JBabcock, you've got plenty of solid experience to bring to the table in any rifle discussion, and I almost always finding myself agreeing with your comments, as well as Kute, AZ, Paul, Chuck, Brad, John S, Jorge, and a number of other guys who I consider to be friends. I agree that if you use your head, select well, test thoroughly, and maybe employ a good gunsmith as needed that you can come up with a really good and reliable rifle for not a whole lot of money.

Your Sears FN Mauser is a good example or that, as is the FN Browning High-Power, pre-64 Model 70, solid used custom rifles, etc. Now anyone can go down to Kmart and lay down their money for a Savage 110, but it takes a lot more understanding and work find a solid used rifle that's worth owning. And the funny thing is, the price is often not that much more than for a Browning A-Bolt, Remington 710, or some other atrocity. Smart money wins every time!

You mentioned smokestack jams. I sat at a campfire in Tanzania one time visiting with a professional hunter who told a story about a Model 700 that smokestacked on him during a high-noon episode with a buffalo, and this muckup almost got him killed. At the end of that season, he had a custom Mauser built in 416 Rem. Mag. that never failed him in any way, and that he treasured. One more example of "your money or your life -- take your pick!"

Savage, you may well have been hunting longer than me, I wouldn't argue that with you. My uncle was in the service longer than my dad was as well, but during the course of a 20-some year career in the military, he didn't come close to the mind-boggling combat experience my dad went through on the front lines for thirty-seven months in Tunisia, Sicily, and Italy between 1942 and 1945.

You think about that..............

AD

Are the plastic stocked rifles made by Kenny Jarrett too expensive?

Wink, I've owned one of those as well.

To answer your question, yes, they're too expensive for what you're getting..........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Stubblejumper, I can answer "yes" to all of the above, and I can put rifles in your hand that will prove all of the listed points.

AD

Allen, If I have the time to fly over for a visit in the next year or so, I would highly appreciate that offer being open to me as well. I might just give you a call in the first-place to have a good discussion.

Chuck, great posts. The difficulty with those of us (Stubblejumper, if I may include you in this) is that the true value proposition of an Echols vs. a Rifles Inc. vs a semi-custom no-name riflesmith is very difficult to articulate. Yes, seeing is believing (to a point) but you have to communicate that extra-value to get some of us interested enough to try one out, let alone buy one.

Heck, as you and Allen may know, I first ordered a video from D'Arcy Echols over 1 year ago, then flew down to the SCI Convention twice to, in part, speak with him and other top smiths face-to-face.

Unfortunately, in my view, the video does not seem to communicate the ADDED-value of one of his rifles. A large part of the video was shooting paper animals targets out to 500 yards (to communicate accuracy)and snapshots of hunts (to put you in the shoes of the hunter with his rifle)- things that I can already do with my $500 1/2MOA Stainless-Synthetic Savage rifle.

Secondly, due to my lack of deep enough firearms knowledge to ask the right questions to differentiate between his rifles and less expensive alternatives, I was not able to get him to properly talk me through the added-value. As a consumer, it is his job to communicate the value proposition to me, not necessarily wait for me to ask the right questions. I will admit that he was very responsive to the questions that I did have and he is a nice guy to deal with.

I would have appreciated something like: the first 1.5K of a competitors rifle is spent on "pretty stuff" and making it accurate. We spend xx which involves these steps and it enables the rifle to do y. Further we spend 2k to specifically target reliability and functionality and by this we mean that we do these xx steps differently than our competitors and it produces these xyz results... Then I'd have to try my rifle and one of his rifles side-by-side.

So, all this comes down to what Stubblejumper mentioned- if the value proposition is not properly communicated, and our existing rifle options are already providing the accuracy and reliability that we perceive to be great, then why go out of our way to take a mini-MBA in riflesmithing to understand the added value. The added-value of any of the high-end rifles should be properly articulated and relatively easy to understand. If it isn't, then people start to lose interest.

I am hanging in there because of great feedback on D'Arcy's rifles from guys on this forum, but it becomes difficult when for 1/2 the price I can get something that, in my perception, will accomplish everything his rifles will- all a result from not having the added value being properly communicated to me in the first place.

Hope this makes sense after this long typing blurt. Allen, a few insights/high-level comments re: added-value vs. competitors would be appreciated. I will also commit to giving D'Arcy a call to ask him that exact question on value-proposition.

Thanks for reading.
CL

I think that there is a point here that the poster missed, in fact, there are a couple. First is that D'Arcy Echols is ALWAYS behind in his production and the wait time for a "Legend" is over a year; why then should he waste valuable production time marketing a product that he cannot produce enough of to meet the demand he now has....bad business, IMO.

Also, Echol's rifles were/are not really intended for novices or for those who are satisfied with whatever they may have; they are meant for those few people who want the functional best in a hunting rifle and think that the "Legend" fulfills that desire. So, why would D'Arcy again spend time teaching anyone that which is really the buyer's responsibility to learn for him/herself? He may well want to keep some of his gunsmithing techniques confidential as it has been his ingenuity and labour that has produced them, who could blame him?

I think that an Echol's "Legend" is a sound investment, however, I have no plans to acquire one as I am satisfied with the rifles I currently own. If, I were a younger, dedicated trophy hunter or were going back to work in wilderness conditions, solo, I would have one in .338 win., even if I had to sell all of my other guns to get it.

From reports I trust and one personal experience each, I wouldn't buy a sharpened Popsicle stick from Jarrett or Webernick, spending money to impress others never has interested me, but, quality like Echol's always has.

If anyone is familiar with racing vehicles, they will know that fasteners are safety wired in place. This does nothing for the speed or handling of the vehicle. Theoretically, properly torqued fasters will never come loose, but in the real hard use, serious vibrations and torques never envisioned by the designer of the engine and drivetrain occur which can cause the fasteners to come out, with dire consequences.

That is what extra dollars goes into with the top end rifle, every little detail that has caused problems in the past is addressed to assure the most reliable weapon that can be produced. If you want a gun that has had the builder go over everything he knows that can cause a problem and make it as good as he can, then get a top drawer gun. If you only care about accuracy, then don't spend the extra money.

It's the 80/20, you're getting the very last bit of reliability for a greatly increased price. Some people are uncompromising in the quality of their tools, and want to get the best that are made. Others want the minimum tool needed to do the job. Nothing wrong with either approach, it's a personal decision.

I'm personally hard on tools, and appreciate quality. I can't afford a top of the line rifle at this point, but I do understand what they offer. I don't begrudge the man that can afford what I can't, nor to begrudge the man that can but doesn't see the value in the extra money. I do have a problem with the man that badmouths those that buy the best they can, as at best it comes across as petty jelousy and ignorance of fine craftsmanship.

quote:

do have a problem with the man that badmouths those that buy the best they can, as at best it comes across as petty jelousy and ignorance of fine craftsmanship

I second that

I been watching this tread for some time now, and I thought I would not bother putting my two cents in, but I will. D'Arcy's rifle are as refined and one could buy at this time and place. In years gone by you could have said the same thing of John Rigbys, Holland and Holland etc. You paid for them, but on the other hand, you ended up with a rifle or shotgun that will last for generations. Some people no matter when, like well crafted things and are willing to pay for such things. A 7K Echol's while it sounds like a lot of money, may not be at all considering what the whole gambit of things cost. One of my best friends likes shotguns, love's them. He has more than a few, but when he goes pheasant hunting, he Shoots an almost perfect Winchester Model 12, a shotgun that winchester built for the masses. Looking at that gun today, you could not build it today and sell it for what a person will pay for a pump gun. Winchester put a lot into those, you could also say that about the Model 71, if recreated as they were originally, we would all have sticker shock. I was once told by a smith that wanted to recreat 1903 Mannlicher Schoenaurs like they were before the Wars, He found out that even with CNC machine tools he still would need a lot of handwork and he figuired that he would have to get 5K per rifle and maybe be able to make 3 or 4 a day. One thing I noticed, is that while I have seen one or two Dave Millers for sale, I have yet to see an Echol's come on the market. That may well be the most telling of all.

quote:

One of my best friends likes shotguns, love's them. He has more than a few, but when he goes pheasant hunting, he Shoots an almost perfect Winchester Model 12, a shotgun that winchester built for the masses. Looking at that gun today, you could not build it today and sell it for what a person will pay for a pump gun.

And your point is that the M12 is good for the job? A field grade M12 might be worth $500. Whats your point now? Now that he read this he is going to send it to some top smith?

quote:

(by Kutenay) The rifles in question were a Winchester Mod. 94, .30-.30, A Brno 21H 7x57, a Sako Finnwolf in .308, a Ruger M-77 in .338 Win. and a Husqvarna Mod. 4100, 7x57.

We need the details of each failure please.

"Savage, how about it? Or are you going to keep on dodging, ducking, and pretending?
AD"[/QUOTE]"

Allen and Kutenay,

Please answer the question in detail on what guns have failed on you.

Thanks

S99

I think for the most part guys understand the amount of work that goes into a custom rifle. In over 40yrs of hunting I've never had a rifle not feed etc so hard for me to understand the problems that some have. Why would someone buy a D'Arcy rifle instead of a Rigby bolt rifle or Holland & Holland rifle? Is a D'Arcy or D. Miller rifle better build?

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:
I think for the most part guys understand the amount of work that goes into a custom rifle. In over 40yrs of hunting I've never had a rifle not feed etc so hard for me to understand the problems that some have. Why would someone buy a D'Arcy rifle instead of a Rigby bolt rifle or Holland & Holland rifle? Is a D'Arcy or D. Miller rifle better build?

Tom,

While I have not had problems it might be because I check them out. Not all guns do operate right just like other things.

As to the value of a DE rifle it's not all that expensive considering that a top craftsman works on it. I just question that it's necessary for those of us who can check out our own guns.

Those H&H guns are really overpriced. I visted them and had a long talk. Allen Day is the real deal on hunting and those stuffed shirts at H&H are just overhead. A Legend rifle costs only $7000. A dupicate battery would cost only 50g's or so. Thats nothing compared to what many have invested in one car or boat. It's nice but not necessary is my point.

CL, you'd be welcome to visit anytime. My wife is a great and charming hostess, and Yamhill Co. has a lot to recommend it. We live in scenic farm country, with numerous, winerys, etc. E-mail me and we'll be in business.....

I'm not sure where to begin answering your question. I've owned custom "famous-maker" 'beanfield' rifles, and synthetic-stocked custom rifles of various grades besides what Echols builds, all of them costing less money. I had one 30-06 built by a gunsmith who lives near the southern Oregon coast. He never tested it, and never shot it before he sent it to me. When I got it, I put a round of Hornady factory ammo in the magazine, cycled the bolt, and the bullet stayed in the barrel and powder flew all over the place. Nice! Not only that, but he didn't redrill the scopemount holes to line 'em up with the axis of the bore after he blueprinted the action, so you have to move the left windage screw on the base as far out as it can go before the horizontal adjustment range of the scope is anywhere near center. This rifle cost about 1/3 of what Echols charges, but it isn't even worth all of that.........

The beanfield gun (338 Win.) was the most overrated rifle for any money I've ever owned, and the workmanship just wasn't all that great. To be honest, I hated this rifle, but I hunted with it for a few years to try to get some value out of it. Finally, I sold it, and felt a sense of relief when it was out of the house. It did shoot very well off the bench -- but ONLY with 225 gr. Hornady bullets, which have at times given me trouble on game by coming apart. The boob that built it used a Model 700 action that I sent him, then, contrary to what I wanted, he WELDED the precision-ground recoil lug to the receiver. You couldn't see it from the outside, but take the metal out of the stock and that welding job looked like heck. I could have used a ruby tip acetylene welder and done a better job than that when I was sixteen years old. And since welding warps steel, I wouldn't have welded a lug ground to .00010" uniformity in the first place. Sort of defeats the purpose, and the whimsical accuracy it exhibited was in part indicative of stresses in the receiver/bolt relationship. To top it off, he put a sythetic handle on it that was an obsolecent desing that exacerbated recoil with a scope. What a deal..........

I don't have time to write more now, but I wanted to provide some background to make a point -- accuracy off the bench with a custom rifle just isn't enough, not for hard-earned money, especially when other parts of the puzzle are missing. "Benchrest-accuracy" -- a term I dearly despise -- is no conclusive indicator of value or quality. Accurate rifles are EVERYWHERE these days. It's that part of performance and quality that goes beyond nuts & bolts accuracy that separates the pigs from the chickens and gets my attention. I've been let down too many times by rifles like those two turkeys I briefly described here.

I'll get to what Echols does differently tomorrow............

AD

So let me understand this a H&H at 50gs is over priced or Ribgy but a D'Arcy isn't at 7k and they are the same rifle but what about workmanship.

Echols is a shot in 'working rifle'. A 'Snap-on' tool if you will.
Cryo treated Krieger chrome-moly barrel, highly modified (much improved) Model 70 action, McMillan stock, Echols improved Weaver/Leupold QRW scope mounts.....
A modern Holland & Holland bolt gun? I don't know, what is it? Auguste Francotte Magnum Mauser polished up in London? I know ,a it's a "Fabrege Egg gun". Definitely not "working mans" rifle!
Look Holland, to some folks spending 50k is like buying $600 Remington, so I guess you could say H&H is cheaper than Echols.

Savage,

I think in some ways your views are similar to those people who have an accurate heavy barrel factory gun in 243 or similar and can't see the gain in a bench style rifle in 243.

Whether it be the bench style rifle or the Echols type rifle I think most people would agree that the law of diminishing returns is at work.

BUT the Echols type rifle must be superior to lesser rifles. Whether it is only 1% better does not matter.

You should also bear in mind that what you want from a rifle, whether you do it yourself or someone else does it for you....will be deemed as not being needed by other shooters.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Whether it be the bench style rifle or the Echols type rifle I think most people would agree that the law of diminishing returns is at work.

BUT the Echols type rifle must be superior to lesser rifles. Whether it is only 1% better does not matter.

Excellent observation, Mike.

If your personal requirements of a rifle are a no-compromise, every component and every function meticulously examined and enhanced to ring out the very last vestige of performance or appearance......you're going to pay handsomely for it. That type of hand work and dedication demands it.

You also should be aware that the last 2% of that level of exercise may amount to 50% of the cost. And it's futile to debate how necessary that last 2% is. Sportsmen who demand it aren't interested in "the law of diminishing returns", there's only one way to get the best.....demand it and pay for it. That's all they're interested in. I have an admiration for the artist, the art, and the guy who demands it and pays for it. I don't, but I don't live to their standards......and I doubt seriously they are concerned they don't live to mine.

My only observation is........Allen Day has had the worst luck with guns of almost anyone I know. I've been cranking out smoke poles of one description or another in the basement since I was 14. Not one of them has had the spectacular failures Allen has described on previous occasions. To my knowledge, almost all of them are still in use as much as 45 years later.

I've never had a complete gun built by someone else.....although I've certainly used the talents of several professional gunsmiths for different components. My experience with the profession doesn't yield the same indictment as Allen's.

Just a curiosity.

GV

GV

I think the problems that Allen Day or others might highlight does also depend on ones sensitivity to such problems.

We all judge an outcome differently and that will depend on both our personalities and circumstances.

An example could be assessing a projectile's performance. There are plenty of threads that unfold into a deep analysis of bullet performance because someone has posted up what happened with the deer they shot. But for an Australian where the volume of shooting is very high the judgement is different and one reason being that an individual animal has no importance over a weeks shooting.

But the bottom line is that a few people have more than one Echols rifle so they must of have seen value in them. Also, they are hardly a rifle to impress your friends with as the Legend looks very plain and 99.99% of shooters have never heard of an Echols rifle. From a distance of a few feet they will just look a like a standard M70 in a fibreglass stock.

I have a lot of communication with John S who Allen mentioned and I think John has just ordered his 5th Echols which is a 338 Win. By the time someone is ordering their 5th Echol's rifle that is a fairly strong story of support

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:

I think the problems that Allen Day or others might highlight does also depend on ones sensitivity to such problems.

I'm sure that's true, although a factory round having the bullet pinched out of the case by the lands....and misaligned scope mounts as bad as described.....might go beyond a "sensitivity" issue.

quote:

By the time someone is ordering their 5th Echol's rifle that is a fairly strong story of support.

Indeed. And the praise and loyalty is pretty uniform.

Good on 'em.........and Mr. Echols.

GV

Grandview, I don't know what to tell you other than the truth. I'm not making this stuff up, and I'm not going to candify rifle episodes or sweep them under the rug to give the industry as a whole a soft place to fall. There are a few gunsmiths on this board who'd love to shut me up on this stuff (not likely to happen), but I'm not the problem here -- they can thank those members of the profession who have sent out untested, flawed product that just wasn't up to par. I shoot this stuff, and I shoot and hunt a lot. I expect a rifle to work 100%, period.

The rifles I HAVE had good luck with and those gunmakers that I've done business who HAVE turned out great rifles that I've enjoyed for years -- guys like Glen Pearce, Mark Penrod, Tom Novotney, and D'Arcy Echols -- I haven't been a bit bashful about speaking highly of. So obviously my luck is hardly all bad, and it should also be clear that my experince has shown me that there IS a difference between good performance and bad. Not all of the players are real players, and not all of them are playing on an even field -- wishful thinking notwithstanding. It says in the Bible that "You shall know them by their works." That applies to riflemakers as well........

Grandview, if you've enjoyed a career that has produced trouble-free rifles and satisfied clients, you have my congratulations. Obviously, you are a craftsman who can get the job done. Not all of these cowboys are where you're at.

AD

I'm impressed that anyone could go 45 years without a problem with any rifle, factory or custom. Maybe I have bad luck too but I could write a book about all the assorted junk new rifles and bad gunsmithing I've experienced.

I have to agree and add that rifle function is increasingly important relative to what you actually do with your thunderstick. Where I live/work/hunt, you actually seldom need a rifle, BUT, when you do need it, you really NEED it!!!

For someone who hunts Whitetail in settled, suburban-rural areas, a rifle malfunction is not that big a deal as one can either have a spare hhandy at the cabin or car or hunt again another day. When you are alone, in roadless wilderness where Grizzlies are frequently encountered and you are backpacking everything for a several day hunt, the reliability factor becomes crucial.....and amateur monkey-wrenching of your rifle just don't cut it.

So, the cost of a top notch custom rifle becomes inconsequential as does the cost of top quality boots, pack, bino and camping/sleeping gear. One has to do this type of hunting to really see this, I guess.

Most all of the hunting I've done has been of the walk out the back door with my rifle type, which is pretty undemanding of the rifle. Even so malfunctions then are a nuisance and ruin your day. Most of the problems I've had have been on the few long trips I've taken. Horses, planes and boats will surely put your equipment to the test. Nothing lke a two piece rifle when you are thousands of miles from home to put you into a funk.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
... When you are alone, in roadless wilderness where Grizzlies are frequently encountered and you are backpacking everything for a several day hunt, the reliability factor becomes crucial....

Hey Kutenay, Let's say a young fellow was just graduating and getting ready to begin his first job. Before he begins paying off the Loans he wants to Hunt your area of the country for a Grizzly.

Is there any "factory" rifle made you would recommend to him?

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
...From reports I trust and one personal experience each, I wouldn't buy a sharpened Popsicle stick from Jarrett or Webernick, ...

Hey Kutenay, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone mention a bad thing about Mr. Jarrett's or Mr. Weberneck's rifles.

I'd sure appreciate it if you would let us know what the problems were "you experienced" and how well they both responded to correct the issues.

HC, hope things are going well at home and I have given your initial question some very serious thought as I consider it to be probably the most practical query on this thread. So, before I reply to it, I will simply say that I contacted both of the 'smiths mentioned concerning the rifles they advertised some years ago, with the intention of purchasing a rifle from each. In both instances, I was treated with rudeness and "talked down to" and my interest was obviously not important to these guys.

I also have first-hand reports concerning unacceptable workmanship from friends, but, they have not given me permission to post their names here and I am sure you understand that this means I cannot do so. These are people whom I trust, so, I would never buy from either of the two guys mentioned, period; do you own rifles by Jarrett and/or Webernick and, if so, how do yours perform?

As to the imaginary youngster on his first B.C. Grizzly hunt, this is a highly improbable scenario as B.C. hunting is very pricey and getting much more so. If, you are thinking non-res. alien hunter, this will be gone in a very short while, due to increasing resident pressure and current Aboriginal demands, pandered to by all levels of government, so, again, it is hypothetical in the extreme.

But, in such circumstances, I would recommend that your novice hunter find himself a used rifle in .30-06, get a good scope mounted and have it tuned by a good smith, perhaps Mark Penrod? I would install a McMillan synthetic stock, prefer Leupy scopes for value and toughness and would absolutely carry a spare identical scope, sighted in. I would use 200 gr. NPs, or NorthForks or TBBCs according to what my rifle shot best.

As to brands of rifles, it would be a Browning FN Safari grade-LE, an older Husqvarna on the same action which can be found quite cheaply or a P-64 Mod. 70, especially a FWT. I would change out the alloy BM and go with this as my main gun. If, I had to buy a new rifle, I would buy a CZ-550 in .30-06 and have exactly the same things done to it by the same guy.

I think that this is the most practical way to go as I consider most current factory rifles to be poorly made and not totally reliable. I would definitely choose a crf rifle for this although I would probably pick a Remmy 700, properly tuned, if I lived where longer shots and zero Grizzlies were the order of the day.

Another nice rifle for this is the old HVA, especially with the steel bottom metal and some tweaking plus a Brown Precision stock; they are very light and mine is a sub-moa shooter and again, they can be found for a "workin' man's price". Hope this answers your question as it is kind of long.

kutenay

I would bet on an HS Precision rifle or a Rem 700 with HS Precision magazine fitted to feed more reliably than ANY staggered feed CRF and doubly so if calibres have a bullet diameter not much smaller than chamber diameter eg 416 Rem, 458 Win, 458 Lott and especially if blunt or flat nose bullets are used.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
HC, hope things are going well at home

Thank you. It seems each day is different, some good and bad all mixed.

quote:

I have given your initial question some very serious thought as I consider it to be probably the most practical query on this thread. So, before I reply to it, I will simply say that I contacted both of the 'smiths mentioned concerning the rifles they advertised some years ago, with the intention of purchasing a rifle from each. In both instances, I was treated with rudeness and "talked down to" and my interest was obviously not important to these guys.

I understand completely. Two things irritate me, rudness and stupidity. I consider people "attempting to talk down to" other folks as falling in both rude and stupid. I'm not one to sit idly by and let it continue without calling the Fool who does it - a Fool.

During my youth, I was around a lot of people who thought they were somehow better than folks below our financial standing. I didn't like it then and still don't. I remember a particular fellow, Wayne, who's father bought him a 1967 396 Chevelle that began hammering on a younger fellow, Paul, who had scraped together his money by working all summer to buy a 1957 Ford and help with some of his families Bills. I'd worked along-side this young fellow and was able to purchase a 1962 Fuel Injected Corvette with the money I'd made.

We managed to get through everything with a lot of un-necessary stress and tension due to Wayne being a loud-mouthed blowhard-braggart, until we all met at a school party. I finally had it and took out Wayne and three of his brothers. They never made fun of Paul's car again that I was aware of. I did get tossed from the Party, but I do smile as I think back on it. As a side note, I see Wayne occasionally now and he no longer pulls that "talking down to" routine.

quote:

I also have first-hand reports concerning unacceptable workmanship from friends, but, they have not given me permission to post their names here and I am sure you understand that this means I cannot do so. These are people whom I trust, so, I would never buy from either of the two guys mentioned, period; do you own rifles by Jarrett and/or Webernick and, if so, how do yours perform?

No, I don't own any of their rifles either. Have talked to the Jarrett folks though and did not have the rudness problem you experienced.

Well..., when I called the Receptionist mentioned she had "just" killed a HUGE 8-pointer with a 280Ack. I tried my best to ignore her and went on with what I was interested in. But, she was persistant and mentioned it AGAIN! She got me to laughing because all I'd killed so far that year were culls and lots of Doe. I had seen a couple of Whoppers, but never had a shot that I felt comfortable taking. Nice lady.

quote:

As to the imaginary youngster on his first B.C. Grizzly hunt, this is a highly improbable scenario as B.C. hunting is very pricey and getting much more so. If, you are thinking non-res. alien hunter, this will be gone in a very short while, due to increasing resident pressure and current Aboriginal demands, pandered to by all levels of government, so, again, it is hypothetical in the extreme.

But, in such circumstances, I would recommend that your novice hunter find himself a used rifle in .30-06, get a good scope mounted and have it tuned by a good smith, perhaps Mark Penrod? I would install a McMillan synthetic stock, prefer Leupy scopes for value and toughness and would absolutely carry a spare identical scope, sighted in. I would use 200 gr. NPs, or NorthForks or TBBCs according to what my rifle shot best.

As to brands of rifles, it would be a Browning FN Safari grade-LE, an older Husqvarna on the same action which can be found quite cheaply or a P-64 Mod. 70, especially a FWT. I would change out the alloy BM and go with this as my main gun. If, I had to buy a new rifle, I would buy a CZ-550 in .30-06 and have exactly the same things done to it by the same guy.

I think that this is the most practical way to go as I consider most current factory rifles to be poorly made and not totally reliable. I would definitely choose a crf rifle for this although I would probably pick a Remmy 700, properly tuned, if I lived where longer shots and zero Grizzlies were the order of the day.

Another nice rifle for this is the old HVA, especially with the steel bottom metal and some tweaking plus a Brown Precision stock; they are very light and mine is a sub-moa shooter and again, they can be found for a "workin' man's price". Hope this answers your question as it is kind of long.

Yes indeed. That is the kind of post the youngsters need to read. I could just as easily have said Alaska if that would have made the trip more affordable.

Interesting you would select a 30-06. A grand old caliber.

quote:

find himself a used rifle in .30-06, get a good scope mounted and have it tuned by a good smith, perhaps Mark Penrod?

When you say tuned, what specifically would you recommend the youngster ask for in "tuning"?

What do you think the whole rig would cost, minus the scope?

J.C. Higgins Model 50 with Leupold M8-4X $75.00
Butler Creek synthetic stock.............$100.00
Foam insulation stuff to fill stock........$4.00
.75" groups from factory ammo..........Priceless

There is a story behind this rifle. The fellow I got it from could no longer handle the recoil of a 30-06 due to an accident that ruined his shoulder. It was all original, at least until I took a bad spill and broke the stock. I replaced it with the Butler Creek, filled all the hollows with expanding insulating foam, made my own steel buttplate from an old Springfield stock and took it out to shoot. With both Winchester 180 gr. Silvertips, Remington 180 gr. Core-locts, and two 180 gr. handloads of mine, all will do .75" or less when I do my part.
That rifle may be ugly as hell to look at, but it's beautiful to me and along with my Great-grandfather's old Model 94 30-30, it would be the last gun I will ever part with. I've had that rifle in it's original form and restcked after the fall since 1974, and it has never failed me.
Paul B.

Hey Paul B, Sounds like a really great old rifle with a nice history. Lots of folks in KY had JC Higgins rifles and Iver Johnson 22LR revolvers when I was young.

I really don't remember "many" of the old rifles from back then shooting as well as yours. Maybe part of it had to do with the ammo of those eras not being as good as what is made today.

Allen,

Thank you for your gratious offer. I appreciate it and it will not be taken underservingly.

I also value your contributions to this forum over the years on both cartridge and firearm/equipment selection as you've given me a different perspective to understand and consider.

Kut and others, thanks for your input on this.

Cheers,
CL

BTW, I will be out of action for a few days. Don't know why, maybe because you are all part of my extended "community", but I felt that I should share this with some of you - My Mother is recuperating in Hospital from a possible heart attack (Angiogram and other tests due back tomorrow) and I will be taking a few days off to enjoy with her and possibly be there for her should she need surgery.

quote:

BTW, I will be out of action for a few days. Don't know why, maybe because you are all part of my extended "community", but I felt that I should share this with some of you - My Mother is recuperating in Hospital from a possible heart attack (Angiogram and other tests due back tomorrow) and I will be taking a few days off to enjoy with her and possibly be there for her should she need surgery.

I will be praying for you and your Mom. Hope all turns out ok.

Paul B.

I have a JC Higgins in 270 that will punch 3/4 inch holes with most factory ammo. It shoots so well that I have never even handloaded for it. I just buy Federal Classic ammo for it. I use it for deer hunting sometimes, and that ammo works just fine. Those rifles are really surprising in regards to form and function.

I reread this entire thread again and I really think that the following statement best sums up what I agree with on the subject of Echol's rifles.

Echol's rifles were/are not really intended for novices or for those who are satisfied with whatever they may have; they are meant for those few people who want the functional best in a hunting rifle and think that the "Legend" fulfills that desire.

I do not condider myself a "novice", and I guess I would have to say I am pretty much satisfied with the rifles I presently have. I certainly am not jealous of those who are more fortunate than I am in both personal wealth and past experiences while hunting, as I enjoy hearing about their experiences a lot.

At age 61 plus I harbour no false illusions about what my future hunting experiences may be. Africa is pretty much out of the question and I really have little or no desire to go grizzly or brown bear hunting either. I am perfectly content to dream about hunting caribou and moose in Alaska and B.C., along with an occasional trip back to hunt with my Brother and friends for whitetail deer in Wisconsin. These along with what the north-western states offer for big game animals are plenty to satisfy my desires. With these simple wants and desires I really have to admit I already own all the rifles I need to enjoy the hunting I will do to the fullest. I also have to admit I probably don't have as much invested in my normal three or four "go to" rifles as one "Legend" rifle would cost me as my rifles tend to be simple, much as my expectations. I am very content with what I have, yet by the same token I don't expect anyone else to necessarily be as contented with them as I am.

With these thoughts I actually believe it would perhaps be foolish on my part to give up what I already have to buy a "Legend rifle", not because they aren't worth the sum of money they cost, simply they are not worth it to me for the hunting I do now and perhaps will in the future. Not being worth it to me however is a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT than saying they are not worth what they cost. As the statement says they are meant for those few people who want the functional best in a hunting rifle and think that the "Legend" fulfills that desire. I believe that to be a pretty true statement and the fact that enough people think that to keep them as sought after as they are pretty much proves it also. I am happy for those who can do enough hunting to justify owning such a quality firearm and hope they have many opportunities to use them in he future.

I agree with this, and that was the point of my making that comment. I just turned 59 and am not interested in Africa or any other exotic hunting locale; I could easily sell the rifles I now have and buy several "Legends" with the proceeds, but, I enjoy having all these and the few of them that I actively hunt withh will meet my needs for the next 20-30 years of hunting.

I am only interested in backpack and some horse hunting in B.C. and would like one trip in the N.W.T. and the Yukon, so, I will not order an Echols, either. BUT, that does not mean that I cannot appreciate what they are and consider them a very sound choice for the serious hunter; a lifetime investment, but, a wise one.

There is no way everyone could would or should own an Echols "Legend". We are all very much aware of that. I turn 29 on Friday, just started a family and recently graduated from University. I'm also fresh at the beginning of a career path. I've taken 10 yrs of student loan debt and ammortized them over 5. Leaving me a little strapped. However, I have a few dollars invested in Outstanding rifles, my favourite being a Bill Leeper Model 70, and will compliment it sooner than later with a "Legend". Ammortize that over a 40 yr hunting carreer and It seems like a darn good investment to me.

Chuck

Mike 378,

I don't think that the statement that a M700 or other pushfeed of whatever quality can out feed a staggered mag CRF is accurate. Although modified from as intended CRF actions will have trouble, it has been stated and can be easily shown that when the magazine box is configured as per Mauser formula for the cartridge to be used, rails and extractor appropriately setup then the CRF won't have feeding issues. a flawless feeding CRF rifle and a flawless feeding m700 the only difference becomes the extractor.

if you want to make the statement accurately you would have to say something like,"An HS Precision or m700 with HS precision magazine is more reliable than in INPROPERLY CONFIGURED CRF action with staggered magazine."

Red

Dago Red

A couple of points if I may

Firstly, the in line feed is more "controlled feed" than the CRF staggered feed (or any staggered feed) anf the CRF is starting from behind....a trade off for magazine capacity. Secondly the CRF is more dependent on ammunition dimension on the rim and extractor groove and of course ammuntion quality in that area.

Consider expensive sniper rifles sold to gov't such as the Prairie Gun Works.....in line push feeds with extended magazines. I think your FBI recently contracted %5 million of HS Precision rifles.

Nothing looks nicer than a CRF action feeding cartridges and nothing looks less appealing than an in line push feed working, but the in line push feed will always be in front.

You would never see a staggered feed CRF semi auto because the bolt would close too fast for the case rim to slip under the extractor at an angle.

PS. Would Mauser have used the same system if the calibre had been something like a 458 loaded with blunt or flat nose bullets?

Mike

If, you lived here in B.C. and hunted where genuinely dangerous bears are quite common and KNEW about Prairie Gun Works from hands-on experience, you might have a slightly different opinion.

kutenay

Just to go off topic for a moment, a friend of mine in Australia has an interest in getting a PGW, the action that is like a Rem 700, not the Timberwolf. Are they junk or unreliable people? He is tossing up between PGW and HS Precision.

Mike

PGW has a "checkered" reputation here, I would not even consider buying a rifle or anything else from them.