the recent posts on what the difference is between $x and $n etc. put me in mind to post this, was messing around and found

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976609638.htm

Gene is a friend of D'Arcy's, a very nice guy from the bit of time I chatted with him, and builds best quality rifles. Can't go wrong with this one. Damn that's a sweet hunting rig.

Red

I consider Gene Simillion, along with D'Arcy, David Miller & Curt Crum to be the best custom bolt action riflebuilders going today.

Anything Gene builds is superb, and it'll shoot. He's a real hard-core, experienced rifleman and hunter as well, and this rifle would appear to be a bargain........

AD

Crap!

Too bad I'm left handed!

The sako/lazzeroni TRGS in 7.21 firebird or 7.82 warbird

Very nice rifle. I see it's offered by Game Fair in Nashville. My experience with the owner, John Allen, is that his asking prices are somewhat negotiable.

It appears to be a pre-64, but not a pre-war.

I haven't received it yet, but I've ordered an HS Precision Light Sporter in .300 win mag and found the price to be very reasonable. I'll let you know the results. I'm also left-handed, which of course adds to the price.

For $4K, you could buy a NULA 22 rimfire and a matched CF, with around $400 left toward scopes and mounts. Having an "understudy" rifle that is a close match to your primary game rifle is an invaluable aid in becoming/remaining a good shooter.

Jeff

Nice Rifle But, You could build a very nice Rifle just as accurate or more so for far less money.

Reloader

Having a skilled person like Simillion make that is like having Michaelangelo Buonarrti run a rock crusher.

I see no value in it beyond a grand or so. Its a used gun with no warrantee.



The color of the stock is olive drab with a capitol D. The barrel is too heavy and long for a regular cartridge. I would not keep that gun at any price.

On the other hand this one looks interesting.



https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2.../210100992#210100992

what about wffheins trackerfor$1895.anybody have any experience?thanks

I agree with savage99 on this one. Spend half and get one that looks identical, if you like, with an accuracy guarantee and warranty, with custom touches that fit YOU. HS Precision is one, Match Grade Arms, and Rifles Inc for standard weights or ultralights, NULA for ultralights... the list goes on.

This isn't about what you see on the outside. All too often, rifles get applauded over cosmetics, when many such glitter babies are pretty atrocious functionally. And fiberglass beats wood any day of the week from the perspective of function.

Likewise, not all synthetic-stocked rifles are created equal by any means. What's great about this rifle is that the gunmaker is Gene Simillion. He puts way more into a rifle on the inside than you see on the outside, and when it comes to fit, finish, machining, function, and accuracy, Gene's work is as good as the very best. His work goes beyond accuracy off the bench.

With this rifle, you get all that Gene knows how to do to get his high-end rifles as close to perfect as possible functionally, plus the practicality and quality of a McMillan stock, and all at a price that's WAY less than Gene's wood-stocked rifles, and also less than if you hired Gene to build this exact-same 280 Rem, today. You talk about the best of all worlds...........

AD

Hell, I even like the color! How can you tell the rifle is too heavy from a picture?

Terry

I'll take this custom Richard Rifle Co. 270 Win. It sports a 24" Broughton-Richards bbl, Rimrock stock, custom paint by MG Arms in "3 shades of brown grass"

Factory trigger to unbelievable crisp 2#. Completely blueprinted.

And, every bullet I've put through it, even during the break in, has never produced a group larger than 1/2". And this is with random starting loads using Btips and SST's with VV powder.

140 Accubond with IMR4831 still less than 1/2". And yes, it's a leftie.





The rifle cost me $495 and I paid the smith $1800.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:


What's great about this rifle is that the gunmaker is Gene Simillion.

What's "great" about that, other than name dropping around the campfire, or at some "convention"?

My buddy is a "no name" 'smith, who values function, reliability, and accuracy a whole lot more than looks. Everything that he has built for me shoots sub-MOA, usually by a good bit...

And the price is nowhere near this rifle...

But then again, I can't go bragging that the best thing about my rifles is the name behind the builder. All I can do is show you how good they shoot...

(Well, that, and pocket a few grand in price difference...)

I think that it is probably a good thing that many people do not want to own/use an Echol's, Simillion, Miller & Crum, or Jerry Fisher/Tom Burgess rifle as these masters are far too busy as it is. I understand why someone might prefer a Ruger #1 to a Hagn falling block, a Seiko to a Rolex and a Pentax binocular to a Leica; it is the very same level of appreciation that makes many people prefer "Hip-Hop" to "Eine Kleine Nacht Musik" and everyone is entitled to their own choices.....that's democracy!

Of course, there are those whose taste has inspired great artists and artisans throughout history, Savage 99's example of Buonarroti being a well known case in point as the impeccable taste of the men in the Vatican made the Sistine Chapel possible. But, hey, theres always "etch-a-sketch"!!!!

Cold Bore, I don't know why you've let this discussion bother you, because it shouldn't. High-end wood-stocked rifles by various makers get flaunted around here by various parties all the time, and without a murmur. This isn't about name-dropping, it's about a riflesmith who is a known-quantity, and who has earned his reputation the old-fashioned way.

There's always somebody around who builds stuff "just as good but cheaper". That's the claim anyway...........


AD

I'm kind of w/ Coldbore on this one. I would NOT pay $4K for a plastic stocked rifle. The skill in putting one together just isn't there IMO. Any really good riflesmith can do one that shoots under MOA for about half, at least my guy can. No knock on the elite gunsmith-thing but really, $4K? Flame away, but I've seen too many guys spend big bucks on a rifle that looks kind of like, well, crap & shoots little better than a factory rig w/ some tuning. If it floats your canoe, go for it. Some guys like Hummers & BMWs, just not me.

I had no idea this would get so many people upset

I had an opportunity to meet Gene and talk to him a bit. It was the only time I have ever seen a stock blank that was priced over 250 and said "wow, if I had the money to spend I would consider that". it was a $1500 stick that was like God grew it special for a big bore project. that aside, he was friendly, helpful, and his new gun prices as Allen said, were higher than this.

Gene is up there with D'Arcy and I am sure does the same sort of thing, replaces the mag. box, does every metal wizard spell possible to make it as nuke proof as it can get.

whether or not somebody spends that much on a rifle is up to them, as is taste. Personally I don't care for the olive drab color myself and would pass on this rig as the chambering doesn't appeal to me.

My local smith that I went with for years and was told was good and used to think was good, they built guns for guides, law enforcement, prison guards. And still it was hit and miss. Price was always real reasonable, but looking back I got REASONABLE work, not great work. If you are fortunate enough to have somebody who really really does first rate work but doesn't charge the prices of the other top dogs then don't share their name and number and be very glad of it. Now I wouldn't even take my rifles to the local shop for a pad installation.

Red

Fred, you just don't get it. The average gunsmith who produces a fiberglass-stocked rifle maybe does a 50% job of blueprinting the receiver, then screws in a barrel, installs factory scopemounts, keeps the factory screws adjusts the factory trigger, beds to McMillan's rendition of a committee-designed factory-pattern stock, them maybe he shoots the rifle. If it shoots good off the bench, that's all that matters, and really, that's all he understands -- accuracy off a bench.

But is the receiver truly blueprinted? Is the magazine system a custom efforts that's made to hold a extra round and is carefully calculated for the correct stack angle of the cartridge the rifle is to be chambered for? Is the bottommetal of custom, milled-sttel construction, or has the potemetal factory unit been retained? Are the screws new, best-quality replacment parts? Is the scopemounting system (or at least the bases) built from scratch, specifically for that rifle, and the rings sized for the specific scope to be used, or just factory mounts installed with maybe the rings laped to unspecified dimensions? Etc. etc. etc. It's all in the quality of the components, and all in the little details. That's the difference that you're paying for. It goes way way beyond accuracy off the bench.

If that's all you require, you can buy a Browning A-Bolt or Savage right off the shelf and achieve that much..........

Sorry allen, I do get it, just not $4K worth. I think there is a bit of rifle "snobery" going on when guys talk about this rifle maker or that rifle maker, JMOFWIW. Really, why have custom bases made when there are so many good factory ones, custom screws, etc. If I am spending a bunch of money on a rifle, it needs to shoot well & look great!

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Sorry allen, I do get it, just not $4K worth. I think there is a bit of rifle "snobery" going on when guys talk about this rifle maker or that rifle maker, JMOFWIW. Really, why have custom bases made when there are so many good factory ones, custom screws, etc. If I am spending a bunch of money on a rifle, it needs to shoot well & look great!

Agreed. At some point it just becomes an exercise in doing things "just because I can" rather than because they need to be done.

I wouldn't make a blanket statement about whether this riflemaker is worth what he charges, because if enough people buy what he puts together then those people make it worth what the final bill is.

However, in this case I would have to see a lot more views of this rifle before saying it is worth the four grand the seller wants. As Forrest already said it does not appear to be a pre-war or even a transition model 70. The triggerguard and floorplate are not visible to see if they are original or aftermarket. The mounts do not appear custom to me and the rings are a shelf item from what I see. The stock is also not totally clear as to what it really is. A quick adding up of the parts a person can see would be well short of $1500 from my viewpoint and that leaves over $2500 in labor. I'm not saying it isn't there, but for my money I would have to see a lot more of this PARTICULAR rifle than I can right now to say that it is worth four grand.

I also know one pretty well known gunsmith who would put one together like this from all new parts, except the action of course, and it will work to perfection. I also think it would cost some less than $4000.00. That really is neither here nor there, one must be comfortable with a certain rifle builder to give anything a blanket vote of confidence as we have seen some do here. I need more than that however in this PARTICULAR case.

I don't think it is snobbery, although some might not want to spend the money it isn't about name dropping, not for everybody at least. The guys that want to drop names buy H&H, Rigby etc., names immediately identifiable. We here are all gun lovers right, how many of you have heard gene's name before? I hadn't till I met him. Outside of this website how many of us have heard the names Wiebe, Wisner, Olson and so on? I never heard any of these names before coming here. I don't think that in normal circles it is going to matter if any of us have one of these guys rifles and drop the name.

Some guys do buy the rifle for that reason, but I think these are the same guys that only buy factory ammo, leave the brass on the bench and have no idea what was done to that fancy custom rifle.

A 450 dollar rifle can never fail a person, shoot great and work forever, nothing knocking those either. Some guys like Corvette's, some porche, they do about the same thing most of the time.

I like porche's but drive an old ford!

Red

I grew up on a ranch, and then made my living Cowboying for the big boys after high school. I spent hours in the saddle and because of it researched and bought saddles costing several thousand dollars. These were hand built saddles with the finest of components yet were nothing special to look at. The seats were not padded yet they were properly ground and built to sit in. There was no silver, fancy engraving etc.

Invariably most days a gang of individuals would sneer at the few of us that rode such expensive rigs yet as the day wore on both the Jackass above and the Jackass below the “comparable saddle at a better price†would sore. But the next day would be the same story over again. Apparently the Jackass above had a short memory. Then I’d go home on the weekend to help on the ranch and get the same grief. Eventually some would try the saddle and recognize it work tough attributes. Now many of these guys ride custom rigs and praise themselves for such brilliant ideas and insightful thought.

There is also no glory in owning this type of equipment. This thread all but proves that.

Chuck

For that kind of hay I want to see some fancy wood and some very decorative and even functional checkering.

This may be a great shooting and functioning rifle but IMO it's about 300% overpriced.

The .280 is a nice touch but that is no hill to climb either.

Sorry.....nice gun but for much less than half that I can have fine shooter of equivalent function.

I've seen rifles with engraving jobs that cost more than I've ever spent on an entire rifle. I think that's crazy.

I've spent more money putting rings and bases on a rifle than other guys have spent on an entire rifle. Some smart people would say I'm crazy.

I don't care for plastic stocks. Other guys love them.

I don't particularly like fluer de lis checkering. Other guys love it.

Some guys love to hunt and have the means to hunt the world over and wouldn't dream of spending more than a grand on a rifle. Others collect guns and have little interest in hunting. I say more power to both groups if they find enjoyment in their hobby.

We're a fortunate bunch of gun nuts to live in a place (mostly) where we have options and choices that suit our individual tastes and preferences. If it takes custom made screws to satisfy your desires, then knock yourself out. If it doesn't, then consider yourself lucky.

Chuck,it also demonstrates that many people really have never used a rifle as a tool in the harshest conditions for weeks or months on end. I am NOT wealthy, but, after about 100 big game rifles in 40+ yrs., I recognize that top notch gear costs and, when you need it, the price really don't matter.

I often get hassled by "outdoorsmen" on Canadian forums, or used to, because I own a fair number of relatively pricey guns, packs, sleeping bags, binos, knives and other tools of both my former occupation and lifelong avocation. Those who do this are invariably individuals with minimal education, large pickup trucks, quads and very little experience in dealing with real wilderness, especially alone.

Simply because a Savage 110 will shoot tiny groups does not mean that it will work every single time when the conditions are horrible and your need for a rifle is critical. That is why the work by Simillion, etc. is worth the price charged, IMHO.

Forrest

You pretty well sumed it up in a nutshell. I couldn't agree more.

Many thanks

Red,

I am enthralled by excellent wood and metal work, done by top makers, for me this is the ultimate combination and expression of a custom gun.
Regardless of my taste, Allen is right, the master’s touch is inside, reliability, smoothness and accuracy is the signature of the very best, and Gene Simillion is one of them.

If you don’t mind composite, go for it – Gene Makes Only Top Quality Rifles.

Roland

The very thought that one needs someone else to work on their new gun to make it function is unique to to forums. Granted the thought existed before the internet in that some might have argued that a Rigby, H&H or other "best" gun was necessary for hunting. It's just that I used put it in the catagory of a nice finish and perhaps greater accuracy.

The guns that I have shot have been quite reliable with one exception and I find the rare opinion that all bolt action hunting rifles need a five grand work over the result of niche marketing and just a few trying to say that thiers is better than yours.

Short of the DGR hunters, I've never seen it expressed that factory guns need to be reworked to be reliable.

It has been stated that to get peak reliability, every factory rifle has a weekness or two that can be improved upon.

What I can't figure out is why folks feel the need to bash others who spend more money or have more work done on guns then they do. It strikes me as an extension of the hunter who has only hunted one species in his back 40 for 30 years, who thinks that knowledge trancends to every species hunted in all the various terrain they are hunted in.

Sufface to say, there is more to a hunting rifle then shooting a 3 shot group at 100 yds, just as there is more to hunting then sitting in a stand and popping a whitetail at 300 yds.

It's a big world and what, where and how we hunt may be very different than what, where and how you hunt. So too are the requirements we place on our equipment.

Dangerous game is just a sport. One can draw back some of the time. Now one can retreat in war also but it seems to me from a lifetime of experiance that my guns work in hard conditions and have stood the test of time and so have military guns right off of the production line.

So if you can't check out your stuff yourself hire someone. Thats a very good idea. Just don't try to convince others that they can't do it. Live with your limitations.

There is nothing wrong with someone having a gun checked out and if one has the monetary means but not the mechanical aptitude then to pay for it. This is what makes the word go around.

It was written by Ambrose that a principle reason for the rapid advance of the allies from Normandy was that the average GI could fix his stuff and the average Euro could not. This is where I stand. I can fix my own stuff and that's a satisfying combination to me.

Paul H. - Good post.

Whether or not you feel the subject rifle is worth the quoted price, I doubt Mr. Simillion made a "killing" on it. If he actually set that price, you can bet that enough hours were spent on it to justify the dollars. There may be some custom gunmakers getting rich, but they aren't numerous. Most are lucky to realize a decent hourly rate for the long hours they spend building a gun. The way some people scoff at the price of a handmade, best quality gun, you could get the idea that they believe the maker pulled the selling price out of his *ss and then doubled it for good measure!

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
I'll take this custom Richard Rifle Co. 270 Win. It sports a 24" Broughton-Richards bbl, Rimrock stock, custom paint by MG Arms in "3 shades of brown grass"

Factory trigger to unbelievable crisp 2#. Completely blueprinted.

And, every bullet I've put through it, even during the break in, has never produced a group larger than 1/2". And this is with random starting loads using Btips and SST's with VV powder.

140 Accubond with IMR4831 still less than 1/2". And yes, it's a leftie.





The rifle cost me $495 and I paid the smith $1800.

no wonder it was so cheap, it doesn't have a bolt.

I'd rather spend good money on a 100%-effort custom synthetic-stocked rifle than on a traditional custom rifle with a wood stock. In fact, I'm all done with wood, and I'll never have a custom walnut-stocked rifle built ever again.

I've been getting custom rifles built of all types for 25 years, and the best rifles I've owned are those with synthetic stocks that were built by riflemakers who placed a priority on accuracy and function over "tradition" and "pretty".

1930's production values don't mean anything to me anymore, I'm not easily bamboozled by cosmetics. Pretty is as pretty does, and I've owned and have been acquainted with all sorts of expensive, pretty custom rifles by well-known makers that were functional catastrophies. In fact, if anyone would bother to visit, I could bring forth sepcimens of this stripe that would be pronounced "magnificent", "wonderful", "beautiful", and all sorts of enthusiastic platitudes, and at the same time bring out fiberglass-stocked rifles that wouldn't bring forth any praise over cosmetic magnificence at all. Hardly a murmur. But load those same rifles into the truck, take 'em to the range and shoot 'em, or better yet, take 'em up on a rain-soaked elk mountain and then evalute were the real beauty and the real value lies.

Big difference..........

AD

quote:

But is the receiver truly blueprinted? Is the magazine system a custom efforts that's made to hold a extra round and is carefully calculated for the correct stack angle of the cartridge the rifle is to be chambered for? Is the bottommetal of custom, milled-sttel construction, or has the potemetal factory unit been retained? Are the screws new, best-quality replacment parts? Is the scopemounting system (or at least the bases) built from scratch, specifically for that rifle, and the rings sized for the specific scope to be used, or just factory mounts installed with maybe the rings laped to unspecified dimensions? Etc. etc. etc. It's all in the quality of the components, and all in the little details. That's the difference that you're paying for. It goes way way beyond accuracy off the bench.

So does the extra detail make the rifle more accurate?Does it cycle better?Is it more reliable?I will pay extra money if you can show me an actual performance advantage.If you can't,it just isn't worth the extra money to me or to most other people.I don't pay extra for names or reputation.

Just get yourself a Blaser R 93.

It's not so easy to sell a shiney "inside" is it?

On the other hand an attractive rifle pleases me and for the most part they work fine. It's true that a plastic stock is more durable than wood except maybe in extreme heat.

I hunt because I want to and a attractive gun adds to the enjoyment. Some live in a rainforest and we understand.

It's good that we have better and better compostite stocks and SS guns available. I welcome the option. As to best quality I would pay for a name and reputation. I favor Kimber over Mossburg for instance. Beyond that I enjoy sorting and tweaking off the rack guns. It's a major hobby of mine.

There was a high grade Sauer side by side 20 ga for sale here. It had many extras on it and it was for sale by the estate of a famous actor how lived nearby. One would think that this gun had spent thirty years riding in the back of a jeep where the dogs were! It was so trashed. The dealer said that to just send it to so and so here and for $1500 it would come back all refinished. What a shame.

I try to take care of my guns as best I can.

To each his own.



Some of ForrestB's choices above.

quote:

So does the extra detail make the rifle more accurate?Does it cycle better?Is it more reliable?I will pay extra money if you can show me an actual performance advantage.If you can't,it just isn't worth the extra money to me or to most other people.I don't pay extra for names or reputation.

Herein lies the crux and real issue of the matter. "Can you show me" really means "I'm too lazy to check for myself". Doesn't it?

quote:

In fact, if anyone would bother to visit, I could bring forth sepcimens of this stripe that would be pronounced "magnificent", "wonderful", "beautiful", and all sorts of enthusiastic platitudes, and at the same time bring out fiberglass-stocked rifles that wouldn't bring forth any praise over cosmetic magnificence at all. Hardly a murmur. But load those same rifles into the truck, take 'em to the range and shoot 'em, or better yet, take 'em up on a rain-soaked elk mountain and then evalute were the real beauty and the real value lies.

Here is a quote from someone who has owned hundreds of big game rifles from factory cheap to David Miller and literally everything in between. He's offering the very thing being asked for, but who's going to take up the offer. I suspect nobody.

Everyone seems to demand real life experience sans armchair speculation. Yet when its offered its often held with such disdain as to be considered kin to witchcraft. If you can't believe what is offered check it out yourself.

Oh, and where exactly do names and reputation stem from?

Chuck