quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
Please post your user name so I can do the same. I am sure others will also want to block you.

And why would they want to block me? Is my money not green?

Now that I think about it, I believe we have done business before on GB. I don't recall any complaints. I'm going to do a back search, and see if my memory is correct.

Nope, I was wrong. Must have been a similar name.

Say, I see that you don't have any penny auctions. I think it would be a great idea (since they don't belong to me - yet) to list those fine Chapuis firearms on penny auctions. Put your ethics to the test. No guts, no glory.

KB

Because you do not read the terms of service and then cry when you screw up.
I started off being sympathetic for you but the more you posted the more I realized that you are probably a pain in the rear as both a seller and as a customer.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
I realized that you are probably a pain in the rear as both a seller and as a customer.

My default mode is to be nice, although I can be a pain in self-defense, and sometimes in retribution.

KB

The penny auction, the one that I didn't close early, closes today. Right now there are 43 watchers, the highest of any auction I've listed. I'm curious to see what activity happens in the final 30 minutes. the price is already in the range where I'm not hurt much, price-wise, but still less than I have in it. We'll see how it turns out.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Could be that we have a different definition of scam. I use the word in a broad sense, to include something-for-nothing schemes.

Here are a few of the definitions I could quickly find:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scam

http://www.eecl.org/scam/definition.shtml

In this case, the definition of scam is a good focus point of discussion.
For example - to me:
listing a penny auction is not a scam.
Bidding on a penny auction is not a scam.
Closing a penny auction early is not a scam.
Having your maximum bid of $100, show up as $.01, is not a scam.

Doing a search of GB, looking for penny auctions, no reserve, and bidding the minimum, on as many as can be found, that some other scammer hasn't beat you to, is within my definition of a scam. I say this because it meets the criteria of looking for something-for-nothing. It makes no different the outcome, whether mistake or just simply the item has no interested bidders, thus ain't worth much. The scammer plays the odds that he'll have a big win. It's not about the concept of "auction", finding the market, at all. It's about the big hit.

It's all about intent, and good faith. Listing a penny auction is not an invitation to scam, it's an invitation to bid, and let the market decide the value. And penny auctions will work, as intended by the seller, most of the time, and when they do work, both parties are winners, and happy with the outcome.

KB

Your definition of a scam is wrong. That is not a scam. Besides you have no way of knowing that he is actually bidding on as many penny acutions as he can. And even if he did, that is not a scam because he is not attempting to desceive anyone and there is nothing dishonest in doing so. You just have to call him a scammer to try to justify your own dishonest behavior.

You are the scammer. I think you said you had two auctions for similar items, right? So you run one for a penny to generate some interest and when it gets some intereest you shut it down and say, Hey look I have another similar auction over here. Yeah, I know the price is alot higher but why don't you just bid on it instead? I sounds like a form of the old bait and switch scam to me. Has it worked for you in the past? I bet you don't even have two items to sell and it was your intention from the beginning to use the penny auction for an imaginary item to get some extra attention for the real auction.

People want to know your GB username because you have proven yourself to be a scammer and they want to avoid getting sucking into another one of your scams.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
Please post your user name so I can do the same. I am sure others will also want to block you.

And why would they want to block me? Is my money not green?

Now that I think about it, I believe we have done business before on GB. I don't recall any complaints. I'm going to do a back search, and see if my memory is correct.

Nope, I was wrong. Must have been a similar name.

Say, I see that you don't have any penny auctions. I think it would be a great idea (since they don't belong to me - yet) to list those fine Chapuis firearms on penny auctions. Put your ethics to the test. No guts, no glory.

KB

How would him intentionally doing some stupid be a test of his ethics? Only a moron would list a valuable item for penny. That's not ethics, it's stupidity.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
People want to know your GB username because you have proven yourself to be a scammer and they want to avoid getting sucking into another one of your scams.

I may be stupid, but I ain't that stupid. As Forest Gump said, "stupid is as stupid does".

Could be a stupid move to close the auction, or to have run it starting ar a penny in the first place. Could be a stupid move to post it here on AR, and suffer the stupidity and nastiness of others.

But, I consider it damn stupid to give you any more personal info, that you can use against me.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
How would him intentionally doing some stupid be a test of his ethics? Only a moron would list a valuable item for penny. That's not ethics, it's stupidity.

Apparantly there are a lot of stupid dealers, who list penny auctions routinely. Enough so that penny lurkers are alive and well and active.

KB

To paraphrase one of my favorite ex-drill sergeants, "why don't you chug on over to mamby-pamby land and grow a pair, you jack wagon?"
YOU listed the item, YOU set the price at a moronic .01 starting bid, YOU put it at no reserve, and then when a bidder, apparently the only bidder, bid the minimum price YOU set for this auction, you throw what my mom used to call a "hissy fit" and want sympathy for all the mistakes YOU made. See a pattern here? YOU made all the rules with YOUR toy and now that someone didn't play the way YOU wanted them to, YOU decided to take YOUR toy, start pouting, and go home. Grow up, be an adult, and quit your whining.
I agree with the poster who says a lot of people won't bid on an item where where there is no listed minimum price listed. It wastes people's time. If you want $600 out of it, put that as your starting bid...if you get more, great, if not, you still get what you wanted.

Geesh. I can't believe you keep digging your hole deeper.

At some point you'd think you'd be smart enough to shut up and let it go.

Well knowing you are in AK and the auction closes today it was not real hard to do a GB search & figure out your GB user name. You have now officially been added to my small list of blocked bidders.
How many auctions did you do this with? Looks like the same bidder gave you a F for two different auctions.

What hole?

What whining?

I sorta see both of your points of view.

He was the only bidder, at .01, and I closed it to keep it that way, and start over. Had it remained open, I'm sure there would have been other bidders, and this discussion wouldn't even be happening, and I wouldn't have discovered the penny lurker scam, and discovered that there are those here that condone it and participate.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
Well knowing you are in AK and the auction closes today it was not real hard to do a GB search & figure out your GB user name. You have now officially been added to my small list of blocked bidders.
How many auctions did you do this with? Looks like the same bidder gave you a F for two different auctions.

"How many auctions did you do this with?"

See what I mean. You already know the answer to that.

That's why I think he's doing blanket bids on penny auctions, in addition to info in his email. It's not just one auction. I closed two, and left one open, all started within an hour of each other. I started this discussion using one as an example. Same facts apply to the other examples as well, same day and all, different rifles.

Since you have the inside scoop, on my GB dealings, I would rather that you not post my user name, as a matter of ethical courtesy. And now that you know, you can confirm my long-standing good feedback record, until this happened, and that the basic facts as described are accurate.

And you can confirm that you put me on your blocked list based on the word of a scammer, and your predisposed mindset, dispite clear evidence of a history of good faith dealings.

KB

"Penny lurker scam"?!?! WHAT SCAM? A legitimate bidder, not lurker, bid what you set as the minimum opening bid....maybe the "penny lurker", as you refer to him, is really one of the MIB that arrived to bid in their black helicopter?
Not sure if you read my first post on this subject, but if you did and didn't get my point I will try to explain it again:
YOU set all the rules, now YOU refuse to play by your own rules, so the only one to blame is YOU. I can't make it any clearer than that, sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Since you have the inside scoop, on my GB dealings, I would rather that you not post my user name, as a matter of ethical courtesy. And now that you know, you can confirm my long-standing good feedback record, until this happened, and that the basic facts as described are accurate.

You want "Ethical courtesy?" You impress me as not being particularly courteous and two long threads are adequate testimony to the ethics part.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
You want "Ethical courtesy?"

You are the type that worries me, because I think you wouldn't honor courtesy, or recognize ethics if it was a snake that bit you.

And yes, I expect ethical courtesy 100% from members of this forum, otherwise I wouldn't have the balls to start something like this.

Depending on your behavior, looking ahead, let others take note, as to whether this is a safe haven or not, to share views, experiences and the sport we enjoy.

The outcome of this is up to you, the members. I've said my piece, and taken a stand.

KB

How is the outcome up to the members here? I havn't read the entire mess (4 pages).

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
How is the outcome up to the members here? I havn't read the entire mess (4 pages).

I'm not talking about the outcome of my GB dealings. Fortunately and hopefully no one here has anything to do with that.

I'm talking about this thread, the outcome of which is up to the members here because, at some point, soon, I'm gonna drop it, and move on. Knowing how some are, they who love to speculate, and mess with the facts, and make something that is merely a difference of opinion into a stinking mess, and make it personal, and go on the attack.

From this point on, if it goes much further, it's mostly going to take the shape the members give it without my input, or response. Thus, not necessarily a reflection of the truth, but a conglomeration of opinion that reflects the general character of the members of this forum, interaction with each other, what you tolerate, and yes - ethical courtesy.

I've influenced its direction and argued about as much as I can tolerate.

KB

O.K. I didn't read it all word for word but I did give all 4 pages a look over. From my un-biased point of view it would have died quite some time ago if you would just stop posting.

No response necessary please.

We shall see.

As a seller I have had people make mistakes with bids, ie wrong item, wrong $ amount etc and I expect them to email me that there is a problem and work with me to come up with a fair solution.

If I had been the high bidder I would have realized this was a error but I would also have expected a email saying that the seller had made a error and what could he do to make it up to me.

Did you immediately email the high bidder and say that you had Oh Sh*t moment and made a mistake and what you could do to make up for this error? Did you consider emailing the high bidder before closing the auction?

If I had not received a email from the seller but had received a winning buyer email from GB I would have probably asked you where to send my 2 shinny new pennies not really expecting you to sell them to me for what is a mistake but to try and open a dialog.

I suspect at that moment you made up your own "terms of use" and started name calling ie. scammer, low life, thief, penny lurker etc if not worse. If as the winning bidder I had received that reply I would probably have threatened some legal action also.

Most buyers and sellers are pretty reasonable, but if you make a error you need to go "hat in hand" and ask what you can do to make it all better. Did you?

quote:

I had been having high satisfaction out of my dealings on GB, both buying and selling, until I pulled this stunt

Stunt(def); Something done to attract attention or publicity.

quote:

I saw it as my exclusive and unilateral prerogative to end the auction early, regardless of what anyone else thinks, including GB.

Ok, sure sounds like your minds made up, so why start a thread to go fishing for opinions?
Im sure the bidder also felt that he was well within his [legal] perogative to bid and win your item,regardless of what anyone else thinks...
Somehow you believe your deliberate action to violate your GB contract was ethical, but his legal winning bid amount was unethical. The bidder might see it as the exact opposite. His opinion is no more or less valid than yours.

quote:

He didn't give negative feed back for ending the auction early, he gave it because I didn't sell him the rifle for a penny.

Strictly speaking,the successful bidder went by the rules, your the one who violated your GB contract.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
I suspect at that moment you made up your own "terms of use" and started name calling ie. scammer, low life, thief, penny lurker etc if not worse. If as the winning bidder I had received that reply I would probably have threatened some legal action also.

Speculation - love it don't ya.

I don't negotiate with dogs or scammers. Appearing humble only prolongs the inevitable - no sale.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
I suspect at that moment you made up your own "terms of use" and started name calling ie. scammer, low life, thief, penny lurker etc if not worse. If as the winning bidder I had received that reply I would probably have threatened some legal action also.

Speculation - love it don't ya.

I don't negotiate with dogs or scammers. Appearing humble only prolongs the inevitable - no sale.

KB

Your first mistake was ending the auction before it had run its course and causing yourself some grief. It was your choice, however most people attempt to fix a problem instead of running away from it, your choice...

Your second mistake was posting your "Ethical Question" in an attempt to provide you some sort of "backbone" to stand behind your mistake.

Your third mistake was to listen to those that supported your position or posted "legal BS". This is a $500 deal? It would be a waste of time and money to sue you over a deal this size but again this is an "Ethical Question" for you.

Your fourth mistake was continuing to go out of your way to disagree with others who have a different view than yours, after you initial asked a question and got answers you disagreed with...

Your fifth mistake was to start the use of "one liners", showing you truely have no good responces to the mess you created..

I am sure there are other mistakes you made along the way, we all make them...what matters is how you handle it...

Sixth mistake....You failed "Ethics"....

Do yourself a favor and let this go away...

People who enforce their own terms of use to knowingly violate a contract and people who expect to get a rifle for $.01 , are about as reasonable,ethical & silly as each other.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
- ethical courtesy.

Did you have any ethical courtesy to notify GB and bidder to explain about your $.01 no reserve price "goof up" and inform them of your intention to cancel the auction for that reason?

Tuff Bunch.
BTW, I have plenty of good responses. I'm just tired of arguing, and repeating myself, when there is no longer any point in it, that hasn't already been made.

One liners are still fun, but it seems to be getting a little risky, like poking a stick at a bunch of cobras, or slimy like trolling for attorney wannabees.

This is the best and most relavent post. My attorney said the same thing. Everything else is just BS.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I emailed this thread to a friend that is also an attorney and asked his opinion....here it is:

quote:

This would almost certainly be taken up in a small claims court. The judge would assess whether both parties entered into this agreement in good faith and with a bid of one penny, the answer would be most likely no. The likely finding would be "no sale".

KB

FlockShooter

Please don't stop now, it's getting hilarious!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Tuff Bunch.
BTW, I have plenty of good responses. I'm just tired of arguing, and repeating myself, when there is no longer any point in it, that hasn't already been made.

One liners are still fun, but it seems to be getting a little risky, like poking a stick at a bunch of cobras, or slimy like trolling for attorney wannabees.

This is the best and most relavent post. My attorney said the same thing. Everything else is just BS.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I emailed this thread to a friend that is also an attorney and asked his opinion....here it is:

quote:

This would almost certainly be taken up in a small claims court. The judge would assess whether both parties entered into this agreement in good faith and with a bid of one penny, the answer would be most likely no. The likely finding would be "no sale".

KB

Like I said, it would be a waste of time and money to file a lawsuit in a matter like this, even in small claims court...

Just one question, did your lawyer (and Vapo's) actually spend the time to read the the auction rules, guidelines, etc...and determine if a binding contract actually exist between you and the scammer? Possibly the lawyer(s) are just going off what you (or Vapo)told them?

Again, not sure what your worried about...seems like you have all your own answers...so why in the heck did you make the original post...

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

Just one question, did your lawyer (and Vapo's) actually spend the time to read the the auction rules, guidelines, etc...and determine if a binding contract actually exist between you and the scammer? Possibly the lawyer(s) are just going off what you (or Vapo)told them?

Again, not sure what your worried about...seems like you have all your own answers...so why in the heck did you make the original post...

Part of the reason I post is to answer questions directed to me. It would be kind to stop with that.

I don't know about Vapo's attorney. Of course my attorney (friend) went with what I told him, and it was informal. He is thoroughly familiar with GB rules.

The issue, which I said early in the beginning, is all about good faith, and fair dealing, whether there's harm or not. I'm tired of complicated answers, so the bottom line is that there is no rememdy to this that covers all bases. A binding contract does not exist, in his opinion. The best and fairest solution is quick closure, no-sale clearly stated, and minimal argument or debate with the bidder. That's what I did. The attorney did say that he thought it would be a mistake and an opening for grief, if I did anything to prolong closure, such as be nice and talk to the bidder, especially appologise.

I'm not really worried about the deal. I do have all the answers that count at this time. There were other potential ways it could have gone, but they don't matter now. I'm a little worried about the course of this on AR, because discussion here is a real wild card.

I made the initial post because it is a quandry, which ultimatly has no solution, other than as it is. Could-a, should-a is turf for the assumption, speculation and second-guessing lovers. And I found it interesting, and thought maybe others would too. I've never been in this exact situation before, and it's highly unlikely to happen again. I just don't regularly get into messes like this, so it is an unusual experience, but I messed up this time, and fixed it best I could. It's too late to retrace the steps.

I am sure that others have been in similar situations during their lifetime.

KB

This has to be fake failure to post GB name seems like he is seeking attention like the older troll post by Scotts and Axel I been watching this thread for awhile and this seems to be total bs

Second-chance schemes involve scammers who offer losing bidders of legitimate auctions the opportunity to buy the item(s) they wanted at reduced prices