a constructive publication
Above is a great link to Conservation Forces April 2011 Newsletter which discusses the Petition submitted by the "anti's" to Ken Salizar / Dept of the Interior requesting a change in the ESA status of the African Lion. Please understand, I am not trying to belittle the threat this Petition poses. Rather I am encouraging an alternative to the previous hysteria and destructive behaviour. After reading this, it would appear to me that the next step is to find out if the Petition survived the 90 day "review period". If it has, I would encourage those who care to contact John J. Jackson and Conservation Force and donate what he sees as most helpful (money or time) in the 60 day period given to oppose this petition. Please see below for Conservation Forces website. I would also encourage you to visit the site as there are many informative and helpful links on this subject.
Conservation Force

505 - No question, JJ is the biggest proponent of the lion and all that is wildlife conservation. His commitment is beyond reproach, and CF should be supported to the fullest extent. The LCTF, has suggested his support as much as anyone.

But, as you would know, if you had spent hours of your time speaking with JJ, answering and communicating with him via dozens of emails, and attended the personal meetings the LCTF has had with him in the past 2 months. You would know his focus, as it should be is on the application of the law, as it pertains to the ESA listing, or the CITES up-listing! He's an attorney, that's his specialty, and no one knows it better than him!

The focus of the LCTF is changing protocal within our own fraternity! We are NOT legal experts, so we leave the legal stuff to JJ and the CF. We are fighting for the same cause, but taking two different approaches, as to who is the target audience, to some degree. JJ has his hands full dealing with all the legality issues of the ESA listing, etc, etc, etc.

He's fully aware of our approach, and is supporting us too, 100%! I get emails from him on a daily basis. As an attorney, its his motive, to only approach an issue from the stance of the law. He rarely, if ever, gives a nod to the opposition, even when recognizing a problem. Does that make sense, are you following me?

He must take a different approach than us, and WE HAVE ALL discussed that in PERSON. So once again, if you really knew all the info/facts, you might better understand exactly what's going on, and WHY!!! I don't mean to be condescending, but there's much that has been done/said, that you simply have NOT been a party to.

The potential listing, will uphold the 90-day review. The fight will begin after that! Our biggest asset/liability will be what side the likes of Dr. Craig Packer, Dr. Luke Hunter, Dr. Colleen Begg, and others, take. Period, end of story, and I can't stress that enough!! So, if they see and recognize the hunting fraternity's willingness and ability to assert change as it pertains to shooting young lions, dependent pride holding males, etc, etc. They will without a doubt, side with the hunters, they have all but said so. However, is they see status quo, the continued shooting of young lions, etc. They will side in favor of the uplisting. And unfortunately the USFWS, CITES and Ken Salazar are gonna listen to the "EXPERTS", regardless of what you think, say, lobby against, or do!

The needed change, has been proven with the best available science to be sound. So, who do you think they're gonna listen to. I don't like it anymore than you do, but unfortunately "POLITICS", plays a part in African Wildlife Conservation, just like it does in most other aspects of life.

Its important to recognize the difference between what we are doing and what JJ/CF is doing. JJ knows, and so do we, and we ALL support eachother!

Brad,

Thank you for posting. When people ask the LCTF about donating money...we ALWAYS say give to Conservation Force first. He has been fighting this war for 30 years. He is one of the worlds leading experts in wildlife law. He is an avid hunter. And...he is just a very nice fellow.

The petition has survived the 90 day period...BTW.

quote:

The petition has survived the 90 day period...BTW.

Why don't we work on getting people in touch with Conservation Force so they can help (with either money or time) them put together an organized rebuttal to this petition. Below is a link for Conservation Forces "online donation" page, I would encourage those that are more than "bitchers" to put their money where their mouth is.
less talking, more action

quote:

Why don't we work on getting people in touch with Conservation Force so they can help (with either money or time) them put together an organized rebuttal to this petition.

Siiiiggghhhh....Brad,

We formed the LCTF just for that purpose.

To put together a meaningful rebuttal...we need at least a small coalition of the what USF&W deems "the worlds leading lion experts"...the likes of Craig Packer, Luke Hunter, Philippe Chardonette, Coleen Begg, & Paula White. Maybe not all but at least some of them.

They are actually for continuing sport hunting...with the caveat of hunters doing a better job of conservation...namely not shooting young males...esp not 2 & 3 year olds.

When they see results...they will sign on.

We (LCTF) have engaged all of the above scinetists plus some in discussions. We are trying to present their work and criticisms for all to see. They make some valid points...shooting a 2 & 3 year old male never helps populations. But...if you look at Hunt Reports...you see them there.

Now you have come full-circle to where we (LCTF) are today. Which is trying to put together a meaningful rebuttal.

Our advisors, including John Jackson, agree that we need the scientific support from the list above.

quote:

esp not 2 & 3 year olds.

Is a 2 or 3 year old lion having sex and protecting a pride? If he is not what is the difference if you kill one 2 or 3 year old or killing one six year old?

because that is what the scientist and the consevation force say is carrying weight in the discissions on listing the lion. I don't know for a fact there is any difference but that doesn't matter if they DO!

quote:

Siiiiggghhhh....Brad,

We formed the LCTF just for that purpose.

To put together a meaningful rebuttal...we need at least a small coalition of the what USF&W deems "the worlds leading lion experts"...the likes of Craig Packer, Luke Hunter, Philippe Chardonette, Coleen Begg, & Paula White. Maybe not all but at least some of them.

They are actually for continuing sport hunting...with the caveat of hunters doing a better job of conservation...namely not shooting young males...esp not 2 & 3 year olds.

When they see results...they will sign on.

We (LCTF) have engaged all of the above scinetists plus some in discussions. We are trying to present their work and criticisms for all to see. They make some valid points...shooting a 2 & 3 year old male never helps populations. But...if you look at Hunt Reports...you see them there.

Now you have come full-circle to where we (LCTF) are today. Which is trying to put together a meaningful rebuttal.

Our advisors, including John Jackson, agree that we need the scientific support from the list above.

fine Lane, you are everyone's hero, you saved the lion, now back to the original thread....

quote:

Is a 2 or 3 year old lion having sex and protecting a pride? If he is not what is the difference if you kill one 2 or 3 year old or killing one six year old?

Ben,

You have stated that you have a wildlife biology degree. You have also stated that you understand pride dynamics and lion ecology well. You have even brought up some good points in the discussion on lions.

There are some good answers to your question above...some that every lion biologist I know of speaks about.

They have been stated in other threads time-and-again.

But...if you want us to go over them again on Brads thread...we can.

quote:

fine Lane, you are everyone's hero, you saved the lion, now back to the original thread

The lion does need our help. The lion needs us as hunters to not loose sight of the the forest by obstructing our vision with tree branches.

The lion needs us (hunters) to take an active roll in preventing the anti-hunting coalition from setting their fate.

The first thing that this means is that hunters and scientists must unite on common ground.

As go the scientists...so go goes the USF&W...so goes the Secretary of Interior.

After all...the Secretary of Interior can rule on this however he chooses...regardless of the rebuttal. He is appointed and do not forget who appointed him.

quote:

They have been stated in other threads time-and-again.

That question hasn't been answered one single time. Just as the question of average age of mortality has not been answered on single time. Are we trying to stop more than infanticide? Is this just playing a PR game? I asked this on other threads and never got an answer. Bwanna posted a link to a study which never addressed this. Until you answer this, amongst hunters you have a credibility issue with your cause.

what type of credibility does someone need to try and save lion hunting and try and raise funds to study lions and help lion conservation issues.

quote:

what type of credibility does someone need to try and save lion hunting and try and raise funds to study lions and help lion conservation issues.

They need to show that they are not a person just blowing resources on half truths and claims. Many wildlife departments in our own nation have implemented wildlife plans without having done their homework with devistating effects.

I understand your post now. I think there ie plenty of evidence for us to use in our defense however i agree i would love to have more and better but the only way we can get it it to try and raise funds and awareness. I think that what we are trying to do. I honestlyy do not think we or mr. jackson wants to blow our resources on crap but we have to have some of these things redone to be more up to date. i would like to think you honestly think we are trying to do good not bad. We are trying.

quote:

I understand your post now. I think there ie plenty of evidence for us to use in our defense however i agree i would love to have more and better but the only way we can get it it to try and raise funds and awareness. I think that what we are trying to do. I honestlyy do not think we or mr. jackson wants to blow our resources on crap but we have to have some of these things redone to be more up to date. i would like to think you honestly think we are trying to do good not bad. We are trying.

Sounds like a good idea as long as we recognize we are at a point right now where we can not accurately tell uotfitters and hunters what they can and can not shoot yet.