WHY ARE WE SO WORRIED IN GETTING INTO “MAGNUM†LEVELS ?

Lets try to match the figures of two cartridges from the same manufacturer that use exactly the same bullet, Federal’s 180 grains Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, but one in 300 Winch Mag. and the other in 30-06, with the only difference that the first has a muzzle velocity of 2,960 f/s., and the second of 2,650 f/s..


300 WM 30 06 300 WM 30 06 300 WM 30 06
DIST VEL f/s VEL f/s DIF ENER f/p ENER f/p DIF DROP DROP DIF
0 2960 2650 310 3503 2808 695
50 2831 2530 301 3204 2558 646 1.2 1.8 -0.6
100 2706 2412 294 2927 2327 600 2.8 3.8 -1
150 2584 2298 286 2669 2112 557 3.2 4.2 -1
200 2465 2187 278 2430 1913 517 2.3 3 -0.7
250 2350 2079 271 2207 1728 479 0 0 0
300 2237 1974 263 2001 1559 442 -3.9 -5 1.1
350 2128 1873 255 1810 1402 408 -9.5 -12.3 2.8
400 2022 1775 247 1634 1259 375 -17.1 -22 4.9
450 1919 1681 238 1472 1129 343 -26.8 -34.5 7.7
500 1819 1591 228 1323 1011 312 -38.8 -50.1 11.3

A review from these figures from the manufacturer can conclude that energy differential between both cartridges is the equivalent of around 125 yards.

That is a trophy will get hit exactly by the same bullet in all aspects if it has being shot at 175 yards from the 30-06, than 300 yards from the 300 Winch. Mag.

I am sure that non of you will stop from shooting a trophy with the 300 Winch. Mag. at 500 yards, of course if you are good enough, so it will be the same to do so with the 30-06 at around 375 yards, with more confidence and having made a closer stalk to your quarry.

Lets look something else:

· Bullet drop difference within 300 yards is around one inch, and only at certain distances of the curve.

· Within the 300 yard range is where most of all hunting is done, and in any case most of the time a small stalk can be done easily at this distance to get even.

· Many new riflescopes have multiple plexes or dots that easily match bullet drop for any caliber, eliminating any disadvantage because of drop at any distance.

With these things in mind, the only limitation will be the size and shape of the trophy so the energy left and the type of bullet construction at certain distance, is enough for the 30-06.

At 500 yards the 30-06 has 1,011 f/p. of energy, more than enough for a deer size animal even without considering the toughness of the trophy bonded bullet, which will let you get larger animals.

So we can see how really these advantages of “magnumitis†now days are more theory than practical with today’s better bullets, scopes and rangefinders.

And we are not considering lower recoil and noise levels, longer barrel life, lighter rifles, smaller actions, more magazine capacity, cheaper and easier availability of ammo, lower chances of getting kiss by the scope, etc.,.

In a few words, technology has made us come back from the need of magnum levels to normal strength.

My conclusion is that my old trusty 30-06, well scoped and with premium ammo, has served me very well in my two safaris in Africa, and maybe it is also time for you to reconsider getting down from the “magnum trainâ€.

What’s your opinion?

caza

You are absolutely, 100% correct. This is an arguement that you can trace back to the time when someone discovered gunpowder.

But like most things in life, the answer is $$$, or, spelled another way, MONEY. Once everyone has a 30-06 rifle and a box or two of ammunition what will Remchester do to satisfy the BOD? Invent new ones of course. Get the gun magazines to write up an article or two. Pay one of the writers to take that new cartridge deer hunting in Wyoming where he shoots a big buck deader than a doornail and then start taking orders.

But I wouldn't have it any other way. More and different cartridges means more shooters which means more guys on our side.

JMHO

Ray

Thanksfor the point of view that it is only comercial in orther to gather more interest in our sport.

LMCH

cazador,

I didn't even have to read your whole post to get it. I've been wondering the same thing for years.

ego and $$$

quote:

Lets try to match the figures of two cartridges from the same manufacturer that use exactly the same bullet, Federal’s 180 grains Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, but one in 300 Winch Mag. and the other in 30-06, with the only difference that the first has a muzzle velocity of 2,960 f/s., and the second of 2,650 f/s..

With all due respect friend.....anyone that can't milk 2,800'/sec from that bullet in a 30-06 and a 22" barrel isn't much of a reloader.

The simple truth is that there's minimal difference between any of the 30-06 family and the corresponding same caliber magnum from the .300 Win Mag family. Possibly 200'/sec and that's simply not worth the magnum powder charge and extra weight of rifle and cost of ammo!

Eat what you like, marry who you love, and shoot what you want.

The 30'06 is a great cartridge, the 308 is too, but my favorite 30 calibers are the 50+ year old 300 WBY mag and the 100+ year old 30-30.

Youre right - but life sure would be boring if we all only had 30-06s!

same reason I opt for the SRT-8 package on my Chrysler 300C Hemi. Going from 340 to 425 horses
makes my hammer handle 2" longer and...you don't want to know the rest...

Rich
DRSS

rich...you a mopar fan?

nice car

I think Idaho Sharpshooter is right with the "hammer handle" comment.

Case in point. I heard two young guys in the gym a while back talking about rifles. One guy said he hunted with a .300 RUM. The other guy asked why he hunted with such a "cannon" and the guy said his buddy had a 7mm RUM and he got tired of his bragging about how great it was so he got something bigger!

I live in Georgia where big game means deer that seldom reach 200 pounds and shots are seldom longer than 150 yards!

you know, all this talk of "bullet energy' being a factor in bringing down an animal is so much bunkum, perpetrated by the media and "experts" paid to spout ft lbs etc. Ask any experienced hunter- one with hundreds of animals to his credit- if his favorite weapon had "1000 ft lbs" at xx yards and he will laugh at you. When a bullet penetrates the lung area, it causes a bilateral pneumothorax (both lungs collapse.) the animal dies of asphyxiation, no matter what the "energy". Only momentum sufficient to ensure adequate penetration is what is needed. Please, lets get real and give up this "ft lbs" nonsense, an artificial measurement with no relationsip to penetration.

I have oft said that the only logical step up from a 30-06 is the 338 winchester.

That being said, having played at 500 yds a few times, the advantage of the higher velocity magnums is their reduced time to target which helps to minimize windage corrections. And although 1000 ft lbs may be enough to kill a deer at 500 yds, it is barely so. The velocities are low enough at 500 yds that bullets may not expand fully, thereby reducing the transmission of energy to the animal.

Again, do I buy into, sometimes. Of course my long range gun is a 340 Weatherby. As a youngin, I loved the 300 mag, experience has taught me it is oft too destructive on the smaller ruminants (deer) so I traded it in for a 30-06.

John

John

Read your post with interest. IMHO it epitomizes the problem.

I am an old guy who doesn't even hunt anymore but when I did I would never think of taking a 500 yard shot. 400 yards was a loooong shot and most were taken at under 200 yards. And I hunted almost exclusively in the Western States (and Alaska) with its wide open spaces. If I could not get within 270W or 30-06 range I didn't shoot.

I now shoot long range Benchrest (600 and 1000 yard) and these stories about shots at animals at these distances make me laugh. My LR rifles are the best that money can buy and I shoot with some of the best LR riflemen in the world and I don't think there is one of us who would attempt a shot at an animal at 600 or 1000 yards. We know how difficult it is to hit a target the size of an animal's vitals first shot out of a cold barrel under good conditions. Throw in some wind and/or mirage and it's nearly impossible. That's why we shoot sighters before every record target.

And BTW the advantage of the higher velocity magnums is not their reduced time to target and reduced wind deflection. Wind deflection is a function of bullet shape and velocity and the bigger hunting bullets lose their velocity much faster than the smaller ones. Ballistic coefficient does not use bullet diameter or weight as a factor.

I know my comments will go over like a lead balloon. Nobody likes hearing the ramblings of the old guys like me. But I was like that once too when the oldtimers of my youth were on my case about those new fangled cartridges like the Winchester magnums.

Learn to estimate distances, learn to HUNT, learn to shoot and you won't need any rifle bigger than a 30-06. That is my humble ignorant farm boy opinion.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by cazador2:
maybe it is also time for you to reconsider getting down from the “magnum trainâ€.

What’s your opinion?

my opinion is that people who advise against magnums are as annoying as people who advise against standard calibers

free

Does that mean that all shooters are annoying?

As I said in my first post on this thread, I'm all for those new cartridges that show up almost daily, new rifles, new bullets, and new shooters. The more of us there are the easier it will be to defend our right to own guns and to argue about which cartridge is better.

Ray

This is like a guy that I once met that told me he preferred women with small boobs, practically flat chested. Go figure???????????????????????????????????????

quote:

As I said in my first post on this thread, I'm all for those new cartridges that show up almost daily, new rifles, new bullets, and new shooters. The more of us there are the easier it will be to defend our right to own guns and to argue about which cartridge is better.

Cheechako got it right--and the more new rifles guys buy, the more slightly used rifles they'll sell to finance the new ones. More bargains for me, irrespective of caliber.

Magnum Hunter,

those kind swallow...the ones with big boobs all figure that's all they need to contribute a lot of the time.



Rich
DRSS

Boomie,

MOPAR or NO CAR! I put my deposit down this week for the first stick-shift Hemi R/T Challenger...early September of next year. The SRT-8 will have a "shades of the past" bored and stroked version that will be 392 cubic inches and 550 horsepower.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
John

Read your post with interest. IMHO it epitomizes the problem.

I am an old guy who doesn't even hunt anymore but when I did I would never think of taking a 500 yard shot. 400 yards was a loooong shot and most were taken at under 200 yards. And I hunted almost exclusively in the Western States (and Alaska) with its wide open spaces. If I could not get within 270W or 30-06 range I didn't shoot.

I now shoot long range Benchrest (600 and 1000 yard) and these stories about shots at animals at these distances make me laugh. My LR rifles are the best that money can buy and I shoot with some of the best LR riflemen in the world and I don't think there is one of us who would attempt a shot at an animal at 600 or 1000 yards. We know how difficult it is to hit a target the size of an animal's vitals first shot out of a cold barrel under good conditions. Throw in some wind and/or mirage and it's nearly impossible. That's why we shoot sighters before every record target.

And BTW the advantage of the higher velocity magnums is not their reduced time to target and reduced wind deflection. Wind deflection is a function of bullet shape and velocity and the bigger hunting bullets lose their velocity much faster than the smaller ones. Ballistic coefficient does not use bullet diameter or weight as a factor.

I know my comments will go over like a lead balloon. Nobody likes hearing the ramblings of the old guys like me. But I was like that once too when the oldtimers of my youth were on my case about those new fangled cartridges like the Winchester magnums.

Learn to estimate distances, learn to HUNT, learn to shoot and you won't need any rifle bigger than a 30-06. That is my humble ignorant farm boy opinion.

Ray

Ray,

No offense taken. BC plays a part in wind deflection. But why would your wind deflection change between a .308 and a 300 win mag with the same bullet? You say it is velocity, but velocity is time/distance. So if the bullet is the same, the distance is the same, but the wind drift is different, the only variable that could change is "Time". It is precisely why the Army Marksmanship unit uses the 300 win in their bolt guns.

Also, 400-500 yds is a far cry from 600-1000. Very few people I know can hold a 6" circle past 500-600 yds.

The 340 weatherby firing a 225 gr Barnes TSX, if you sight in at 300 yds, a 400 yd shot will yield a 12" drop. 500 yds is roughly 34". Wind drift (10 mph) at 400 yds is roughly 12" at 500 yds its 18" In comparison, A 30-06 with a 180 gr TSX sighted at 250 yds will drop 18" at 400 yds and 42 inches at 500. Wind drift is 14" at 400 and 23" at 500.

The real problem with Magnums is not their new fangledness, rather that most people think of them as a crutch that will enable them to take an animal with a bad shot. Further instigating the problem is the fact that without practice, the recoil can be a bit much for the unaccustomed. Flinching can also be a big problem.

As for taking irresponsible shots, that is up to the hunter. I have never taken a shot that I thought was bad, even some where the range was only 75 - 100 yds. I have seen as much wasted game shot poorly with 30-06's than any other caliber (of course, it is the most widely sold).

Again, I really don't see the need for a 300 Win Mag for hunting, but a 338 I definately do.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
This is like a guy that I once met that told me he preferred women with small boobs, practically flat chested. Go figure???????????????????????????????????????

Actually I am one of those guys that prefer women with small boobs..

quote:

Originally posted by cazador2:
300 WM 30 06 300 WM 30 06 300 WM 30 06
DIST VEL f/s VEL f/s DIF ENER f/p ENER f/p DIF DROP DROP DIF
0 2960 2650 310 3503 2808 695
50 2831 2530 301 3204 2558 646 1.2 1.8 -0.6
100 2706 2412 294 2927 2327 600 2.8 3.8 -1
150 2584 2298 286 2669 2112 557 3.2 4.2 -1
200 2465 2187 278 2430 1913 517 2.3 3 -0.7
250 2350 2079 271 2207 1728 479 0 0 0
300 2237 1974 263 2001 1559 442 -3.9 -5 1.1
350 2128 1873 255 1810 1402 408 -9.5 -12.3 2.8
400 2022 1775 247 1634 1259 375 -17.1 -22 4.9

Your chart is skewed to minimize the difference between the two cartridges. Look at the difference in trajectory at 150 yards, the 30.06 is 1" higher. Sighting in 4.2" high at 150 yards is risky to me.

To be realistic set up your chart so that both bullets only rise 3" above the line of sight and you'd see that the 30.06 would be dropping significantly more than the 300 at every distance from 300 yards on.

id rather get run over by a 18wheeler than a mini anyday.

quote:

Originally posted by MLG:
Youre right - but life sure would be boring if we all only had 30-06s!

There'd be a lot more venison in the freezer if we did!

cazador2 ----- I am not worried about getting into the Magnum levels, I wanted to do just that, in order to be better armed for the animals I was hunting. For Deer sized animals it does not matter, I hunted for years with a .308 and 30-30 and felt very well armed. Then I took a trip to Alaska for Brown Bear and Caribou and after taking a 91/5 footer with a .300 Winny, the experience told me to get something even bigger. Now when in big Bear country I pack a .358 STA and shoot it enough for it to be second hand. My brother-in-law packed a 30-06 for his first Bear hunt and after downing his Bear charging at 40 yards, decided to go to something bigger. If you ever go to Big Bear country let us know how you feel. Bottom line --- I didn't go to the larger chamberings until I felt the need to be able to shoot much more fire power to be safe in the places I wanted to go hunting. It is not all a distance thing, sometimes it is an energy need, the Magnums fill the bill on both. Yep you can hunt anywhere with a 30-06 and many have, but if you shot the bigger stuff enough to become instinctive in their use, you are better armed, particularly for the dangerous stuff. My .02 for what it is worth to you. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
This is like a guy that I once met that told me he preferred women with small boobs, practically flat chested. Go figure???????????????????????????????????????

Actually I am one of those guys that prefer women with small boobs..

I just like them with two boobs. Women with one leaves my right hand wanting something to do, if they have three, I just get confused.

John

Yeah but . . .

When you're out in the rural Oregon woods and come across "Bubba's Mile Post 18 Guns 'n Grub" you're going to find they have 30-06, 30-30, and maybe 270 on a good day.

Iff'n they's all out of ammo because the road got washed out or there's been a storm, ol' Bubba is going to have a box of 30-06 in the truck. He'll spot you the ammo "if you promise to come on back with a replacement next time you're passing through."

Seriously, you can find 30-06 ammo under the cushions in most rural sofas. *LMAO*

And it's deer, elk, and maybe a cat in the woods. You ain't stalking no elephant on the Serengeti.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Boomie,

MOPAR or NO CAR! I put my deposit down this week for the first stick-shift Hemi R/T Challenger...early September of next year. The SRT-8 will have a "shades of the past" bored and stroked version that will be 392 cubic inches and 550 horsepower.

Rich
DRSS

woo hoo!!!

See this just goes to show that variety is the spice of life. Let people who like magnum rifles shoot them an quit trying to defend the standard calibers. For goodness sake don't force a man to like small boobs or big ones for that matter. Just enjoy them all. They are all useful.

quote:

WHY ARE WE SO WORRIED IN GETTING INTO “MAGNUM†LEVELS ?

Velocity is mainly the TOOL to get the bullet there, and that is distance related. Magnums were primarily designed for long-range hunting. Long shots need more velocity to counter wind deflection and to give you a bit better trajectory. That is the terrain for the Magnum, but if your hunting is mostly under 200 yards, you don't need a Magnum with that extra recoil.

The crux of bullet performance is that the bullet must impact at velocities that the bullet can handle. Even with premium expanding bullets it has been shown that you get the best results between 2,100 and 2,200 fps. Naturally with expanding monolithics the window can be shifted upwards. My experience is that at these impact velocities you get a slower set-up rate of expansion, maximum weight retention and beautiful mushrooms, as the petals are not over stressed. I just believe that a bullet is so much more effective when it stays together, and when it is directed at the vitals fully expanded with no loss of petals to cut the largest wound channel that the bullet is capable of. A mere 200 fps velocity makes a notable difference in most bullets, especially when you exceed its threshold limit.

Here is a good case in point. The 160gr/7 mm Rhino bullet, loaded to 2,480 fps (mild load) gives me consistently a near full weight retention ratio that mushrooms to 17 millimeters - quite big for a 7 mm bullet that expands to 2.4 times of its original diameter. In a typical hunting situation at 200 yards, this load will yield a striking velocity of 2,100 fps (which I consider as most ideal). The bullet stays together and creates a sizeable wound channel for a little 7 mm bullet - little wonder that it performs so well. This combo makes it one of the most comfortable loads and still being amazingly effective on medium game. Most people tend to focus on power and velocity and overlook bullet performance.

The external ballistics of the above load are as follows:

Vital height to LOS for Point-blank Range = 2.0 inches (for accurate shooting)
Height of scope above bore axis = 1.5 inches
BC of bullet = .435
Muzzle velocity = 2,480 fps

And the results are:

Velocity @ 100 yds = 2,286 fps
Velocity @ 150 yds = 2,192 fps
Velocity @ 200 yds = 2,100 fps

Optimal sight-in range or Zero = 181 yds, will strike at 2,135 fps
Highest point of mid-trajectory = will strike 2" high above LOS between 90 and 120 yds
Point-blank range = will strike 2" lower than LOS at 211 yds with 2,080 fps

Not bad - I can live with this !!!
Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 Govt.:
Yeah but . . .

When you're out in the rural Oregon woods and come across "Bubba's Mile Post 18 Guns 'n Grub" you're going to find they have 30-06, 30-30, and maybe 270 on a good day.

Iff'n they's all out of ammo because the road got washed out or there's been a storm, ol' Bubba is going to have a box of 30-06 in the truck. He'll spot you the ammo "if you promise to come on back with a replacement next time you're passing through."

Seriously, you can find 30-06 ammo under the cushions in most rural sofas. *LMAO*

And it's deer, elk, and maybe a cat in the woods. You ain't stalking no elephant on the Serengeti.

yeah, but under every pillow is a few rounds of 300win mag...

quote:

Even with premium expanding bullets it has been shown that you get the best results between 2,100 and 2,200 fps.

A good site to visit that portrays the same scenario is the one of Nortfork,
which you can see at http://www.northforkbullets.com/284-160.htm

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
yeah, but under every pillow is a few rounds of 300win mag...

I just looked under my pillows.....all of them...and sure enough the tooth Fairy left 300 Win Mag ammo under all of them.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
yeah, but under every pillow is a few rounds of 300win mag...

I just looked under my pillows.....all of them...and sure enough the tooth Fairy left 300 Win Mag ammo under all of them.

You're lucky vapo. All I found was a Ritz Cracker. And a stale one at that.

Ray

not "we".
some maybe. not the majority.
the vast majority of hunters use standard calibers. look at ammo and component sales.
I have killed 95% of my animals with a 308 caliber soft point.
the rest were a combination of 30-06, 243, 257 weatherby, 270 weatherby, 7x57, 45-70, 444, 30-30, 12 gauge, 45LC, 357 mag and 50 cal BP.
i did kill one with a 7mm STW. two days before i sold it.
but i have only been hunting for 23 years, i got a late start.
maybe i should run out get one of "dem dare magnims".

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
You're lucky vapo. All I found was a Ritz Cracker. And a stale one at that.

Ray

Quick, load it up and shoot it, we'll call it the 500 Ritz magnum!

John

Here is what works for me: I like Ruger M77 rifles. I prefer their short actions to their long actions. So I bought a Ruger M77 in 300 RSAUM. It gives me 30-06+P performance, in a short action.

IMHO the real advantage of the various .300 Mags is their ability to shoot 200gr bullets at the same speed the .30-06 shoots 180gr bullets.
But most people that shoot the .300WM use 165gr or 180gr bullets, which makes no sense to me; that's just a faster .30-06...

I agree with the idea that if you want more then a .30-06 the logical step up is .338WM, not .300WM.

Thanks a lot for your input,I think I'll stick with my trusty 30-06 for a while.