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ACCURATERELOADING WISHES A HAPPY WINTER SOLSTICE AND YULE
TO ALL OUR PAGAN, WICCAN AND DRUID MEMBERS
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Conservation African Lions Hunting Management And Ecology A more balanced approachGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Ben, We have spoken about it on other threads in which you may not have participated in. But...watch for a new thread on this topic to show up in a few days when I get some time to devote to it that will do the topic justice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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That I am not sure i agree with, I can say with 100% certainty that if no pictures could be found of young lions we would be better off on the petition fight | |||
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I may be wrong on this, but I believe what the idea that is being put forth, is that safatri clients, are not out there on their own, trying to figure out what lion to shoot. They are with a PH. It is or should be the responsibility of the PH to have a working knowledge of what is and is not a Mature Lion. One of the potential problems that may or may not be an issue, will be getting the various countries where lion hunting is allowed, to change their laws and clarifying what is and is not a "Legal" animal. JMO on my part. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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you are on right | |||
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So it is a PR game and thats it. We are playing an emotional hand dealt to us by antis. Finaly you have spoken the truth. This means next they will hate zebra pictures, or lioness pictures etc..... You are pandering to their emotions. | |||
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no i did not say that i said that is used for them to make their point which very well may be wrong. It is easily fixed on our side.Rather I like or you like it if the CITES people pay attention to that and we can help ouselves I can see no harm in not pouring gas on a fire.we are no way pandering to THEM we are trying to just help kill the petition. | |||
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Then kill the petition with logic and quit telling hunters what they can and can not do. | |||
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Ben, Two issues here: One issue is how for hunters and PHs to know which lions are mature and are shooters. The conclusive evidence--tooth x-rays, skull measurement--are not available to a hunter in the field. LCTF plans to produce either a booklet for each area whose lions have definitive characteristics, or a video. Either should help hunters and PHs make good decisions. On the other hand, it is easy to tell which lions not to shoot. The obviously young lions, those that anyone can tell are 3 yrs old or less, should never be shot. All the scientist agree on this. It is not hard to tell in the field and there should be zero controversy on the NON-Shooters. If in doubt, don't shoot. Unfortunately, some people shoot obviously young lions and then post the photos on AR or other hunting sites. This is immediately taken up by the antis and used to discredit hunters with the scientists. THERE SHOULD BE NO CONTROVERSY ABOUT NOT SHOOTING YOUNG LIONS. There is no scientifically valid reason to shoot the young ones when you are trying to preserve sustainable populations of lions. How can this even be an issue? | |||
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Pictures are bad no doubt. But the 2-4 year old males should not be shot for good conservation reasons as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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we will never get anything done with those people because they are incapable of using logic and logic and polotics just don't go togeter. We are not telling hunter what they can or cannot shoot. What ever gave you that idea, we are simply saying what will happen IF WE CONTINUE TO SHOOT YOUNG LIONS. You can say anything you want but its not going to change that. The antis know this is a hot spot for scientist and if thats what they need on their side they will try and get it. Now I know you have some idea how to change all their thoughts and we are all ears for something that can actually take place but I will say that if we keep doing it the lion will be uplisted logical or not and that can be stopped by us.Any strange interpretation of what I said will not change that fact. The scientist that the decision makers listen to, say flat out stop or we will be against you period. | |||
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By the way Tanznia has already told hunters what they can and can't shoot.Others will soon follow. | |||
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One does not need thousands of $$ and >5 years to conduct individual scientific research on regional lion populations throughout Africa in order to be able to determine if a lion is <4 or >8 years old! Maybe, during this "interim period" only lion that are >8 years old should be hunted. They are quite easily determined wherever you are in Africa, irrespective of regional genetics, ecosystems, etc. And the scientists say that even if they are pride holders with dependant cubs and young, at that age, their removal may lead to infanticide but not a population drop as they will have had the chance to produce probably 2 or more generations by that time! So I guess, shoot only OBVIOUSLY OLD male lions (these will be >8 yo) and you are hunting SUSTAINABLY! I don't know how this can be achieved without some form of CONTROL and PENALTY to those that don't. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Depends on the quantity shot out of a given population on a regular basis! We have always maintained (At least I have) that the odd 2-3 year old killed is unfortunate but in the grand scheme of things not critical and will not have a big negative effect on sustainability of that population. But keep taking these 2-3 yo on a regular basis and you are removing the "replacement males" from the population. In so doing, over mid to long term, you will have a population decrease. This is not my theory or my research but that of sicentists and biologists. So unless you PROHIBIT through CONTROL MEASURES, the taking of a 2-3 yo lion, you will have a lot more of these young males shot to the point that there will be a negative impact on populations. They are by far the most commonly seen lions in any wild population. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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I can't remember which of the numerous threads the example of the Save conservancy came up so I am writing this here.... Brad, 1- How big is the Save conservancy in sq kms? 2- What is the lion density per sq km there? 3- What is the total annual lion quota for hunting in that ecosystem? 4- What is the total buff quota for hunting in the same ecosystem? Thx "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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I think in all yalls drama yall are confusing my idea of killing a limited number of 2-3 year olds with killing as many 2-3 year olds as you can. There is a difference. By the way how many 2-3 year olds does a breeding male kill before they can become breeding males? Where is that study? | |||
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