quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

I appreciate you narratively diagraming the typical path/flow of information from the LCTF consulting experts (Craig Packer, & Paula white), the team that guides your opinion (Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter), and how you and Aaron speak with these members with regularity.


I have to say that I feel more confused after reading the excerpts I pulled from your posts about the photo I posted of this lion. What I get from all of it is that we should only say the lion or most any lion that is appropriate to kill is 6 or older and that any estimation beyond that is inaccurate and therefore should not be made.

Shawn, The bolded words above are not mine. Until proper evaluation of the skull is done and and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolar are made...the only truthful remarks that could be made are: "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is".

Anything above that is a wild guess.

When statistics dictate that the chance of this lion being 12 are extremely slim...I think it is harmful to make a statement saying that: "this lion is 12". It lends credibility to the people looking to list the lion as endangerd that hunters do NOT know what they are talking about.

I apologize in advance because I know this is sounding confrontational but I would like to know some specifics. I would like to know who specifically, as an expert of the LCTF, that has the ability to judge the actual age of this lion simply by the photograph I posted, has stated professionally that this lion is not 12 and is likely 6 or 7?

Shawn, In the past...I posted some e-mail strings from some of the scientists. People on this list went 'to higher-ups' in SCI and ask them to cut funding to their projects. It caused these scientists some serious grief...and I felt really bad for the predicament I had put them in. Thus, I am not going to be any more specific that this. Two of the people listed in the first paragraph of your quote above saw your initial post. They both agreed without any prompting by me that Marks lion was well younger than 12. They then sent me an e-mail {excerpt from said e-mail: Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.} asking me to look for myself and IF I agreed to please post a remark saying that that the lion is well younger than 12. I have forwarded this e-mail string to Aaron Neilson. He can verify that what I say is true.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Lane below in red:

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

I appreciate you narratively diagraming the typical path/flow of information from the LCTF consulting experts (Craig Packer, & Paula white), the team that guides your opinion (Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter), and how you and Aaron speak with these members with regularity.


I have to say that I feel more confused after reading the excerpts I pulled from your posts about the photo I posted of this lion. What I get from all of it is that we should only say the lion or most any lion that is appropriate to kill is 6 or older and that any estimation beyond that is inaccurate and therefore should not be made.

Shawn, The bolded words above are not mine. Until proper evaluation of the skull is done and and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolar are made...the only truthful remarks that could be made are: "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is".

Anything above that is a wild guess.

When statistics dictate that the chance of this lion being 12 are extremely slim...I think it is harmful to make a statement saying that: "this lion is 12". It lends credibility to the people looking to list the lion as endangerd that hunters do NOT know what they are talking about.

I apologize in advance because I know this is sounding confrontational but I would like to know some specifics. I would like to know who specifically, as an expert of the LCTF, that has the ability to judge the actual age of this lion simply by the photograph I posted, has stated professionally that this lion is not 12 and is likely 6 or 7?

Shawn, In the past...I posted some e-mail strings from some of the scientists. People on this list went 'to higher-ups' in SCI and ask them to cut funding to their projects. It caused these scientists some serious grief...and I felt really bad for the predicament I had put them in. Thus, I am not going to be any more specific that this. Two of the people listed in the first paragraph of your quote above saw your initial post. They both agreed without any prompting by me that Marks lion was well younger than 12. They then sent me an e-mail {excerpt from said e-mail: Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.} asking me to look for myself and IF I agreed to please post a remark saying that that the lion is well younger than 12. I have forwarded this e-mail string to Aaron Neilson. He can verify that what I say is true.

Shawn,
There are 3 people besides myself that are members of AR that I know personally have spent a great deal of time learning about lion ages. Two of those have opined in your thread that 12 is a gross overestimation of age for this lion. The 3rd remains silent publically but has voiced his opinion privately to agree.

I have offered reasoning from the photo of why we have the opinion that we do. Others (as stated above), with aging training, have agreed with my opinion.

The only reasoning you have provided in this process is that Mark Sullivan says it is. While I think the lion is truly a lion of a lifetime in these days and times and I applaud the hunter whom took it...I reject the notion of this lion being a 12 year old. And, making such statements publicly goes a long way to discredit us as hunters with people in control of our destiny...such as the leaders of USF&W.

Sincerely,
Lane

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Shawn,
If you want to believe the lion is 12 sir...carry on. At least it is likely well into the harvestable age category. I tried to point out why it was irresponsible to make such claims...but hey you too are entitled to your opinion.

It is a nice lion. Congrats to Mark and the hunter who took it!

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Shawn,
If you want to believe the lion is 12 sir...carry on. At least it is likely well into the harvestable age category. I tried to point out why it was irresponsible to make such claims...but hey you too are entitled to your opinion.

It is a nice lion. Congrats to Mark and the hunter who took it!

Lane,

I never suggested that I was an expert at aging lion and I certainly have not offered any guess as a personal opinion regarding this lion's age.

The LCTF consultant experts that you have cited have said it is well above the legal minimum but impossible to estimate the age without additional photos.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:


Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish,


Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

I understand and appreciate your guess and also understand what Lane is implying. With that being said, non-expert guesses intermixed with personal opinions presented when speaking for an organization only help to blur the consultant experts’ opinions and serve to muddy the waters.

I do not disagree with the need to be as accurate as possible when estimating but I am not an expert in that area and that is why I have not offered comment about the lion’s age. The consultant experts have provided an age range and gone further to say that within that range it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull. To me that is very clear.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Mark's claim that he believes this lion to be 12 years old could explain why he ended up shooting a well under 6 year old (I'm guessing around 3 year old) lion as shown in his video Use enough Death!

That is the danger that Lane and others are trying to point out with highly over estimating the age of a lion and trying to present that estimation as fact. If that is a 12 year old, then surely many lion that will look half as good as this one (i.e. 3 year old) will be passed as 6 years old and shot! BIG problem

I understand and appreciate your guess and also understand what Lane is implying. With that being said, non-expert guesses intermixed with personal opinions presented when speaking for an organization only help to blur the consultant experts’ opinions and serve to muddy the waters.

I do not disagree with the need to be as accurate as possible when estimating but I am not an expert in that area and that is why I have not offered comment about the lion’s age. The consultant experts have provided an age range and gone further to say that within that range it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull. To me that is very clear.

Shawn

In the court of law...Bwanamich would be considered an expert...I can assure you of that.