recent lion taken with/by Sullivan

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Brad,

I am not an expert on lion hunting. I am not an expert on lion aging. I have never professed to be either and I don't play one on TV. I am a veterinarian and board certified veterinary surgeon. I am qualified to examine radiographs, animal body parts, and scientific data. I work with some who are experts in lion hunting, lion aging, and lion ecology in general. In regards to this lion...I can show you comments from those who have dedicated their lives to lion science and developing aging techniques for post-mortem lion (see names in previous post). One of my best friends in the world is a licensed PH in Zim & TZ. He has been licensed in Zim for 29 years...he shares our opinion and is a consulting member of LCTF. Another good friend and consultant of LCTF is a PH from Zim & TZ who is the manager of one of the larger Companies in TZ who specializes in lion hunting. Bwanamich also affiliated with TZ lion hunting is another LCTF consultant.

A lot of experience form hunting and science to reference there.

Quit making this about me and concentrate on the lion.

I have already stated that I am ready to back up my assertion that the lion in question is NOT 12. Shawn can observe and if I am incorrect...he can post it right here for all to see.

Get over you obscession with me Brad and do something contructive.

-Ok Lane thanks! Perhaps you could insert his name for me in the proper location below so it is clear. It would help me to better understand:

Consulting Experts
-The LCTF consulting experts (Craig Packer, & Paula white)

Team that Guides Opinion
-The team that guides your opinion (Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter)

Consultant
-Affiliated with lion hunting

Thanks,
Shawn

Shawn Joyce
Diizche Safari Adventures
P.O. Box 1445
Lincoln, CA 95648
E-mail: shawn.joyce@diizchesafariadventures.net
Cell: (916) 804-3318

Shoot Straight, Live the Dream, and Keep Turning the Pages to Your Next Adventure!™
Website- www.DiizcheSafariAdventures.com
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Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

ledvm

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posted

Scientists in which LTCF consult
-Craig Packer, Paula White, Karyl Whitman, Jim Derr, Paul Funston, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, Luke Hunter, and Myself.

Team that Guides Opinion
- Aaron Neilson and Lane Easter

Hunting Professionals in which LCTF Consults
-too numerous to count but some: Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, Bwanamich, Danny McCullum, Robin Hurt, Kevin Robertson, and Nigel Theisen to name a few.

Bwanamich and Kevin Robertson really fall into first and last.

Posts: 38632 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Scientists in which LTCF consult
-Craig Packer, Paula White, Karyl Whitman, Jim Derr, Paul Funston, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, Luke Hunter, and Myself.

Team that Guides Opinion
- Aaron Neilson and Lane Easter

Hunting Professionals in which LCTF Consults
-too numerous to count but some: Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, Bwanamich, Danny McCullum, Robin Hurt, Kevin Robertson, and Nigel Theisen to name a few.

Bwanamich and Kevin Robertson really fall into first and last.

Lane you kind of changed things up a bit on me. Thanks for attempting to clarify. Earlier you posted:

Almost NO PH has the expertise to age a post-mortem lion.
And...every person who IS an expert on aging a post-mortem lion has NEVER shot one.
And, nobody could shoot enough lions in a lifetime to make them an expert.

Craig Packer & Paula White are consulting experts.

Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter (whom I consider friends as well but don't know them personally as well) are all on the LCTF team of experts that guide our opinions.

Now you have revised this to (and you certainly should if your prior information was not fully accurate):

Scientists in which LTCF (sic) Consult
-Craig Packer, Paula White, Karyl Whitman, Paul Funston, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, Luke Hunter, and Myself. Add Bwanamich, Kevin Robertson, and Lane Easter.

Team that Guides Opinion
- Aaron Neilson and Lane Easter

Hunting Experts in which LCTF Consults
-too numerous to count but some: Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, Bwanamich, Danny McCullum, Robin Hurt, Kevin Robertson, and Nigel Theisen to name a few. Add Bwanamich and Kevin Robertson.

Bwanamich and Kevin Robertson really fall into first and last.

So judging from the above it is obvious to me at least that the people you have placed in the newly titled category “Scientists in Which LCTF Consult” are not all qualified to provide expert opinion about lion aging. I come to that conclusion using your statements above and also your previous affirmation that you are not an expert on lion hunting or aging lion.

Perhaps you could further separate the new category you have created “Scientists in which LCTF Consult” into a subcategory “Consulting Scientist Experts Qualified to Age Lion for LCTF.”

Thanks,
Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

ledvm

One of Us

posted

Shawn,
With all due respect sir...unless you have a question on something that actually pertains to something...preferably regarding a lion...I am done. I you want the last post in the thread just post another meaningless post and I will leave it be.

You refuse to see my point or realize what I said about Mark's lion was correct...and...that is your prerogative.

Carry on sir.

Posts: 38632 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Shawn,
With all due respect sir...unless you have a question on something that actually pertains to something...preferably regarding a lion...I am done. I you want the last post in the thread just post another meaningless post and I will leave it be.

You refuse to see my point or realize what I said about Mark's lion was correct...and...that is your prerogative.

Carry on sir.

Lane,

I am sorry that you view my posts as having been meaningless. They are all surrounding the aging of the lion that I posted and to which you responded regarding its estimated age (provided by Mark Sullivan). I will simply summarize from my perspective.

When I posted the picture, you provided detailed comments about the lion’s age based upon details that the experts you later quoted said required additional photos for a proper estimate. That makes me conclude they were your personal opinions to which you later said you were not qualified as an expert to give.

You went on to define the consulting experts (two scientists) and the supporting team of experts that guide your opinions. You later began to pull in a number of people that you defined as being affiliated with hunting and also as LCTF consultants that shared “your opinion.” I can only assume this was to suggest they were qualified to provide opinion about aging lion since that is what the topic has been about.

You then posted personal commentary and opinion intermixed with the consulting experts’ opinion. Just for the record, I fully understand and respect the point and opinion of the group you at that time identified as the consulting experts, whose message you delivered:

Until proper evaluation of the skull is done and and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolar are made...the only truthful remarks that could be made are: "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is."

It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.

My entire point is that an age range was provided by the consulting experts, along with the side of that range that they believe is likely the most accurate. They also say it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics. I have no problem with this at all and understand it fully.

You went on to say that from the consulting experts’ opinion that the bottom line is “It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish.” That is leaving out a very significant caveat they provided “but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.” You also suggested that I had said the lion was 12 which is incorrect. I have never offered any guess as a personal opinion about the lion’s age.

As the thread moved along you have now restructured and added names. I assume to imply they are qualified experts at aging and I am not ok with it simply being inferred. The waters were muddied by you so please clear them. That way we can all plainly see when someone presents their information we know it is either:

-An unqualified opinion on aging (personal opinion)
-Information being presented that rises to the level of being scientific consulting expert opinion from a person qualified to age lion for LCTF
-or a message being delivered for a qualified LCTF expert scientist at aging.

I would like to know who of the group you have now relabeled as Scientists in which LCTF Consults are qualified to age lion for LCTF. My reason is as I outlined above. It is not meant as an attack but rather as a way to separate and decipher what are personal opinions of those you pull into the conversation versus information from qualified LCTF scientists actually qualified to age lion for LCTF.

I will give you the last word on this thread.

Respectfully,
Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

Bwanamich

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posted

Can I have the last word? Please?

Shawn, it is MY PERSONAL OPINION that that lion is closer to 6 than 12. Once or if Mark's client has it aged by lion aging experts like Craig Packer, Paula White et alia, pls be so kind as to request Mark or his client to post the age of this lion. If my personal opinion above is wrong, then I will gladly buy you dinner and drinks for the evening at one of the future shows. If I am right, would you consider to stop being so "anal" about language and grammar used on AR?

Lastly, what is YOUR OPINION on the age of that lion?

PS- My use of the word "guess" in my previous post followed by the icon was meant to be tongue in cheek

"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset

Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003

Ignored post by Bwanamich posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Can I have the last word? Please?

Shawn, it is MY PERSONAL OPINION that that lion is closer to 6 than 12. Once or if Mark's client has it aged by lion aging experts like Craig Packer, Paula White et alia, pls be so kind as to request Mark or his client to post the age of this lion. If my personal opinion above is wrong, then I will gladly buy you dinner and drinks for the evening at one of the future shows. If I am right, would you consider to stop being so "anal" about language and grammar used on AR?

Lastly, what is YOUR OPINION on the age of that lion?

PS- My use of the word "guess" in my previous post followed by the icon was meant to be tongue in cheek

Hi Bwanamich,

I appreciate the dinner offer, I am always hungry and I am also Irish so that covers the other aspect too. Thanks Bwana! I felt rather reluctant to post this reply, especially after telling Lane he could have the last word but I did not want to appear rude by ignoring you. So perhaps we can both let Lane have the next slot if he chooses to take it after my comment. I do not want to keep adding to the thread. However, if Mark’s client chooses to have his lion skull aged I will be sure to post the age of the lion on this thread.

I am not an expert at judging/aging lion and my personal opinion is just that and represents nothing more. From my perspective it carries no weight in this conversation as the discussion is about comparing the scientist consultant aging experts’ opinion with Mark’s field estimate.

When I first saw the images of the lion that I posted I was immediately impressed. I thought it was indeed a great lion, a lion of a hunting lifetime, and certainly was well past the 6 year threshold of being a huntable lion. I have seen lions in the bush with Mark before but this would compare with those as the best I have personally seen. I knew it was a very special lion indeed.

Mark had taught me previously the importance of a lion’s face and nose and to understand that they say a great deal. You never have the benefit of the skull until the lion is dead. Additionally, he taught me to appreciate the nose spot patterns and understand that they are very important to consider when judging lions. I do not understand the nuances of this feature while aging but Mark does. I was interested to see that nose patterns and their importance was also brought up in a post referring to Dr. Begg’s lion research and observations in a parallel thread with Mark’s ten lion photos posted. I was trying, on that thread, to encourage that topic discussion but it seems to have stalled.

I write every day professionally and work with numerous consultants reviewing their written word and expert comments. Additionally, I also write about hunting and my work has been used by others so attention to detail and accuracy in my writing when discussing facts is important.

This attention to detail has caused me to ask Lane to clearly identify his scientist consultant aging experts that provide LCTF aging expert opinions. Diluting the expert opinion by presenting one’s own opinion intermixed as Lane did is not valuable when you have identified yourself as a non-expert at aging. Pulling others into the conversation to use their personal opinions alluded to be something more is not beneficial either. I have no problem with a personal opinion in an expert aging discussion as long as it is clearly defined as such. Just as you and I have done.

My discussion has focused primarily on clearly defining the scientist consultant expert aging opinion separate from the non-expert personal opinion being provided regarding the estimates. It is very important and valuable information and it should not be diminished or diluted. If we are talking expert aging information it is important to stick to the aging experts' facts. It is not about language and grammar.

Cheers Bwana,
Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

ledvm

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posted

Shawn,
All I will add is this. I will gladly match my knowledge base level and expertise on aging a dead lion with Marks.

Posts: 38632 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

505 gibbs

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posted

quote:
Shawn,
All I will add is this. I will gladly match my knowledge base level and expertise on aging a dead lion with Marks.

Obviously! Perhaps a better barometer would be if anyone else with pertinent knowledge would.

Posts: 5203 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted