recent lion taken with/by Sullivan

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posted

Lane below in red:

quote:
Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

I appreciate you narratively diagraming the typical path/flow of information from the LCTF consulting experts (Craig Packer, & Paula white), the team that guides your opinion (Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter), and how you and Aaron speak with these members with regularity.

I have to say that I feel more confused after reading the excerpts I pulled from your posts about the photo I posted of this lion. What I get from all of it is that we should only say the lion or most any lion that is appropriate to kill is 6 or older and that any estimation beyond that is inaccurate and therefore should not be made.

Shawn, The bolded words above are not mine. Until proper evaluation of the skull is done and and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolar are made...the only truthful remarks that could be made are: "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is".

Anything above that is a wild guess.

When statistics dictate that the chance of this lion being 12 are extremely slim...I think it is harmful to make a statement saying that: "this lion is 12". It lends credibility to the people looking to list the lion as endangerd that hunters do NOT know what they are talking about.

I apologize in advance because I know this is sounding confrontational but I would like to know some specifics. I would like to know who specifically, as an expert of the LCTF, that has the ability to judge the actual age of this lion simply by the photograph I posted, has stated professionally that this lion is not 12 and is likely 6 or 7?

Shawn, In the past...I posted some e-mail strings from some of the scientists. People on this list went 'to higher-ups' in SCI and ask them to cut funding to their projects. It caused these scientists some serious grief...and I felt really bad for the predicament I had put them in. Thus, I am not going to be any more specific that this. Two of the people listed in the first paragraph of your quote above saw your initial post. They both agreed without any prompting by me that Marks lion was well younger than 12. They then sent me an e-mail {excerpt from said e-mail: Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.} asking me to look for myself and IF I agreed to please post a remark saying that that the lion is well younger than 12. I have forwarded this e-mail string to Aaron Neilson. He can verify that what I say is true.

Shawn,
There are 3 people besides myself that are members of AR that I know personally have spent a great deal of time learning about lion ages. Two of those have opined in your thread that 12 is a gross overestimation of age for this lion. The 3rd remains silent publically but has voiced his opinion privately to agree.

I have offered reasoning from the photo of why we have the opinion that we do. Others (as stated above), with aging training, have agreed with my opinion.

The only reasoning you have provided in this process is that Mark Sullivan says it is. While I think the lion is truly a lion of a lifetime in these days and times and I applaud the hunter whom took it...I reject the notion of this lion being a 12 year old. And, making such statements publicly goes a long way to discredit us as hunters with people in control of our destiny...such as the leaders of USF&W.

Sincerely,
Lane

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.

Posts: 38500 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

Aaron Neilson

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Lane below in red:

quote:
Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

I appreciate you narratively diagraming the typical path/flow of information from the LCTF consulting experts (Craig Packer, & Paula white), the team that guides your opinion (Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter), and how you and Aaron speak with these members with regularity.

I have to say that I feel more confused after reading the excerpts I pulled from your posts about the photo I posted of this lion. What I get from all of it is that we should only say the lion or most any lion that is appropriate to kill is 6 or older and that any estimation beyond that is inaccurate and therefore should not be made.

Shawn, The bolded words above are not mine. Until proper evaluation of the skull is done and and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolar are made...the only truthful remarks that could be made are: "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is".

Anything above that is a wild guess.

When statistics dictate that the chance of this lion being 12 are extremely slim...I think it is harmful to make a statement saying that: "this lion is 12". It lends credibility to the people looking to list the lion as endangerd that hunters do NOT know what they are talking about.

I apologize in advance because I know this is sounding confrontational but I would like to know some specifics. I would like to know who specifically, as an expert of the LCTF, that has the ability to judge the actual age of this lion simply by the photograph I posted, has stated professionally that this lion is not 12 and is likely 6 or 7?

Shawn, In the past...I posted some e-mail strings from some of the scientists. People on this list went 'to higher-ups' in SCI and ask them to cut funding to their projects. It caused these scientists some serious grief...and I felt really bad for the predicament I had put them in. Thus, I am not going to be any more specific that this. Two of the people listed in the first paragraph of your quote above saw your initial post. They both agreed without any prompting by me that Marks lion was well younger than 12. They then sent me an e-mail {excerpt from said e-mail: Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.} asking me to look for myself and IF I agreed to please post a remark saying that that the lion is well younger than 12. I have forwarded this e-mail string to Aaron Neilson. He can verify that what I say is true.

Shawn,
There are 3 people besides myself that are members of AR that I know personally have spent a great deal of time learning about lion ages. Two of those have opined in your thread that 12 is a gross overestimation of age for this lion. The 3rd remains silent publically but has voiced his opinion privately to agree.

I have offered reasoning from the photo of why we have the opinion that we do. Others (as stated above), with aging training, have agreed with my opinion.

The only reasoning you have provided in this process is that Mark Sullivan says it is. While I think the lion is truly a lion of a lifetime in these days and times and I applaud the hunter whom took it...I reject the notion of this lion being a 12 year old. And, making such statements publicly goes a long way to discredit us as hunters with people in control of our destiny...such as the leaders of USF&W.

Sincerely,
Lane

Shawn - I can confirm that a couple of the "expert" scientists, as well as another AR member that many here would certainly consider an "expert", have looked at, and commented on the lion photo you posted. All agree that the original age estimation is highly unlikely, and all agree the lion is likely 6+ yrs of age.

Frankly, and strictly IMO of course - this one is very simple. One look at the teeth, knowing he's a wild lion would give clear indication that this lion is no where near 12 yrs old!

Secondly, anyone with real knowledge of life estimation/expectancy of "wild" lions would clearly know that "if" a wild lion was to live to the age of 12, his entire/overall health & condition would likely be much worse than this very big/healthy lion.

Lastly, anyone with real knowledge of wild lions would also know just how rare/unlikely it would be for a lion to actually reach the age of 12!

With all that said, I of certainly could be wrong. But of course, the only way to know for sure - would be to let the scientists officially age him.

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009

Ignored post by Aaron Neilson posted

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posted

Lane,

I understand that you reject the notion regarding the age estimate of this lion by Mark Sullivan after conferring with the LCTF consulting experts but as you say yourself, you are not an expert at aging lion. You are certainly entitled to your personal opinion and I have no problem with it and would fight for your right to express it when it is represented as personal opinion.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that a PH with 24 years of experience with lions in Tanzania (Mark Sullivan), providing an estimate of field age drawing from his experiences, goes a long way to discredit hunters simply because you say statistics dictate that the chance of this lion being 12 are extremely slim. You provided two examples of how this is problematic but those two examples show that the animal is greater than six and that scientific testing is needed to pinpoint the actual age (quote excerpts directly below).

As you provided, the LCTF expert position from the specific unidentified source of two LCTF consulting experts, "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is."

You add the LCTF expert position, from the specific unidentified source of two LCTF consulting experts, “Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.”

What I personally conclude from the above expert comments you provided is that the consulting experts believe the lion is greater than six, likely less than 12, but it is impossible to provide a more definitive estimate than this without more and better pictures of the teeth and skull. I also conclude they affirm that the only way to be certain it is not closer to 12 is through evaluating the skull and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolars.

Aaron, I did not intend on dragging you into this conversation but since you come willingly I will reply. You mentioned “I can confirm that a couple of the expert scientists…have looked at, and commented on the lion photo you posted. “ Aaron, I appreciate your affirming this but if Lane says that the LCTF consulting experts have done so I accept Lane’s word that this has occurred. Lane is a gentleman and professional and I have no reason not to accept his word.

With all due respect and not to minimize your experiences, the vast majority of your experience with lion is as a hunter client with limited PH field experience. That hunter client experience is valuable to be sure but is not what I am discussing. I do appreciate that you offer several personal opinions about what “anyone with real knowledge” would conclude. That is my point entirely.

If the only people capable of properly estimating the age range of this lion, which has crossed the threshold characteristics of being 6+, are the two LCTF consulting experts then let’s clearly identify their expert opinions.

If others, such as you, Lane, and those on AR that are affiliated with LCTF (but are not LCTF consulting experts at aging lion) make comments about age, why not clearly identify those estimates as personal opinions and not expert opinion.

Aaron, you go on to say “anyone with real knowledge” and offer two comments, followed up by saying “With all that said, I of certainly (sic) could be wrong.”

My point is this; the waters get easily muddied and cause confusion because you and Lane speak as the voice of LCTF. When you go on to make personal comment it would be helpful to clearly identify it as such especially when those comments are intermixed with the LCTF consulting experts opinion. It becomes unclear what is personal opinion rather than LCTF consulting expert position. For me it is confusing and can easily be misunderstood.

I do not want my relationship with you and Lane to take on the tone of being confrontational so perhaps we can agree to disagree. I will buy you both a beverage of your choice at SCI if you are willing to accept.

Thanks for letting me say my piece and I have enjoyed hearing your perspective as well as the LCTF consulting expert position. I hope we can continue to work together for the good of hunting and conservation.

Best always,
Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

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posted

Shawn,
If you want to believe the lion is 12 sir...carry on. At least it is likely well into the harvestable age category. I tried to point out why it was irresponsible to make such claims...but hey you too are entitled to your opinion.

It is a nice lion. Congrats to Mark and the hunter who took it!

Posts: 38500 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Shawn,
If you want to believe the lion is 12 sir...carry on. At least it is likely well into the harvestable age category. I tried to point out why it was irresponsible to make such claims...but hey you too are entitled to your opinion.

It is a nice lion. Congrats to Mark and the hunter who took it!

Lane,

I never suggested that I was an expert at aging lion and I certainly have not offered any guess as a personal opinion regarding this lion's age.

The LCTF consultant experts that you have cited have said it is well above the legal minimum but impossible to estimate the age without additional photos.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Shawn,
If you want to believe the lion is 12 sir...carry on. At least it is likely well into the harvestable age category. I tried to point out why it was irresponsible to make such claims...but hey you too are entitled to your opinion.

It is a nice lion. Congrats to Mark and the hunter who took it!

Lane,

I never suggested that I was an expert at aging lion and I certainly have not offered any guess as a personal opinion regarding this lion's age.

The LCTF consultant experts that you have cited have said it is well above the legal minimum but impossible to estimate the age without additional photos.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Shawn

Shawn,

Please sir quote what I actually say. They all have said that there is no way that the lion is 12 or even very close. They said it was impossible to give an accurate estimate of it exact age without examining more photos, the skull, and an x-ray of the tooth. But they did all agree that it's phenotypic characteristics did put it into the huntable category.

Posts: 38500 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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posted

Lane,

I based my above posted comment, “The LCTF consultant experts that you have cited have said it is well above the legal minimum but impossible to estimate the age without additional photos,” from the two paragraphs below which I pulled directly from your post near the top of this page that you made in red font:

Until proper evaluation of the skull is done and and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolar are made...the only truthful remarks that could be made are: "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is" ( my post comment “well above the legal minimum”).

Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull ( my comment “impossible to estimate the age without additional photos").

Sorry if this appears to be misleading, that was not my intention.

Thanks,
Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish,

Shawn

The above portion of the quote is the bottom line. And the just of all my posts.

Good day sir!

Posts: 38500 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

505 gibbs

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posted

Posts: 5199 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted

Bwanamich

one of us

posted

Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing

around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset

Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003

Ignored post by Bwanamich posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

I understand and appreciate your guess and also understand what Lane is implying. With that being said, non-expert guesses intermixed with personal opinions presented when speaking for an organization only help to blur the consultant experts’ opinions and serve to muddy the waters.

I do not disagree with the need to be as accurate as possible when estimating but I am not an expert in that area and that is why I have not offered comment about the lion’s age. The consultant experts have provided an age range and gone further to say that within that range it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull. To me that is very clear.

Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

I understand and appreciate your guess and also understand what Lane is implying. With that being said, non-expert guesses intermixed with personal opinions presented when speaking for an organization only help to blur the consultant experts’ opinions and serve to muddy the waters.

I do not disagree with the need to be as accurate as possible when estimating but I am not an expert in that area and that is why I have not offered comment about the lion’s age. The consultant experts have provided an age range and gone further to say that within that range it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull. To me that is very clear.

Shawn

In the court of law...Bwanamich would be considered an expert...I can assure you of that.

Posts: 38500 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

I understand and appreciate your guess and also understand what Lane is implying. With that being said, non-expert guesses intermixed with personal opinions presented when speaking for an organization only help to blur the consultant experts’ opinions and serve to muddy the waters.

I do not disagree with the need to be as accurate as possible when estimating but I am not an expert in that area and that is why I have not offered comment about the lion’s age. The consultant experts have provided an age range and gone further to say that within that range it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull. To me that is very clear.

Shawn

In the court of law...Bwanamich would be considered an expert...I can assure you of that.

I really hate to keep being repetitive as it becomes rather non-intellectual and boring to hear the same thing over and over while dancing around the LCTF consulting experts’ stated position. I have posted that things easily become unclear and muddled when personal opinion is mixed in with consulting expert position.

You previously stated that the LCTF consulting experts are Craig Packer, & Paula white, and affirmed the team that guides your opinion is Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter, and also how you speak with these members regularly.

So is Bwanamich a LCTF consulting expert or is he simply offering a personal opinion which he himself qualifies in his post as a guess? If he is a LCTF consulting expert I will add his name to the list.

Thanks,
Shawn

Posts: 874 | Location: Northern CA | Registered: 24 January 2010

Ignored post by ExpressYourself posted

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posted

I will let Bwanamich speak for hisself. I just happen to know his level of knowledge, training, and experience and he would qualify as an expert. His opinion is far from a guess. He is actually probably one of the world's leading experts on the whole of history, hunting, ecology, and politics of lion in Tanzania.

Posts: 38500 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted