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One of Us |
This is an ethical quandary issue. I list a rifle on Gunbroker, and allow the starting price be one penny, and the buy-now price what I hope to actually get for the rifle. Of course, as I found out, this is a fine way to discover that there are lurkers out there. So, right away the opening bid is one cent, so I can't edit my listing. Then, after a day or so, even though there are several watchers, there are no other bidders. So, my nerves fail me, and I close the auction, and relist with a starting price at something I can live with. Lo and behold, the closing of the auction causes the listing to go to a sale for a penny, and the infernal "winner" is notified. As it appears, the "winner" has been down this path before, and makes a rukus about how he bought the rifle for a penny, and threatens having his attorneys on me. So, first of all, this SOB ain't getting the rifle for a penny, and of course the negative feed back was posted right away. BTW, my feedback had been near 90 positive before this FU. His email has all been threatning, and negative, with no apparant opportunity for positive outcome. So, what do you guys think about this? Should I worry about it? There seems to be little I can do, since regardless of my error, I reject the guy's bid to buy at a penny. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | ||
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Yes, I listed a shipping rate. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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PM sent. Check your messages. . | |||
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You did eff up, but anyone who argues a boneheaded mistake like that should cost you several hundred dollars isn't worth worrying about. | |||
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Bonehead mistake is right.  That's partially why I posted this, because at least others can learn from my mistake. Never post on GB starting at a penny. There are lurkers out there who search the new listings, and bid ASAP. I'm sure they play the percentages, and occasionally intimidate or otherwise get something for nothing. It's a game to them, and they act all huffy, like they have been wronged.My only advice, as with so many other things of controversy, try to be cool, and don't say or write anything that you wouldn't want as an exhibit in court. They will bait you - count on it - into saying something ultra stupid. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yeah, those tactics sometimes work. Matter of fact we watched a couple of world class ass-hats run SDH out of this forum using them. | |||
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What kind of attorney will take the case when the stakes are a three hundred dollar rifle..... Get on with life.....nothing is going to happen! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thanks vapo. As you probably know by now, I tend to worry somewhat, when I f**k up. and when an ethical question is involved. I try to stay straight about either, and I get pissed at myself more than anything if I have a lapse in judgment and/or confronted with a dilema that means I'm gonna have to gravel with a jerk. It's not that I don't know how to do that, but it takes a lot of energy sometimes, that I would rather put elsewhere, on more positive things and issues. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yep either start at a price you can live with or make sure you have a reserve. I doubt any attorney would deal with it. If you can't sell on gunbroker there are other options. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I don't know anything about that, and I'm not sure we are on the same page. Sometimes "those tactics" are all ya got, and believe me, on issues where you may be headed to court, your words and actions can and will be used against you, if possible, and at least second-guessed, although at the time said and done, you may think you are doing and saying the right thing. It can boggel the mind. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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It was an honest mistake and no one could reasonably expect to buy a rifle for .01. It is obvious to any rational person that .01 couldn't be an a expected price. I think you are correct that the person raising a ruckus has played this game before and is hoping to guilt you into selling him the gun for a silly price. | |||
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You entered into a contract, then violated that contract. Unless you spelled our your right to cancel, the law is not on your side. If he sued and won, you would also end up oweing court costs and attorneys fees. | |||
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It is entirely untrue that the law would not be on the poster's side. Contract law is filled with contracts being ruled invalid because of a unilateral mistake that is obvious to a rational observer. In addition to the law being on the poster's side, the ethics of the situation are on his side. The supposed buyer is attempting to take advantage of an obvious mistake where the poster clearly would never willingly agree to a .01 price. Morally and legally, the poster has done nothing wrong. | |||
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Hell, you are in Alaska.. if the Dink wants the rifle, tell him to come and get it... and by the way.. storage fees while you wait for him are $10 a day... tell him to take his time.. | |||
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I think so too. You offered the rifle, with no reserve, for 1 cent. The buyer accepted that invitation to bid and bid just that 1 cent. Unless you reserved the right to end the auction early or set a reserve then it is tough love I am afraid. The buyer can sue for specific performance. As to "making a mistake" I am sure that you did. But can you prove it? That's the problem. As unfortunately the law will probably side against that and the buyer's lawyer will respond, to your mistake claim, "That's what they all say...." The bottom line is, from the other guy's point of view, he doesn't know your motives for selling the rifle and so he doesn't know if you WERE happy to see it go for 1 cent. I've had many guns in my time, as part of a "job lot" that I've had to buy to get one special gun out of that "job lot" and that I've been happy to sell for effectively nothing to dispose of quickly to make storage space. And, as a bottom line, if the lowest bid had been, say $50, would you also have ended early? Quite simply and I have every sympathy with you maybe you need to see the bidder's point of view? | |||
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1. So what's this crap about "lurkers?" Is there something wrong with someone shopping for a good deal? Good deals are why people go to auctions. A more appropriate term might be customer. 2. If you read the auction rules on gunbroker, which are similar to eBay and other sites, you would know that once there is a bid, you can't edit or cancel the auction. 3. As far as the usual practice thing goes, very frequently things are purposefully started on gunbroker at very low prices and no reserve. If it's an item where many will have an interest in buying, then frequently the interest becomes so high with so many bidders that the item sells for higher than if it had been offered at a starting price near what it was worth. The risk is that if the auction ending time is wrong or interest wasn't as predicted the item might sell for much less than it was worth. 4. I think you have little to fear from gunbroker. Even when a transaction is unsatisfactory, they don't do much about it unless there is an extended pattern of unsatisfactory transactions. 5. As far as legal consequences go, when one buys from an auction site, much ado is made over the fact that the transaction is a "contract" and that the buyer must pay if he/she wins the bid. Shouldn't the same standard apply to sellers? Where would the guy sue you? Maybe in Federal Court near where he lives? By the way, I'm a gunbroker "lurker." I once one a Blaser shotgun barrel for something like 3 cents and the seller didn't honor the sale. I didn't threaten to sue him though I probably could have but he did get negative feedback as will all who don't honor valid auction transactions made with me. | |||
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Forget about it and move on. Don't let some jackass try to get the best of you. The world will never be constipated, because it is plenty full of a-holes like that. You relisted the gun right after you pulled the auction, so it was obvious there was an error. Just change the description slightly, and then you can tell him there was an error in the listing, and it was not correctly described. On Ebay, if you end an auction, they give you the choice of selling it to the high bidder, or just cancelling all bids. I had a run in with a guy on Gunbroker as well. I listed a gun as fired and "as new". He bought the gun, then once he received it, threw a fit about it not having the original box, when my ad said nothing about the box. I offered to send him a full refund, if he returned it within three days. He never returned the gun, but then proceeded to tell me that he thought for sure I had "buffed out rust" on the gun and reblued certain areas. His FFL holder was equally as corrupt, because I never got a copy of the FFL, only a shipping address, and was told it was a felony to request a paper copy of the FFL. | |||
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Errors can happen in pricing things at retail, in advertisements, and in listings of various sorts in print, online, on the radio, and on television. An error of a slight amount relative to the value of the item sold can turn out bad for the seller. But an error way out of proportion compared to the value of the item being sold, is an obvious error and it would be a very unusual thing for any court in the USA to force the seller to honor the price. Unless there were special circumstances, listing a $700 gun for $0.01 with no reserve price is obviously an error. Surely the buyer had to know it was an error, especially when the auction was ended early. I wouldn't worry about threats, bullying, or childish whining from the man who thought he won the lottery and could have your rifle for one cent. . | |||
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That's why I started this discussion. Until I did that listing starting at a penny, I had no idea that there is a cluster-phuck of guys out there, just lurking on these auction sites. I should have known, because now it's obvious. There are many forms of scam, so why would this not be exploited? Others can learn from this. So, you're a penny lurker, and proud of it. Do you also hang out at nursing homes to get your name in the wills of rich old ladys? Share some of your other something-for-nothing ideas with us. Be generous. There are good deals, and there's taking advantage, and not much of a line between that and a scam. I think the situation I'm in crosses the line into a scam, because the guy tried to intimidate me into selling for a penny, and by that time had already given negative feedback. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I know that I have listed itmes on Ebay at a low starting price to reduce the fees. However in those cases I make sure to have a reserve. In reading their site I feel that his only real option is what he did. File negative feedback. My view is if someone lists an item on gunbroker at $.01 with no reserve then they are taking a risk that the bids might not increase. Why shouldn't someone bid the starting price? That is what the seller listed it for. Let's see if I go to an estate sale and someone has a $1000 rifle listed for $10 should I tell them of their error? If you list something for sale you should know the value and what you are willing to accept. The buyer does not owe it to you to pay you more. I believe you got off with negative feedback. Learn and move forward. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I buy and sell a lot on GunBroker and eBay. In my opinion, you are the one with the ethics trouble here. You got nervous and violated policy, and in the process got stung. There is absolutely nothing unethical about a guy bidding a penny to remove the Buy it Now. He did not want to pay your price and was willing to see what the market price would be. You really owe him that gun at one penny. You are at fault and not him. You should have put a Reserve. The policies are in place for a reason. You may have ended the auction early because you had an off auction offer; you may have ended it because you did not get the price you hoped for. To the best of my knowledge there is no ending early once you have bids unless you had a Reserve. Most who choose to have the option of ending early have the gun available locally in their shop. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Seller's fault for not knowing what he was doing. The moment an auction is posted it is ready to accept bids. It is completly within the buyers rights to immediately post a bid. It's not the buyers fault the seller did not know what he was doing. | |||
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As I understand and just reread in the case of Gunbroker the Buy Now doesn't get removed until the reserve is crossed. If no reserve the buynow will remain in place no matter how many bids. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Retailers always reserve the right to correct obvious mistakes in pricing. The only way they honor them is to fend off bad publicity. They are not bound in any way to do so. There is something called "reason" here. It a penny a "reasonable" price for such an item? I think not. And I would agree on the "lurkers" label. There is always a type of "customer" who is looking to take advantage any way they can weasle to get a "bargain". I have a business and don't tolerate it. I have no need for that type of "customer". You don't sell things to be a public service! They are the cheapest, bottom of the barrel type who have to come out "on top" in any transaction they engage in. They make me sick. A good deal is where the buyer and the seller are happy. | |||
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List your item with a starting bid that is the minimum you will take. No reserve. No gimmicks. Just put it out there and let the market take care of it. If it doesn't get a bid, you've lost nothing but the insignificant listing fee. If it gets a bid, then you've sold it at a price you can live with. If it gets more than one bid, then you've sold it for more money than that. Straight forward, no reserve, no gimmick auctions always receive bids that represent the best the market has to offer. Gimmicky and reserve auctions usually don't. I never bid on a "reserve" auction. Neither does any serious buyer I know. If I'm going to offer my top bid, then I want to know that if that bid is higher than anyone else's that the item is going to be mine. Period. | |||
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Agreed. Actually, I made two mistakes with this listing. The first was no reserve or reasonable starting price, and the second mistake was ending the auction. Of course there was the probability of legitimate bidders running it up to a reasonable amount, which would have excluded the penny lurkers. There were several watchers at the time of closure. I figured I was in the realm of my rights to choose to end early, and really didn't give a second thought that the damn thing would close as sold for a penny. Of course with both mistakes, there was no un-doing either. I couldn't edit because of the penny bid, and I could retract the early closure. The bottom line to me is that the penny lurker is not a buyer in good faith. If he had been, all he needed to do was bid on the new listing. But it was not his intent to be a buyer in good faith. His intent was something for nothing. He had a choice to leave bad feedback, or not. He could have forgiven my mistake, moved on, and bid on the new listing, if he really had intent on paying a reasonable price. The essence of a good deal is when both sides are reasonably happy with the sale. That's also the general basis of contract, win-win, and mutual good faith. The intent was clearly to rip me off. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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That describes the way I've done it in the past, and the way I'll do it in the future. It has been working, and I was a bonehead for changing a formula that works. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Give me a break. There is talk about the auction winner whining but I hear someone else whining. Now it's "penny lurker." I guess that means if someone doesn't value something like you do their a "lurker." There isn't anything unethical about starting bidding at the starting price YOU put in. | |||
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Give me a break. There is talk about the auction winner whining but I hear someone else whining. Now it's "penny lurker." I guess that means if someone doesn't value something like you do they're a "lurker." There isn't anything unethical about starting bidding at the starting price YOU put in. That's the way all auctions are; there is a starting price and sometimes a reserve and sometimes things go for much less than they're worth. That's the reason all those "lurkers" go to auctions of all sorts. | |||
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I don't mean to sound harsh, but,from what you've written, I say you owe the high bidder the rifle. YOU are the one who listed it starting at 1 penney; YOU are the one whose nerves failed and closed the auction. Having a high standard of ethics can be difficult to live up to. If it was easy, everybody would have them. | |||
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Thanks for your opinion, K22, but ethics or not, I ain't selling my rifle to no SOB for a penny. That's my bottom line, regardless of all else. Do you think that guy cares anything about ethics? Would he thank me? Behavior rewarded is behavior continued. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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(quote)I ain't selling my rifle to no SOB for a penny. That's my bottom line, regardless of all else.(quote) Regardless of ethics??? | |||
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You guys  !!! Give the poor feller a break! The guy that bid the penny was NOT hurt. KB made a mistake, he won't do it again, he got his little spanking (neg. feedback), we should all move on. The damn listing pages are confusing for us folks that went to college before the computer age. As far as the threat go...tell him to do whatever he thinks he is big enough to get done. He is probably too tight to hire an attorney.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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 Be reasonable!!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I would rather be accused of being deficient in ethics, that let a chit head beat me out of $500. The latter would haunt me more than having a lapse in ethics. After all, perhaps ethics isn't black and white, and I'm not too sure about those who think it is - universally. The one thing in this that is black and white (clear) is in whose pocket the $500 is. It's my property in the first place, which I paid for, and if I transfer it to him for nothing, just to retain something as intangible and subjective as ethics - that's a lose/lose to me. If there was a mutual exchange of something of roughly equal value, then ethics is not part of the picture. This is not too far fetched of an ethical dilema, in which either way isn't good. I could probably think up many examples, all the way up to a national level. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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ledvm, I'm not trying to be unreasonable, but KB asked about ethics. Does one only have ethics when it's free or convenient? | |||
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Those are good questions, and in part why I started this discussion. I've given my answer. Look at it this way: Suppose you entered a contract and discovered a significant flaw that in particular affected the even exchange of value and also good faith. Would you honor your commitment, even though you discovered the other party intended to rip you off from the beginning? Or, having no other remedy, would you take action to void the contract, under the cause of breech of contract for violation of good faith, if nothing more? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Didn't you have a wife or friend that would offer to buy it and sell back to you at same price if the bid didn't get to a reasonable amount. Many classic auto auctions have lots of cars that go up for auction and the owner bids on his own car, sometimes just to set a new record sale price for that special auto he owns. Bob Nisbet DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover Temporarily Displaced Texan If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat. | |||
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But Bob, is not that unethical?   The good folks on GB wouldn't do that? As a matter of fact, Bob, I have this small problem with a listing on GB right now. Would you consider bumping up the bid for me? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Ethical Quandary re auction listing
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