quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
Here is a lion that was killed yesterday in Tanzania. Mark asked me to post it up for him. I am not able to mention the specific area of the kill.



Mark felt the lion is likely 12 years plus. It is a fabulous lion to be certain. I thought some of you might enjoy seeing the photo.

Best regards,
Shawn

A couple of key points that can be seen in this photo that tells me this lion IS not near 12.

First the canines: These canines are really barely showing any wear at all. And, the left lower appears to have most of the canine ridge still present.

Secondly the incisors: He has a complete set of lower ones and they appear in pretty good shape.

From 7–9 years all teeth show wear; with it being most obvious on the canines and incisors. The incisors show the most wear on the upper and lower outer most tooth and some incisors might be missing. The distal (canine) ridges are worn completely.

From 9+ years onwards, there is obvious wear on the teeth. Canines are often broken or missing, and one or more of the incisors may be worn down to the stumps or missing entirely.

I see nothing to indicate in this pic that the lion is older than 7 and everything to suggest he is a 6 or 7 year old.

My only statement was that this lion is definitely not a 12 year old or even close.

The chances of even encountering a lion in a hunting block older than 10 is "extremely" low. Even odds on encountering an 8-10 are not good.

A great Rungwa lion - not sure about 12 but certainly not a weaner, that's for sure.

Note the absence of tufts on the elbow which denotes "free range"

Mark needs to lose weight, the sedentary life is beginning to show.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

...............

Fujo on the other hand is obviously in need of seeing a few more fully mature/wild lions, if he thinks for a second that wild lions do not grow big tufts of hair on the backs of their elbows/front legs. Hi Fujo!!

Seeing I know Sweet Fanny Adams about lion, could you please enlighten us all (me in particular) as to how old a lion has to be to before he develops 'fluffy' elbows, a garden path and a hairy crotch.

If I well remember I was pretty much complete by the age of twenty I too had a mane back then but as I got older it turned into a solar panel!

The 2 exemplary lions taken on your hunt in Lukwati a year ago were not fluffy elbowed; the lion taken by the charming young lady according to you, was not just a mature lion but an OLD, sparsely maned lion.
Yours had a mane that was almost second to none but that too showed no signs of fluff on the elbows, well the right one anyway.

Were you ever able to get an approximate age confirmation for those 2 skulls - out of pure interest of course? I used "approximate" because even the scientists and their high-tec x-ray paraphernalia cannot put an exact age on a lion. Only the SA Lion Breeders Association could give you those details down to the minute!

Damn it Man, whenever a TZ lion gets taken, the shit starts flying, whether it is MS or anyone else; yet neither of you have been able to give a true indication of the age of the lion in reference - most anyone with a few ounces of experience will be able to say it is 6+ though all of us have agreed it is DEFINITELY not 12.

I couldn't tell you either but I would be more inclined to call him out at 8/9 - Oh bollocks, I forgot I knew SFA about lions

Fujo - How old they have to be to produce the tufts on the back of their front legs - that I'm not sure? I would expect that varies, just like mane development. But to insinuate wild lions do not produce big tufts of hair on their elbows is simply FALSE! I know for a fact, cause I've personally shot several of em.

The Lion I personally shot in Lukwati last year - most certainly has big tufts of hair on the elbows of his front legs, you just don't see em in the pics.

Fujo, you will clearly see then my Lukwati Lion - and his big tuft of hair on his "right" elbow. He's the same on the other side too.

Did I insinuate wild lions don't grow tufts of elbow hair or are you putting words in my mouth?
A lion is a lion, canned or otherwise and if it is going to grow elbow tufts it will or maybe it won't.

Regrettably the pics you posted failed to show the tufts but as already indicated, the clip posted on your behalf is evidence enough.

You as I, do not know with any certainty at which age these tufts will grow but can assume any time after the age of 6 years.

By the way did you obtain the approximate age for both lions shot on that hunt for your records and did the first lion (client's) have elbow tufts as well?

Great to see such lively comment! It is good that there is such awareness and passion about killing properly aged lions. That is something that I believe we can all agree on.

I am not an expert at aging lions and I would not claim to be able to judge age solely by a single photograph. Many years ago Mark shared with me how he had learned to judge lions.

At that time, Mark told me that for years he had a contact at the Game and Fish of the State he was living in. Mark would give him a tooth from every lion he shot. Mark mentioned he used the button tooth just behind the upper canine. This is the smallest and most insignificant tooth a lion has.

Mark’s contact would section the tooth and by dipping it into a solution darken the age rings. Under a microscope he would count the age rings much like you do with a tree to determine the exact age.

From this aging process, over many years, Mark explained that he learned how to have an accurate understanding of a lion's age by looking at him closely. Mark told me teeth alone visually do not tell you his age. A lion wears his age on his face and body.

Mark shared with me that during that time the oldest lion he ever took was 15. Most of the lions he took in those days were 10 years of age and many were 12.

I believe Mark wrote about the importance of not killing young lions and general information about characteristics of older lions in his book Fear No Death. I don’t have time at the moment to spend digging through Mark’s books but I do recall reading about the topic.

Best always,
Shawn

quote:

At that time, Mark told me that for years he had a contact at the Game and Fish of the State he was living in. Mark would give him a tooth from every lion he shot. Mark mentioned he used the button tooth just behind the upper canine. This is the smallest and most insignificant tooth a lion has.

Mark’s contact would section the tooth and by dipping it into a solution darken the age rings. Under a microscope he would count the age rings much like you do with a tree to determine the exact age.

From this aging process, over many years, Mark explained that he learned how to have an accurate understanding of a lion's age by looking at him closely. Mark told me teeth alone visually do not tell you his age. A lion wears his age on his face and body.

Mark shared with me that during that time the oldest lion he ever took was 15. Most of the lions he took in those days were 10 years of age and many were 12.

Shawn,
As Bwanamich stated...that method has been invalidated for lion. It seems that cementum annuli are formed each time there is rapid growth of the tooth. For lion...who are feast and famine type eaters...they form many more cementum annuli (in the lions case the name is a misnomer and maybe should be referred to as just cementum rings) than one per year and counting them would almost assuredly overestimate the lions age in all cases. Some lion form many rings a year.

Interesting Lane! I would like to read more about that in regard to Tanzanian lion aging. If you could provide me a link to the research I would enjoy reading it when time allows.

I recall reading some time ago that cross sectioning was not necessarily as accurate but that longitudinal sectioning with dye for cementum lines was a better and more accurate method. My memory is probably not the best but I thought that the material I had read mentioned that cementum depositing does take place annually and while there are always variances, the upper and lower levels of confidence within the acceptable range for estimating age was appropriate and valid.

Always good to expand ones knowledge base whenever possible! I am looking forward to reading more.

Thanks,
Shawn

I posted this on my original thread Lane but I guess it belongs here too for continuity of topic:

As I have stated, I am not an expert at aging lions and do not play one on AR. My motivation for sharing Mark’s initial photo was really just to share a truly great lion. Unfortunately, I feel as though I am being diverted into a discussion on aging lion (not necessarily a bad thing) which is evolving into the efficacy of scientific aging methodology. I do apologize to those who simply wanted to see the photo and enjoy it.

Mark, the person with 24 years of field experience in judging lion, is unfortunately in Tanzania hunting and not able to spend time discussing the issue on AR. I wanted to post the other photos of this lion that I have.

Mark left me a voice-mail today. I was busy and not able to take his call. He did give me a message to pass on. I will do so since he is at the center of the discussion which has begun evolving indirectly into some questioning Mark’s ability to properly judge/age lion. I feel it is fair to allow him to comment:

Dear Shawn,

A lion wears his age on his face as your photos prove. All those guys who think this lion is six years old are simply showing their full and complete ignorance of the facts. They are rank amateurs. They know less than nothing.

As the saying goes...no one knows more than a guy who has completed his first safari or a PH who has finished his first season! I think that pretty well sums it up.

You have my permission to print the above.

Cheers big Bwana,
Mark

Well there you have it, a comment from Mark on the topic.

Best always,
Shawn

Shawn,
That lion is a wonderful trophy, definitely no question he is well into the harvestable age. I say congrats to all that had anything to do with the hunt.

But...he is not 12.

When the skull gets back to the states...if y'all want to bring it my hospital at DSC time when Paula is in town..I will personally get it aged by Dr. Paula White and Dr. Craig Packer my expense.

Lane I will advise Mark in case his client has interest. Kind of you to pick-up the cost as well! I would be happy to get you another (hunt up that is) if you would pick-up the cost for me :0) .

Thanks,
Shawn

Ann Cheater did the initial cementum annuli work in lion but never published the work because the cementum annuli hypothesis was since proven wrong with known aged wild lion. While looking for the specific references which were never published...I e-mailed Craig Packer to see if he would re-send them to me. Below is what he briefly stated in his e-mail.

On Aug 4, 2013, at 2:16 AM, packer@***.*** wrote:

The cementum layers don't seem to be reliable -- in some areas the lions might produce multiple layers each year; the numbers seem to vary from place to place. But Ann Cheater's method couldn't be properly validated since she didn't have teeth from wild-caught known-aged lions.
Cheers,
C

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Ann Cheater did the initial cementum annuli work in lion but never published the work because the cementum annuli hypothesis was since proven wrong with known aged wild lion. While looking for the specific references which were never published...I e-mailed Craig Packer to see if he would re-send them to me. Below is what he briefly stated in his e-mail.

On Aug 4, 2013, at 2:16 AM, packer@***.*** wrote:

The cementum layers don't seem to be reliable -- in some areas the lions might produce multiple layers each year; the numbers seem to vary from place to place. But Ann Cheater's method couldn't be properly validated since she didn't have teeth from wild-caught known-aged lions.
Cheers,
C

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients using the Spearman's Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

She was then able to set upper and lower confidence levels. I do understand that science changes and greatly appreciate your helping to educate me. That is a daunting task my friend. Thank you for speaking with Craig as well. Please send him my regards.

Best always,
Shawn

quote:

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients from the Spearman Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

Shawn,
Ann's work was written as a thesis and was never published in a scientific journal. When she did try...it is my understanding it was rejected on scientific principle in that the way she tried to validate cementum annuli count did not meet scientific standard. In other words she tried to go in the back door. When it was rejected...they tried to validate it by sectioning known aged lions teeth and found out the hypothesis was invalid.

So, she did NOT show conclusively that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year. And when it was looked at properly...it was found inaccurate. As it turns out, most lion lay down multiple rings per year...probably due to feast and famine type situations.

If it were that simple, just counting cementum rings, the aging process in TZ would be a piece of cake. But it is not. And, I don't even believe cementum annuli count is a part of the aging criteria.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients from the Spearman Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

Shawn,
Ann's work was written as a thesis and was never published in a scientific journal. When she did try...it is my understanding it was rejected on scientific principle in that the way she tried to validate cementum annuli count did not meet scientific standard. In other words she tried to go in the back door. When it was rejected...they tried to validate it by sectioning known aged lions teeth and found out the hypothesis was invalid.

So, she did NOT show conclusively that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year. And when it was looked at properly...it was found inaccurate. As it turns out, most lion lay down multiple rings per year...probably due to feast and famine type situations.

If it were that simple, just counting cementum rings, the aging process in TZ would be a piece of cake. But it is not. And, I don't even believe cementum annuli count is a part of the aging criteria.

Lane,

I understand that her work was not published and also that in some cases cementum was found to form more than once annually. Thanks again!

Shawn

In regards to wild lion...the key word is not 'some' but 'most' form more cementum annuli per year and if some cases...several per year.