quote:

Ben,
Two issues here: One issue is how for hunters and PHs to know which lions are mature and are shooters. The conclusive evidence--tooth x-rays, skull measurement--are not available to a hunter in the field. LCTF plans to produce either a booklet for each area whose lions have definitive characteristics, or a video. Either should help hunters and PHs make good decisions.

Sounds great.

On the other hand, it is easy to tell which lions not to shoot. The obviously young lions, those that anyone can tell are 3 yrs old or less, should never be shot.

Anyone can tell????? That's a bold statement. Making some pretty big assumptions there.
All the scientist agree on this. It is not hard to tell in the field and there should be zero controversy on the NON-Shooters. If in doubt, don't shoot.
No SOME scientists in one corner of Africa have stated this and it isn't near as easy as you think to judge lions in the field under hunting conditions.

Unfortunately, some people shoot obviously young lions and then post the photos on AR or other hunting sites. This is immediately taken up by the antis and used to discredit hunters with the scientists. THERE SHOULD BE NO CONTROVERSY ABOUT NOT SHOOTING YOUNG LIONS. There is no scientifically valid reason to shoot the young ones when you are trying to preserve sustainable populations of lions.

Says who. There is not one single study posted on here stating that killing young males or any male of choice under a strict quota system will damage lion populations. The only study posted in these threads stated that in %1 models on a computer did an extinction occur with a quota system and that model did not allow for annual scientific adjustment.

How can this even be an issue?

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Originally posted by smarterthanu:

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Depends on the quantity shot out of a given population on a regular basis!

And the Truth will set you free! Finaly someone said it. So if someone is regulating the harvest of the 2-3 year olds and it is not too many within a year it is also sustainable. So why are you saying no 2-3 year olds can be killed?

We have always maintained (At least I have) that the odd 2-3 year old killed is unfortunate but in the grand scheme of things not critical and will not have a big negative effect on sustainability of that population. But keep taking these 2-3 yo on a regular basis and you are removing the "replacement males" from the population. In so doing, over mid to long term, you will have a population decrease.

Not if it is limited in a quota system.

This is not my theory or my research but that of sicentists and biologists.

So unless you PROHIBIT through CONTROL MEASURES, the taking of a 2-3 yo lion, you will have a lot more of these young males shot to the point that there will be a negative impact on populations. They are by far the most commonly seen lions in any wild population.

I think in all yalls drama yall are confusing my idea of killing a limited number of 2-3 year olds with killing as many 2-3 year olds as you can. There is a difference. By the way how many 2-3 year olds does a breeding male kill before they can become breeding males? Where is that study?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

Ben,
Two issues here: One issue is how for hunters and PHs to know which lions are mature and are shooters. The conclusive evidence--tooth x-rays, skull measurement--are not available to a hunter in the field. LCTF plans to produce either a booklet for each area whose lions have definitive characteristics, or a video. Either should help hunters and PHs make good decisions.

Sounds great.



On the other hand, it is easy to tell which lions not to shoot. The obviously young lions, those that anyone can tell are 3 yrs old or less, should never be shot.

Anyone can tell????? That's a bold statement. Making some pretty big assumptions there.
All the scientist agree on this. It is not hard to tell in the field and there should be zero controversy on the NON-Shooters. If in doubt, don't shoot.
No SOME scientists in one corner of Africa have stated this and it isn't near as easy as you think to judge lions in the field under hunting conditions.

It is quite easy if you know that is what you have to do. Besides, if you are not 100% sure you can pass that opportunity and keep hunting for another one
Unfortunately, some people shoot obviously young lions and then post the photos on AR or other hunting sites. This is immediately taken up by the antis and used to discredit hunters with the scientists. THERE SHOULD BE NO CONTROVERSY ABOUT NOT SHOOTING YOUNG LIONS. There is no scientifically valid reason to shoot the young ones when you are trying to preserve sustainable populations of lions.

Says who. There is not one single study posted on here stating that killing young males or any male of choice under a strict quota system will damage lion populations. The only study posted in these threads stated that in %1 models on a computer did an extinction occur with a quota system and that model did not allow for annual scientific adjustment.

How can this even be an issue?

Because the science is not complete, and you can not take science from a small corner of africa and innact it as law across an entire continent. That is irresponsible managment and has been done too many times on your on soil with horrible effects. It is time to learn from our mistakes.

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So please tell us how you are going to determine how many 2-3 yo lions you will allow to be taken in any one hunting block? Let's use the Save of which you state you know all about that lion population.....

You don't set your quotas for the number of 2-3 year old lions you set the quotas for any lion. Those quotes should be conservative enough so that whether a 8 year old or a 3 year old is shot no damage is done to the overall health of the herd. These quotas won't be decided by one lone man in a foriegn country but actually set by aan authoritative local power under the guidance of local science provided by scientists, oufitters, and PHs. These numbers are reviewed anually and can be adjusted so if populations need to rise, or even fall, the quotas can be changed for the next hunting season.

And how will you control/monitor who get's to shoot the 2-3 yo males on quota and who doesn't when you have more than one operator/ph hunting the same populations in any given ecosystem at any one given time?

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It is quite easy if you know that is what you have to do. Besides, if you are not 100% sure you can pass that opportunity and keep hunting for another one

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Originally posted by gerryb:
Well we can fix it cheaper than I thought. WE just have to send smarterthanu up to The CITES meeting and he can convince all the scientist that all their ten years work is crap and yell at peta and tell them that pictures of young lions don't matter and tell fish and wildlife to not pay any attention to any of these people and he will fly over and tell all the countries to stop poison and how, and then tell them that it easy just set a quota and everyone can go home and the lion will be fine. Pretty easy. By the way I love Perter Pan too!!

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he can convince all the scientist that all their ten years work is crap

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They don't care what you tell them. they care what the people you discredit say and you can't change that. Not that some of those ideas may be right but they will uplist the lion based on the other, then you can say they should have listed to you but it will be to late.WE just want to stop that then go about trying all those things but not you, you would rather just talk about it and try the impossible than to save lion hunting now and solving problems after the petition is killed.

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I did not make any assumption. I tried to go over the steps we would have to go through and you crap on any comment you did not make and that is the truth.