quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Short of the DGR hunters, I've never seen it expressed that factory guns need to be reworked to be reliable.

It has been stated that to get peak reliability, every factory rifle has a weekness or two that can be improved upon.

What I can't figure out is why folks feel the need to bash others who spend more money or have more work done on guns then they do. It strikes me as an extension of the hunter who has only hunted one species in his back 40 for 30 years, who thinks that knowledge trancends to every species hunted in all the various terrain they are hunted in.

Sufface to say, there is more to a hunting rifle then shooting a 3 shot group at 100 yds, just as there is more to hunting then sitting in a stand and popping a whitetail at 300 yds.

It's a big world and what, where and how we hunt may be very different than what, where and how you hunt. So too are the requirements we place on our equipment.

Good comments Paul.

quote:

Herein lies the crux and real issue of the matter. "Can you show me" really means "I'm too lazy to check for myself". Doesn't it?

It actually means that since even the person that originally posted the statement that I quoted stated that there would be no gain in accuracy,and I have no no problems with the feeding or reliability of my rifles,why would I spend thousands of extra dollars in order to see if the more expensive rifle functioned any better.

Stubblejumper, I can answer "yes" to all of the above, and I can put rifles in your hand that will prove all of the listed points.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:It was written by Ambrose that a principle reason for the rapid advance of the allies from Normandy was that the average GI could fix his stuff and the average Euro could not. This is where I stand. I can fix my own stuff and that's a satisfying combination to me.

If that's the case, why are Mauser 98's so desirable?

quote:

Short of the DGR hunters, I've never seen it expressed that factory guns need to be reworked to be reliable.

However there is a constant theme from maybe one person that his guns are necessary and others will not cut it. If it's not reliablity then what is it? Perhaps accuracy? Come out to the range and prove it.

"It has been stated that to get peak reliability, every factory rifle has a weekness or two that can be improved upon."

This contradicts what you said before. In any case it's just transferance that because someone spent more money it's somehow more reliable.

CT had a custom gunsmith that lived near me. He was a real beaut. He could do very fine stock work and metal work as well but you had to kiss up and wait forever. My late dad and I did our own work. We were not "gunsmiths" but my dad was a very skilled metal worker.

This gunsmith also shot with our big bore team. He was not a good shot at all and usually was on the last team. In one match his front sight fell off and rolled down the bank in front of the line. Someone called out "Cease fire while custom gunsmith retrieves his front sight"

I checked my own guns and won the high average award year after year.

"What I can't figure out is why folks feel the need to bash others who spend more money or have more work done on guns then they do."

It's just fine to spend more. I don't think anyone has bashed those who do. Perhaps there was a response to what was perceived as bragging. Now I may well spend more time and effort on sorting thru and tweaking factory rifles than someone would in just having it done by others.

It would be difficult to separate that as one man may make lots of money at his trade and then farm out the gun work. This would follow the economic theory of free trade using the most efficient producer. It's really a good idea.

However I, for one, enjoy doing it myself. I feel a self reliance doing it.

"It strikes me as an extension of the hunter who has only hunted one species in his back 40 for 30 years, who thinks that knowledge trancends to every species hunted in all the various terrain they are hunted in."

It may or may not. If the conditions are the same the demand on the gun are the same. Hot, cold, wet etc. All the same.

There is an author by the name of Arthur Beiser who signs his writings A.B.
Beiser has a doctorate in physics, lives in Lle des Embiez, France and has more money than I do.

Beisers book "The Proper Yacht" is a compulation of opinions that concludes that nothing is good enough except what Beiser currently owns. Nothing is good enough unless it's custom built in Holland by Abeking and Rassumsen or wherever Beisers current opinion takes him.

Beiser had his yacht in Newport, RI the nations yachting capitol for outfitting to cross the Atantic again. He got his friends on board all off they went. About halfway out a hose broke on a thru hull fitting. At least this is what Beiser concludes. In any case he could not figure it out as he does not work on his boat being very rich. He has others do it for him.

Beisers boat sank and is at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean at this time.

quote:

In any case he could not figure it out as he does not work on his boat being very rich. He has others do it for him.

Beisers boat sank and is at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean at this time.

quote:

There is an author by the name of Arthur Beiser who signs his writings A.B.
Beiser has a doctorate in physics, lives in Lle des Embiez, France...

Hey, what's a French guy doing flying an American flag on his yacht???

How is stating one's experience on this board bragging?

Someone pointed out earlier that you get villified for being an armchair quarterback and then you get villified if you have a ton of experience.

I can say this about old Allen Day: you don't have to agree with him. I certainly don't on every point. But I listen to what he writes, because I know he has a lot of experience. And the fact that he signs his name has allowed me to call a few friends in the business - he has shot a lot of stuff. So have others, I am sure. I listen to their advice. Some are very specialized in terms of their hunting experience. I don't have to use anyone's advice, but I would be a fool not to at least consider it.

4K may sound like a lot for a rifle, but how many of you have quads or snowmachines in the driveway? Guess what? I never owned one and I am quite sure my trophy room has not suffered due to that.

Looks like old AB needs to write "The Proper Yacht" THIRD EDITIION.

I do find it strange that people feel the need to spend 10k plus on a rifle to get one which is accurate and reliable.
In my expirience medium priced rifles such as Sako are generally both reliable and accurate right off the shelf...If you want to loose the wood and go with a quality sythetic stock, I bet you still wouldn't be in for more than $1800 and I would expect it to shoot sub 1" groups.

Now if your taking about something more off beat such as chambering a rifle in some specialist wildcat or cuting apart two actions to weld together a longer magnum action, thats where I could imagine paying big $$ to get a good smith..

Pete, you don't need to spend $10K to have a good and reliable rifle. About seven years ago, one of my long-time hunting partners decided he was sick of owning so many mediocre factory rifles, and I sold him a Mark Penrod-built set of custom Model 70s (McMillan stocks) I had in 270 Win. and 338 Win. Mag., and these rifles were well under half of $10K apiece, but both of them are superbly reliable and accurate, durable, weather-proof, and never change zero. After he bought these two rifles, he sold off all his other rifles, and he hasn't been hunting with anything else ever since. His feeling is that he wished he'd come up with a basic, high-quality rifle battery like that years before.....

Savage, listen to me: I'm no stranger to "do-it-yourself" factory-enhanced and semi-custom hunting rifles. I'm a farm boy, and by the time I was fifteen I was no stranger to the welding shop, the machine shop, carpentry, or the woodshop. I spent a lot of years rebuilding equipment, and largely fed, clothed, and sent myself through college by these trades. This spilled over into hunting rifles, to be sure, and I've reworked scores and scores of basic factory rifles that ended up working satisfactorily and got the job done. So if you think, for one solitary second, that I hire top riflesmiths to create custom jobs because I don't know how to turn a screwdriver myself, you couldn't be more mistaken.

I DO hire them because they are trained, career professionals at what they do and they take riflebuilding way beyond that of any home do-it-yourselfer, and way beyond the skill of the average crossroads gunsmith. I've owned the gamut of rifles of every grade you can think of, and believe me, I DO know the difference, and I DO know what consitutes money well-spent, versus money poorly-spent. What they build WORKS, and serves as the best possible insurance policy you could ever take out on many years of hunting. Price a few African hunts, Alaskan hunts, etc.. and you'll see what I mean. Have a rifle fail in the face of dangerous game, as I have, and see if cutting corners on this stuff makes any sense whatsoever -- talk about false-economy........ And besides, great rifles can last for generations and keep you alive for the rest of your hunting career.

There's a pervading notion (human nature is something else!) that somehow all rifle discussions are supposed to fit within the parameters of everyone's individual budget and set of personal experiences, or else they're not supposed to be brought up at all. That is, unless the rifles in question provide great cosmetic gratification -- then it's OK......I guess!

AD

At one time I owned rifles by the following manufacturers: Steyr, Winchester, Sako, Brno, CZ, and Heym. All were reliable shooters, but some were smoother, and more accurate than others. I still own .375 Heym with quality express sight plus factory detachable mount and Hertel & Reuss telescope. It offers high quality to price ratio.

Allen,

For such a superb writer, such as yourself, to remain so unconvincing leaves me relaxed and confident of my position.

Firearms are very simple devices with few moving parts. They were the first product to be mass produced and to this day remain reliable. Of course every mass produced $800 gun is not as smooth or accurate out of the box. The crux of this discussion is if a reasonable effort by the guns owner or perhaps the local smith is enough to make it a good gun or must every firearm on this good green earth pass thru the hands of Michaelangelo.

To each his own. For sure this forum has become more civilized and erudite than ever. I welcome more facts on why $7000 rifles are necessary.

Pete,

Hill Country Rifle Company makes an excellent product for a decent price.
http://www.hillcountryrifles.com/index.asp

Roland

Come on Savage, the subject of Rifles goes well beyond the few parts of wood and steel, and you know it. Or would you say the same thing about a Raphael painting as just being a piece of canvas, a few pieces of wood, and some oil pigments?

There is more to it than the functionality, and the parts, etc. There is the art, and the pride of ownership, both of which are very individualistic and subjective.

I don't think Allen Day, or ForrestB, or anyone else who has the means to purchase what many would consider expensive equipment, would ever put down someone for using factory equipment. I don't see that as their argument. Rather, they defend their reasons for using what they use. I am sure Allen would say it is much better to use an old beat up Mauser 98 and go deer hunting than to sit in the house during the season and watch TV.

Its okay to disagree on the functional art itself (i.e. wood vs glass, stainless v. chrome moly, custom built v factory built, etc.) but not okay to bash another person for being an individual and liking what they like.

If Allen wants to hunt with an Echol's rifle and somebody else wants to hunt with a Miller and somebody else wants to hunt with a winchester out of the box, so what. We can discuss the merits of each choice, which is why we all love guns so much. Doesn't mean we have to put down the individual making the choice.

If we were all the same there wouldn't be anything different to buy, and what a dull world that would be.

I'm not for or aganinst anybody here. I jsut have an honest question. Can you just buy a factory rifle take it to a reliable gunsmith spend a few hundred dollars to have him go over it good and have a reliable rifle??
Just asking

AD,
Im curious now I am interested in more details about your rifle failing on you on the dangerous game hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
I understand why someone might prefer a Ruger #1 to a Hagn falling block, a Seiko to a Rolex and a Pentax binocular to a Leica; it is the very same level of appreciation that makes many people prefer "Hip-Hop" to "Eine Kleine Nacht Musik" and everyone is entitled to their own choices.....that's democracy!

Of course, there are those whose taste has inspired great artists and artisans throughout history, Savage 99's example of Buonarroti being a well known case in point as the impeccable taste of the men in the Vatican made the Sistine Chapel possible. But, hey, theres always "etch-a-sketch"!!!!

I don't recognize much here.
Now I don't know if I have poor taste, or am I just ignorant?

What I meant was simply that there are various levels of appreciation, quality and utility, these appear to differ among individuals and everyone can find their own niche.

One point concerning dangerous game and what it is about, this in response to Savage's comment concerning such animals. I would like to know what actual experience with Grizzlies, Lions, Cape Buffalo, etc. this opinion is based on? Last Sunday, I walked along the "One-Eye Road" in north-western B.C. where there was Grizzly poop aplenty; in my hands was my most treasured possession, my first P-64 Mod. 70 Alaskan in .338 with 250 NPs ready to rock. I have done a lot of this and I do not take dangerous animals lightly or use imperfect rifles for them, so, a perfectly tuned rifle by a serious pro like Echols or Simillion is a wise investment, IMHO.

quote:

I do not take dangerous animals lightly or use imperfect rifles for them, so, a perfectly tuned rifle by a serious pro like Echols or Simillion is a wise investment,

A serious pro! Oh come on. Guns have been working for centuries long before these guys were walking.

Any gun use can be critical and those of self defense and war are far more common than "dangerous game".

I still the view the "serious pro" group as just alpha male strutting or saying "my gun is better than yours".

quote:

I still the view the "serious pro" group as just alpha male strutting or saying "my gun is better than yours".

Perhaps because their gun is better. Truth is hard to argue with.

Well, I have always tended to respect your opinions and taste with respect to firearms, ie. "old' Mod. 70s, drillings, classic Brnos and so forth. However, this and your other posts on this thread strike me as being motivated by jealousy rather than personal experience with dangerous game. As to strutting, I think that reverse snobbery could be considered a particularly foolish form of that behaviour, especially when one does not have the field experience to base his opinions on. Frankly, I fail to see what the problem is with simply answering my question regarding dangerous game and the discussion here was not about military weapons.

My point is that military weapons can be and are replaced, even in the heat of battle and military personnel almost always work in units of several to many individuals which allows them to support each other. A wilderness hunter or worker is often alone and thus must depend on absolute functional reliablity in his rifle and, having been there, I know this to be true.

Simply because you do not wish to spend the bucks necessary to buy a given gun(s) does not mean that others should not do so....many people consider drillings, for example, to be a foolish waste of money and others would not buy a Brno 22F, altered by an amateur. So, your continual sniping at Allen is not as impressive as most of your posts and I am saddened to see it.

BTW, I have actually been deliberately shot at by a whacko with a rifle and have had other confrontations involving guns, so, I have firsthand knowledge of what is involved with some types of combat. One of the guys I sometimes shoot with is a retired RCMP Staff-Sargeant who coaches the BC division of the RCMP sniper-swat team; he uses highend custom rifles almost exclusively as do his subordinates. I think that this is also a wise investment.

quote:

Perhaps because their gun is better.

Maybe their gun is better. Lets for the sake of discussion say that by definition that it is. So for that matter so is Forrest B's gun "better" but in each case nobody can prove that it matters a whit.

Wait a minute. Maybe they can! Maybe their guns are jamming and failing all over the place and they are at their wits end?

Let Allen or Kute list the failures that they have experianced with other guns before they found that guns need to be blessed.

We have to give them the benefit of the doubt. When you see a guy wearing a belt and suspenders you wonder what happened in the past that he is trying to avoid.

This thread "in principle" has probably run a 100 times in the past and there i also the calibre version such as 30/378 Vs 300 Rum Vs 300 Win Vs 30/06

Those posters supporting the lower price rifle are forgetting that for the enthusiast it is not just a case of "it working" but "how nice it works". Same deal with cars.

I think those posters supporting the more expensive rifles are making the mistake of trying to justify such guns on improved function and/or accuracy.

If I wanted to make a hunting style 300 Winchester tomorrow and I allocate the money to the rifle that and Echols or similar would cost then I can do as follows:

Use a Rem 700, Sako extractor, HS Precision magazine and have enough money left over to buy and select the best chambered match barrel out of 20 barrels Or I could start with a HS Precision action. I will win the accuracy contest. With the centre line feed I will win the reliability department. That goes triple if the calibre is something like a 458 Win or 458 Lott loaded with very blunt or flat nose bullets.

However, I would prefer to have the Echols rifle.

The bottom line is that for some figure, perhaps $1500US to $2500US you can achieve all the accuracy and function and from that point on it is all about "how it feels". Kind of like alloy bottom metal Vs all steel. Which would you prefer on a higher level rifle. Truth be known, propably some of the plastics would be the best for the floor plate and trigger guard assembly.

Mike

Savage, the truth is, you haven't done much hunting of any kind, you have never faced dangerous game, and you've never had any experience whatsoever with the rifles in question. But you have the zinc-plated gall to try and argure about all of this stuff anyway! Good grief, who are you trying to hoodwink here, anyway?

All opinions aren't created equal........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
... Can you just buy a factory rifle take it to a reliable gunsmith spend a few hundred dollars to have him go over it good and have a reliable rifle??...

Of course you can, but you will also be "wasting" the extra money you spend on it about 97% of the time, to just make it "reliable".

If it doesn't have an adjustable trigger, don't buy it. Most Triggers can be easily adjusted at home. If you are uncomfortable doing it, plan to have the Trigger "gone over" for $25-$35. If you are interested in a Bolt Action, buy it new, clean the barrel really well before you ever fire it, lightly lube it, run a couple of dry patches through to remove any excess lube and Dry Fire it as much as possible.

Select a Cartridge that has been around for 20 years or more and all the factories will have figured out the correct Feed Lip angles so they "normally" feed well.

Begin Reloading (if you don't already) and take 20-30 rounds to the Range to "break-it-in" by following the normal Break In routine.

Continue Dry Firing at home as much as possible. And go to the Range once a week if only for 4-5 hours with your new Center Fire and a 22LR(of the same basic style) to use while the barrel is cooling on the Center Fire.

By the time you do that from March though October (in KY), your rifle will be as slick as the Democrat(wanting to be Governor) Stumbo trying to convince folks he is not after the Fletcher Administration simply due to politics.

Your confidence in the rifle will be at a peak simply because it fired every time you pulled the trigger and saw every cartridge extract and eject just as it is supposed to. Basically 100% reliable.

As a nice additional benefit, all the Trigger Time will shrink your groups to where a person would be tempted to "brag" about them, but there is enough of that done on the UL Cards and UK Cats to wear your ears out already.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Savage, the truth is, you haven't done much hunting of any kind, you have never faced dangerous game, and you've never had any experience whatsoever with the rifles in question. But you have the zinc-plated gall to try and argure about all of this stuff anyway! Good grief, who are you trying to hoodwink here, anyway?

All opinions aren't created equal........

AD

Allen,

In my view your the one who's hoodwinked. The amusing thing about your dogma is that you seem to believe that your intimidating someone else.

Now step forward and tell us of all the failures of your guns. I have been hunting longer than you Allen. It's not about that however, it's about you failing to make a point that the most expensive possible plastic stocked gun with a brazed on investment cast bolt is somehow a requirement.

Confess Allen, tell us about how a person could get to the position that you find yourself in. Now we can all understand that your gun got wet or your gun got rusty. But tell us how your guns have been failing to fire or that they jam.

"My insecurity brings all the shrinks to the yard,
and their like,
mine's better than yours,
damn right is better than yours,
i can’t teach you,
my beauty is a mirage… "

Savage

Perhaps Allen will confirm it one way or the other but I wonder if D'Arcy replaces the M70 bolt handle and welds on the replacement.

The Canadian gunsmith Bill Leeper said Winchester has changed from having the bolt handle on a spline to being pressed onto a knurled section.

Mike

I should have left that out about the bolt handle. As long is it's done right the heck with it.

I have experienced about five failures of a mechanical nature with various firearms since 1964, when I first started hunting here in B.C. The rifles in question were a Winchester Mod. 94, .30-.30, A Brno 21H 7x57, a Sako Finnwolf in .308, a Ruger M-77 in .338 Win. and a Husqvarna Mod. 4100, 7x57. Fortunately, these incidents did not take place while I was dealing with a bear problem, however, they could have. In my 41 years of western Canadian firearm use, involving being alone for extended periods in some of the most remote wilderness left anywhere on this planet, I have found that ANY mechanical device can malfunction and usually will do so at the worst possible moment.

Now, I don't know who has been hunting the longest, shot the most game or is the finest raconteur of tales of nimrodean derring-do, but, I know what I have seen and my experiences have led me to consider the investment in a top grade custom rifle, boots, binocular, backpack, etc. to be a sound choice for me. I couldn't care less what guns anyone chooses and I realize that everyone has different priorities and needs, ie., a Whitetail stand hunter in New England, for example, probably is not too concerned about Grizzlies, but, here in B.C., this is a constant and real concern and it certainly affects my choice of rifles.

quote:

The rifles in question were a Winchester Mod. 94, .30-.30, A Brno 21H 7x57, a Sako Finnwolf in .308, a Ruger M-77 in .338 Win. and a Husqvarna Mod. 4100, 7x57.

We need the details of each failure please.

"Savage, how about it? Or are you going to keep on dodging, ducking, and pretending?

AD"

We need details of your hunting experience please. Something besides whitetail deer would be nice. This sidestepping others questions while demanding answers to your own is getting old.

Chuck

Chuck, I agree.

Savage, how about it? Or are you going to keep on dodging, ducking, and pretending?

AD

Another voice here that echoes Kutenay's. I also live, work and hunt in some of the higher grizzly density areas of BC, and my choice in rifles is strikingly similar to his. I am a fair bit younger than him (and I assume much better looking ) but my experiences have led me to similar conclusions.

A few years back, after I faced down a grizzly for the first time, I changed my diapers and thought hard about rifles. After the research, I had a GOOD riflemaker I trust build a couple of using rifles for me. They happen to be built on controlled feed M70's. They are 100% proven to feed, go bang and eject every single time, and I trust them completely. The confidence this inspires when stalking down a alder-covered stream after moose while stepping on grizzly tracks in the mud has to be experienced to appreciate. The entertaining thing now is how many internet dangerous-game experts from grizzly-ridden places like Alabama belittle a rifle like mine!

I know for sure that I don't have the experience of many on this board. I do however have my own. I have hunted Grizzlies 3 times, and have been around a few more while I was Moose hunting, a couple of times real close, close enough to watch their muscles ripple as they walked by. I've also seen how much ground they can cover in just a few seconds. Impressive to say the least. After my first 2 hunts in Alaska, I returned with a Model 70. I started up there with a Remington Classic in 300 Weatherby, switched to Weatherby Ultra Light in same, then to the Model 70 in 338 Win Mag.

I have experienced "stove-pipe" jams with the push feed rifles. Fortunately I've never been charged by any thing, except a psychotic rooster I used to own .

I could care less what anybody else uses, but for the very little dangerous game hunting I've done, I want a CRF that works like it's supposed to. As I can afford it, my guns will continue to be made even more reliable. Fortunately, my SS Classic works real well right now.

I personally wish I could afford one of those guns made by the high-end gun builders, in time, I'd surely like to. To me, they seem like money well spent, and I can certainly understand why someone would spend the money on a DG rifle. Here's an example, Nome is considered "Bush Alaska", you fly in, or boat in. Now imagine driving away from Nome 80 miles to the end of the road, then going another 25 miles into the tundra. That's a long ways from another gun. If the gun you are using breaks, your not going to drive home and get another one. If a person hunts like that often enough, and in different parts of this world, the cost of a 4000, or even 5000 dollar rifle starts to seem pretty insignificant in my opinion. "Your milage may vary..."

Savage, you did not respond to my query concerning your personal experience with dangerous game, yet, you presume to speak for others when you demand details of the rifle failures I have experienced. I find this to be just a bit over the top and I notice that other guys who actually hunt/work/live where encounters with dangerous game are a frequent occurrence tend to agree with my opinion on this issue.

So, I think that your real agenda on this thread has buggerall to do with rifles or hunting; you are simply jealous of Allen Day and his obvious wealth and hunting activity. You tell us that you have been hunting for longer than he has, o.k. fine, then give us details of the Grizzly encounters you have had or your African experience or your Ovis Poli hunt(s). Simply put, I think that opinions on rifles should be based on "hands-on experience" rather than obvious envy.

My worst rifle failure actually occured while using a "custom" Mauser 98. It was built by a couple of idiots, and was fueled by hard earned money, my own!

I should have known better, but I was young, and just had to have a "custom Mauser." It was "custom" alright.

In 1987, I was Elk hunting a long the Yakima Indian reservation. I spotted a 5 pt. bull at dusk that I guess was about 250 yards away, maybe a little more. I dropped to a knee, tried to hold steady, and let one go. The bull dropped, and then immediately got back up. Only problem was that when I shot, and then cycled the bolt, my gun became a "break down" rifle. The bolt handle came off the bolt. I lost that bull. It rained all night, and though I spent all of the next day looking for it, I never found it. Some friends of mine who bow-hunt the same area found it the next year. Full carcass, or I should say skeleton, beautiful, mature 5pt. bull. That was the worst experience I've ever had while hunting.

I originally intended to use that gun in Alaska. Sure glad it broke down here. I eventually gave the gun to another gunsmith, one I still use to this day. He advised me not to shoot the gun due to "poor workmanship", and that is an understatement.

I don't have a ton of hunting experience. but I don't need it to form the opinion that the better the equipment the less likely you will have a problem. And for those of us that LOVE guns we also care about how good they look. You don't have to pay a fortune to get one, get one used. 3500 is a great deal if you think about what work went into it. I have a rifle in the safe (sadly neglected because haven't had hte money to scope it since buying it 4 years ago) that I only paid 500 for, would cost 3 times that, or more, just to have a rifle stocked that way.

Whatever you pay for that rifle, if it is built by a really good gunsmith, it is an investment in years of reliable hunting and joy of ownership. not to mention that it makes a good heirloom. (no offense, they are good off the shelf rifles but I don't think any guy ever thought about his grandfathers rifle,"I'd really like that Savage 110 some day".)

You can hunt everything you ever want to with an old marlin 30-30 lever gun and may never have a problem, may always get your game etc. Every time you go hunting though you are basically gambling. when I hunt deer I don't not succeed for lack of effort, I try harder than most of the guys that I personally know (true, not as hard as I could, but pretty hard). But they outsmart me. Now, my investment is gas to the mountains, and vittles. Not bad. But if I were going on a hunt say in Idaho, chartered in flight to remote area, then 7+ mile hike in to hunt (as some on this board do!) then a POSSIBLE FAILURE becomes more of an issue. Even more so when paying to go to Africa or dealing with an animal that has big claws and mean teeth.

We are hunters, not gunsmiths, even those of us that are amatuer or think we work on our guns, we aren't masters at it. We look at our gun, take it hunting and try this and that and tweak the obvious stuff. The top guys like Fisher and Olson and Wisner etc., they are the ones that look for what we would never think of, things that could fail, that 1% of the time. 1% failure doesn't matter unless it happens. but if it does at abn inopportune moment then it matters very much. I have a 35 whelen ackley improved that is a custom. douglas barrel, custom stock, good rifle. done by local shop (I have since stopped using because of the work they turn out). I have hunted with it (but not taken a shot). was getting ready last year to take it on my paid pig hunt that I had been saving for a while. (I had just paid for part of my wedding and a honeymoon). shooting range, "click", started failing about 1 in 7-10 shots. had to go to a backup rifle. the gunsmith building the rifle for my stepfather ran dummies through it 200+ times in every different manner he could think of and decided to make a change because IT MIGHT FAIL IN THIS SITUATION.

its pretty damn arrogant for somebody to say someone who buys the best only does so because they want to brag or enhance their image. Normally people buy the best they can afford. When I scuba dove I bought the best equipment I could for the class of diving I planned on doing. When I had my motorcycle I bought the best helmet, jacket, boots and gloves I could afford. Did I make fun of my friend that rode with the lesser quality stuff? no. Did I get upset and try and piss in the cheerios of my friend that had the really great modern riding clothes and the fancier helmet? no. If somebody has something better than you what do you care? Be happy and try and borrow it

Personally I would downsize what i have and go for a few very nice ones, but the ones I have aren't worth enough money! I'll just have to get good enough myself that I can turn them into something nicer and then sell them off to finance my future custom rifles.

Red

Red

Apart from function...at the end of day it is good to have nice gear.

It is also profitable in my opinion. Much better to work out ways of earning enough money to buy the expensive rifle as opposed to trying to get the best from $1000. The latter is like socialism, that is, trying to work out the best way to get the most milk from one cow.

Mike

quote:

its pretty damn arrogant for somebody to say someone who buys the best only does so because they want to brag or enhance their image. Normally people buy the best they can afford. When I scuba dove I bought the best equipment I could for the class of diving I planned on doing. When I had my motorcycle I bought the best helmet, jacket, boots and gloves I could afford. Did I make fun of my friend that rode with the lesser quality stuff? no. Did I get upset and try and piss in the cheerios of my friend that had the really great modern riding clothes and the fancier helmet? no. If somebody has something better than you what do you care? Be happy and try and borrow it

I actually think that if a person knows what he is looking for, he can pick up a pretty decent rifle for not much money. I think the Sears FN 98 rifles qualify as such. They aren't fancy, and usually aren't much to look at, but the actions (FN 98'S) are as reliable as they come. Only problem is you are limited to 30-06, or 270, which isn't all bad.

Change the trigger, use the original FN flag safety, or a Model 70 style, add a recoil pad, refinish the stock, and you have a very dependable rifle for very little money. To duplicate that rifle using a quality Military 98 donor action would cost close to 1500 to 2000 dollars I would think. It doesn't look like a 4000 thousand dollar rifle, but it might be just as reliable...

I'd rather have the 4000 dollar rifle myself, but I have 4 girls who seem to be quite adept at spending my custom rifle money. So, for now I'm on a Sears Roebuck budget!