people and that is not going to change for the better.

Not enough new hunters are being recruited to take the place of those of us that no longer can hunt as we did 20 or 30 years ago or those of us that are dying off.

Yes, I am a pessimist, but I am also a realist and I do not see enough young hunters being recruited to keep hunting a viable activity.

If this is true CHC then who in the hell is drawing all the damn tags in Colorado, it sure ain't old duffers that are getting all the Sheep, Goat and Moose tags...

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
If this is true CHC then who in the hell is drawing all the damn tags in Colorado, it sure ain't old duffers that are getting all the Sheep, Goat and Moose tags...

That can be said of every other western state too. Wyoming has had an overall increase in big game hunting applications the last two years of more than 11% by residents and especially nonresidents!!!

I have no idea what the deal is in Colorado or Wyoming, hope it remains that good, but things are not that good in other parts of America.

It very easily/realistically could be that the numbers of non-residents applying could be an indication that hunting opportunities in their home states have decreased, cause and effect situation.

Some folks are noticing the changes others aren't, I personally have been watching it here in Texas for 20 years now, and I know Texas isn't the Universe, but I have talked to hunters that don't live in Texas anmd have read comments here on AR in various discussions apart from this one where people were expressing their observations/opinions on the changes taking place with hunting here in America.