This is a 1X fired case from my 7 Mag



This is a new piece of brass from the same bag. Just about .021 stretch.
This is why you measure and ONLY bump back a couple three thou.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:


Perhaps the problem is with the dies and not the chamber or the belt?

I returned the dies to RCBS and they checked out perfectly!

My trouble was with brass fired in one rifle; not multiple rifles. I have experienced the same trouble in three instances. I will use the .404 cases from now on for what I build and use. Just my personal decision.

God Bless, Louis

Okay, I'll start by saying I have not done nearly the loading that many of you have, probably most of you. (insert numerous excuses for not loading a shooting more here )

I have three belted mags currently, 264 win, 308 norma and 375 h&H. the belts have not caused any problems. Furthermore, the 308 norma was chambered by the same smith/shop with the same reamer as my stepfathers and his brothers. We use one set of dies. the rounds are interchangeable with all three. HOWEVER, loads do not necessarily cross. a load that doesn't show pressure in theirs shows a bit in mine. (they do like to load hot, I usually don't use their loads but back them down or go to heavier bullets as I don't like to be on the edge with the pressure all the time).

If you guys end up with two rifles that like the same load you're fortunate.

Oh, I did have one problem with one of these, the 264, but that was a tight neck, nothing to do with the belted case.

Red

I have been loading a 338WM for years... and a Marlin 450. I have never had any issue with then.

I just don't see the problem

I've been reloading rifle cases for over 40 years. Just started reloading belted cases (7mm Rem mag then .300 Wby mag) 10 years ago.

I've never had an issue with a belted case. I reload them just the same as I do non belted cases.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I've never had any trouble reloading belted magnums.

On the other hand, there is no reason for the belt to exist on a case that headspaces properly on the shoulder, except for one that has a gently sloping shoulder like the 300 and 375 H&H or with no shoulder like the 458 Win. Mag.

If my memory serves, the belt came into being just before the 375 H&H so that the new magnums with the gently sloping shoulders would have accurate headspace by using the front edge of the belt.

The reason for the gently sloping shoulder was because of the manufacturing process where the tubular shell casing was formed around the tied strands of cordite powder that were used at the time.

There is no physical reason to use a belt anymore, since older, 8x57 and newer designed cases, 416 Ruger for example headspace on the shoulder, and of course cordite is no longer used.

Personally, I find the belt on a properly headspaced 300 Win. Mag, or 338 Win. Mag, (two belted mags that I used to reload) to be annoying.

Its like a fin on a 1950's car, useless.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Ohhhhhh....but those 50's cars, specifically that 59' Caddy, gorgeous, fins weren't necessary but they sure looked good.

Red

quote:

On the other hand, there is no reason for the belt to exist on a case that headspaces properly on the shoulder, except for one that has a gently sloping shoulder like the 300 and 375 H&H or with no shoulder like the 458 Win. Mag.

And that's the total summation.

Forget the belt, size bottle necked cases off the shoulder and all will be well.

I have one belted magnum a M70 in 375 H&H.

Belted magnums are a bother and I do not wish them on anyone.

I had to buy the special belted magnum Wilson gage to figure out just how much to push the shoulder back. http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm. The standard advice of sizing to the shell holder plus a quarter turn was total fiction for my chamber. From what I understand because this thing headspaces on the rim, the distance from the base to the shoulder is not controlled or standardized in the chambers. I wonder how the die manufacturers figure it out since there is no standard for shoulder length.

As for the external rim, I have had those things interfere with each other in the magazine. I have had the bolt blocked from going forward because the front rim on the top round was blocked by the back rim on the next round. I had to drop the rifle, push down on the cartridge stack, and that cleared the interference.

I was only at the range, I cannot imagine using this rifle on dangerous game. Rim interference is just another failure mode that I don't need and I don't want.

So as I see it, belted magnums require a set aside sizing die set up for each individual rifle chambered in that caliber and the rims will jam your rifle.

And there are belted magnum fan boys?

Makes as much sense as being a drum brake fan boy.

As a follow up, Charles Newton had pretty much perfected case design before WW-I, and it took Ruger only 90 years to re-invent his designs.

Funny how the world works.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I have one belted magnum a M70 in 375 H&H.

Belted magnums are a bother and I do not wish them on anyone.

I had to buy the special belted magnum Wilson gage to figure out just how much to push the shoulder back. The standard advice of sizing to the shell holder plus a quarter turn was total fiction for my chamber. From what I understand because this thing headspaces on the rim, the distance from the base to the shoulder is not controlled or standardized in the chambers. I wonder how the die manufacturers figure it out since there is no standard for shoulder length.

As for the external rim, I have had those things interfere with each other in the magazine. I have had the bolt blocked from going forward because the front rim on the top round was blocked by the back rim on the next round. I had to drop the rifle, push down on the cartridge stack, and that cleared the interference.

I was only at the range, I cannot imagine using this rifle on dangerous game. Rim interference is just another failure mode that I don't need and I don't want.

So as I see it, belted magnums require a set aside sizing die set up for each individual rifle chambered in that caliber and the rims will jam your rifle.

And there are belted magnum fan boys?

Makes as much sense as being a drum brake fan boy.

You have to figure out how much to set the shoulder back? I don't think I've ever done that and done even own a Wilson gauge.

Like I said above, ya'll should change gun brands. My Blaser R 93 feeds 257 Weatherby, 300 Weatherby and 375 H&H Mag. cases slick as snot. I'm not a belted mag fan per se but I've had three 375 H&H Mags (still have two), and have had NO problems interchanging brass shot in them.

As for making sense; for most cartridges I would agree but the 300 and 375 H&H Mags need the belt and so do the straight walled mags unless you wish to go with a rim.

quote:

As for making sense; for most cartridges I would agree but the 300 and 375 H&H Mags need the belt and so do the straight walled mags unless you wish to go with a rim.

The 300 & 375 H&H will work just fine without the belt in a properly cut chamber

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I have one belted magnum a M70 in 375 H&H.

Belted magnums are a bother and I do not wish them on anyone.

I had to buy the special belted magnum Wilson gage to figure out just how much to push the shoulder back. http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm. The standard advice of sizing to the shell holder plus a quarter turn was total fiction for my chamber. From what I understand because this thing headspaces on the rim, the distance from the base to the shoulder is not controlled or standardized in the chambers. I wonder how the die manufacturers figure it out since there is no standard for shoulder length.

As for the external rim, I have had those things interfere with each other in the magazine. I have had the bolt blocked from going forward because the front rim on the top round was blocked by the back rim on the next round. I had to drop the rifle, push down on the cartridge stack, and that cleared the interference.

I was only at the range, I cannot imagine using this rifle on dangerous game. Rim interference is just another failure mode that I don't need and I don't want.

So as I see it, belted magnums require a set aside sizing die set up for each individual rifle chambered in that caliber and the rims will jam your rifle.

And there are belted magnum fan boys?

Makes as much sense as being a drum brake fan boy.

Hey slamfire, I reload for or have reloaded for 19 different rifles with belts (not rims, rims are part of the case head and it helps to call only those rims, as in a rimmed case like the 30-30). Of those there are 9 different 300 win mags. I use the same die for each and set the die the exact same way I set the die for a 30-06: after 3 or 4 firings the case gets a crush fit and I adjust the die to move the shoulder back .001". So you do not need a separate die for each rifle.

Never had a jam because of the belt in the magazine but I can see how it would be possible.

That being said, if given the choice on a case with or without a belt, I'll take one without. But it would not stop me from buying and using a 300 win mag if I didn't already have one.

Good Grief, some people just want to find something to bitch about. This is like complaining that a woman has two breasts since you can only use one at a time. Someone please start a thread on .270 vs. 7mm or something and lets argue over .007" again.

The .270

I sold both of mine in the last couple months after finding out they wouldn't kill anything.

quote:

Good Grief, some people just want to find something to bitch about.

Yup, they have nothing better to do.

I have no idea why a belted cartridge upset some people so much. Those people need to get over it!

quote:

You have to figure out how much to set the shoulder back? I don't think I've ever done that and done even own a Wilson gauge.

Proving the value of gages to those who don’t gage is difficult and frustrating. It is sort of like driving without an odometer. Yes, you can get by without gages, but without the ability to measure, you really don’t know what is going on and you cannot control the sizing process.

It used to be that 375 H&H cases were expensive. Maybe things have changed in twenty years and they are cheap. But I doubt that. When you push the shoulder back by .006” or so each reloading, case life becomes vanishingly short. I do not want case head separations and I want to use my expensive cases as long as possible.

I am curious to know how many reloads you get out of your belted mags. Have you ever had case head separations?

Belted magnums probably work just fine in single shot or double rifles. But rims are just trouble in a magazine rifle, regardless of the sophistication of the rim.

quote:

I am curious to know how many reloads you get out of your belted mags. Have you ever had case head separations?

Belted magnums probably work just fine in single shot or double rifles. But rims are just trouble in a magazine rifle, regardless of the sophistication of the rim.

I am curious, no fighting on my part. What are your perfect cartridges?

ive been loading belted mags for 30 years and have never seen any disadvantage to them. As a matter of fact i seem to get much better brass life out of 7mags and 300 mags then i do 308s or 06 family of brass.

I have 2 cartrighs without the belt. the
300 RUM and the 338 RUM

Other rifles I own have the belt and I have no problem with the belt.

Bottle neck cases, belted, rimmed or rimless are worked exactly the same. I'm no fan of "belted magnums" but have reloaded for several others who are. Seems many of us make it hard on ourselves by trying to do something different on the different cases.

How and where a chamber's 'headspace' is cut and measured concerns manufactors and gunsmiths, not reloaders. Making ammo that fits the finished chamber is our duty. If we set the shoulders of all bottle neck rounds so they barely fit we have done all we need to do or can do.


Slamfire: "I had to buy the special belted magnum Wilson gage to figure out just how much to push the shoulder back"

I think you're making it much more difficult than it is. Gages such as the RCBS Precision Case Mic or Hornady's Case Shoulder tools and a dial caliper are great comparitive tools and I enjoy using them but I've never felt a serious need for the gages. Before I got them I just use the individual's chamber and sized cases to fit 'em snuggly. The fact that I didn't know the shoulder change in thousanths doesn't mean it wasn't being done precisely!


"The standard advice of sizing to the shell holder plus a quarter turn was total fiction for my chamber."

The "standard" die setting advice was never intended to be a precise setting. No die maker can know exactly where my case or die shoulders are, nor can they know how much spring is in my press. Thus, the common 'instructions' are ONLY intended to put a newbie loader in the ball park that should work, and from which he must then tweek his size die for best chamber fit.


"I wonder how the die manufacturers figure it out since there is no standard for shoulder length."

Head-to-shoulder? There IS a "standard length" (or tolerance range) and it's quite precise, just as all other dimensions of chambers and cases are standardized with tolerances. Thus, the exact size of any chamber has been fixed by the maker so it is basically irrelivant to us, we only need to size our cases to closely fit what we actually have.

Since the belted ammo I've remade was not my own I'm not exactly sure how many times some of it's been fired. I feel safe saying some of it has been cycled at least a half dozen times (likely more) with no signs of an impending head seperation.

quote:

Originally posted by youngoutdoors:
Stonecreek, Wasn't talking about sizing the head; just the belt. They don't make a special die for sizing the head of rimless cases either because its not needed. But they do make a special die for sizing the belt because sometimes it is needed.

I think that rimless dies size further down the case than belted dies.

God Bless, Louis

youngoutdoors: I don't mean to offend, but you and others who seem to be making this argument simply don't understand cartridge brass and chambers. Please go back and reread Saeed's post about the sloppiness with which manufacturers chamber belted magnum chambers. If you'll think about this for a minute, you'll understand where your problem with belted cases arises -- with the chamber, not with the case. If a rimless chamber were equally sloppy, you would find that half the time the primer wouldn't even ignite due the the mismatch in headspace.

As to "sizing" the belt (or head, if you will), the only instance in which the belt "needs" sizing is one in which it has been expanded with excessive pressures. Not only will the belt be enlarged under such circumstance (and only under such circumstance) but the primer pocket will also be enlarged. In other words, once the belt expands, the case has had it and should be discarded.

As to the argument about "long, sloping shoulders", well, I load for a .300 H&H using a Lee Collet die. It headspaces quite nicely on the "long, sloping shoulder", thank you very much. For Pete's sake, if a .30 Carbine can headspace on its itty-bitty case mouth, it's no trick for a .300 H&H to headspace on its very much more pronounced shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
youngoutdoors: I don't mean to offend, but you and others who seem to be making this argument simply don't understand cartridge brass and chambers. Please go back and reread Saeed's post about the sloppiness with which manufacturers chamber belted magnum chambers. If you'll think about this for a minute, you'll understand where your problem with belted cases arises -- with the chamber, not with the case. If a rimless chamber were equally sloppy, you would find that half the time the primer wouldn't even ignite due the the mismatch in headspace.

As to "sizing" the belt (or head, if you will), the only instance in which the belt "needs" sizing is one in which it has been expanded with excessive pressures. Not only will the belt be enlarged under such circumstance (and only under such circumstance) but the primer pocket will also be enlarged. In other words, once the belt expands, the case has had it and should be discarded.

As to the argument about "long, sloping shoulders", well, I load for a .300 H&H using a Lee Collet die. It headspaces quite nicely on the "long, sloping shoulder", thank you very much. For Pete's sake, if a .30 Carbine can headspace on its itty-bitty case mouth, it's no trick for a .300 H&H to headspace on its very much more pronounced shoulder.

Stone creek is a savvy guy.....and again has hit the nail quite squarely.....Good post!

I feel like the old man who, after being asked did he sleep with his beard underneath or on top of the covers, never got another good nights sleep.
I've been reloading belted cases and shooting belted cases since some time in the sizties and until I read this thread, didn't know I was supposed to be having trouble.

Join the the crowd of surprised Belted re loaders , problems ?. Only an occasional mental lapse of remembering

to re set my Die correctly ,after removing it from the Press !.

However with skilled knowledgeable people such as Woods , that minor glitch was Ironed out quickly !.

Man I love this Forum ; Everybody has an opinion and experiences and we ALL LEARN from them !.

Is this a Great Country or What !!!.

http://www.larrywillis.com/338winmag.html

This guy makes a collet die. I have not used one but it seems to be intended to solve some of the problems with belted cases.

I thought the collet was to resize the belt to the .510" casehead

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Please go back and reread Saeed's post about the sloppiness with which manufacturers chamber belted magnum chambers. ...

I've never experienced a "Sloppy Belted Mag Chamber", nor do I personally know anyone who has. Also have never had, nor know anyone who has had a "Sloppy Non-Belted Case Chamber".

That does not mean I disbelieve anyone, just that it apparently is not real common - in either style. I like Belted Cases and use them a good bit.

If you happen to be a M70 user/lover, then having the rifle chambered for a Belted Case or a WSM Case provides a good bit more "eyeball" security for you, due to the excellent Case Designs.

Same here. Zero problems reloading any belted cases. I've been doing so for 40 years. I think some confuse lack of reloading skills with non existent problems attributed to belted cases.

As a friend of mine that has gone on to the happy hunting grounds use to say "All a belt is for is to hold up britches"
All kidding aside it makes no difference to me if a case is belted or non-belted. I never even consider it when making the choice between one cartridge or the other

quote:

It is as much a problem created by the brass manufacturers as the rifle manufacturers.

Exactly

quote:

I've been reloading belted cases and shooting belted cases since some time in the sizties and until I read this thread, didn't know I was supposed to be having trouble.

Isn't that the truth. It makes me wonder when a concept is designed, produced, and marketed sucessfully for an entire generation, then a half a century later people start having problems with it. And we still question the fact this nation is dumbing down? Bill T.

The guy holding this split 300 Win mag case didn't want anything to do with a belted case either, and he is a machinist. But like often happens when a hobby overlaps with what you do at work for 40+ hours a week, he screwed in his resizing die until it touched the press ram like the instructions said, and called it good.

I've only got a few years of belted case experience under my belt (pun intended) loading 338, 375 and 416 magnums. None have been any harder to deal with than cases with no belt. But I can sympathize with those folks having problems.

I went through the same thing with my R93 Blaser trigger. The overwhelming majority of R93 owners said theirs was the best trigger ever. Some went so far as to suggest my trigger finger needed education. Or that I was just fanning the flames of some other Blaser haters. Small consolation for me. But 2 trips back to the factory and a $125 new style trigger made things right.

Thank goodness we have so many choices in non-belted calibers to choose from; those folks who want nothing to do with belts can have their way.

I neck size only. What's a belt?