I have had a lot of different commercially produced cartridge/rifles and a few military variations and have found atributes in most of them that I liked, but I don't think I will ever own another rifle that shoots a case with a belt around it. It isn't that I don't like their ballistics or their proportions. I just don't like the aggrivation that usually comes with loading for them. Am I the only reloader/shooter that feels that way?
I have even considered wildcatting a couple of these calibers sans the belt but there are too many other options available to bother removing the stupid belts. At least Winchester had the good sense to leave the belt of their short and fat magnums.

Thats why I now own a 404J,8x68,9.3x62,338-06,45-70 and 6-223.

quote:

Don't want any more belted cases

I'm with you on this.....but it's hard to walk away from the .300 and .375 H&H!

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
I have had a lot of different commercially produced cartridge/rifles and a few military variations and have found atributes in most of them that I liked, but I don't think I will ever own another rifle that shoots a case with a belt around it. It isn't that I don't like their ballistics or their proportions. I just don't like the aggrivation that usually comes with loading for them. Am I the only reloader/shooter that feels that way?
I have even considered wildcatting a couple of these calibers sans the belt but there are too many other options available to bother removing the stupid belts. At least Winchester had the good sense to leave the belt of their short and fat magnums.

What aggravations are you referring to? You can load belted cases just like you load non-belted cases. A belted case is supposed to headspace at the shoulder, but you can load them just like any other cases as follows:

If the ammo is only going to be fired in one specific chamber, you can full-size, or neck-size the cases. Fired-once or twice cases can be neck sized, and the shoulder won't be stretched any further past that point when fired in the same chamber that fired it the first once or twice. As with all cases (belted or not), it's recommended that hunting ammo be full-sized.

That said, there are some belted cases that I will never stop using, and these include the following: .300WM, .338WM, .375 H&H, some of the .416's, and so forth.

Pray tell, what aggravation comes from loading belted cases? Help me. I'm ignorant about this as I've not been aggravated by any of them yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Pray tell, what aggravation comes from loading belted cases? Help me. I'm ignorant about this as I've not been aggravated by any of them yet.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Pray tell, what aggravation comes from loading belted cases? Help me. I'm ignorant about this as I've not been aggravated by any of them yet.

+2

I'm far from being any sort of reloading guru and I've had no issues with the belts.

Non Belted Magnum ??
Never had any problem's with a belted case.
They look much "Cooler" too !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Pray tell, what aggravation comes from loading belted cases? Help me. I'm ignorant about this as I've not been aggravated by any of them yet.

Hell +3 I ignore the belt.

I can tell no difference in loading a belted vs a non-belted case except maybe the belted cases usually use a lot more powder.

Please don't tell me what your problems are with the belted cases. I've been reloading them for over 40 years w/o a problem so I don't want to learn anything new.

I started reloading in the mid 1960s. Back in those days the belted case was written up as being easier to reload than the rimless case and because of the positive head spacing.

I think these days that many shooters form an opinion based on what they read as opposed to what they have done.

quote:

I think these days that many shooters form an opinion based on what they read as opposed to what they have done.

Wow, is that the quote of the year, or what????

I have no problems with my 338 win mag or my 375 H&H.

I guess I don't "get" the problem either?

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I think these days that many shooters form an opinion based on what they read as opposed to what they have done.

Wow, is that the quote of the year, or what????

That's a real good one. Agree with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I think these days that many shooters form an opinion based on what they read as opposed to what they have done.

Wow, is that the quote of the year, or what????

Should carve that one in a stone somewhere. Yep.

FWIW, as long as I only has one gun of a particular cartridge it was fine and everything worked well...reloading was a breeze....just like reloading a .270 Winchester!!!!

One day I found myself with two .257 weatherbys....one a purchased Mark V Weatherby....one a custom chambered Interarms Mark X.....and loe and behold the FL resized cases went back in the guns from which they were fired but would not interchange...(as they should have).

I returned the FL die to RCBS for inspection and they checked it and said it was of correct dimensions.....

I checked head space on both guns are they were both good by the gage!!!...It seemed the only possible answer was the variation of the distance from the front of the belt to the shoulder.....and that was built into the reamers and the die and not interchangeable.

Had the guns been non belted the fix was easy...

I considered putting the die in the lathe with a sharp carbide tool and moving the belt shoulder forward .010 and trim the base the same .010....this would have moved the shoulder of the case back a bit and the resized cases might have fit both guns equally......

Maybe others have never had this problem....I have.....and beltless means good things to me!

Again.....I have no problems with the belted cases I now have....let me find some wood to knock on!

I have seen 10 rounds of 300 win mag out of 40 of a Major producer of ammo that would not chamber because the belts were too long, once the length of the belts were shortened a couple of thousandths they chambered

Folks like Brenneke[9,3x64] and RWS[8x68s] saw the light, but most cartridge designers of the following decades got lazy and developed their modern magnums on the non essential belted feature case.

375ruger cylinder brass is available if you want to create your own beltless magnum.

I am with you Luckyducker!

I am done with the belted mags; I like the RUM cases alot better. Standard dies don't size the belt which grows a little with each shot fired. Most of the belted cases I've loaded wouldn't chamber after a couple of loadings. Yeah they may have been on the warm side. Eventually the case wont chamber or you have to get a die that sizes the belt. I had rather just shoot non-belted cases. No hassel whatsoever.

God Bless, Louis

Just send all your belted cases to me then you'll be able to move on to more important issues. I guarantee we'll both sleep much better because I Love those beautiful belts. ;-)

Newton had it right

The only belted case I've ever reloaded for is a .338 mag. and I've never had a problem with that chambering.
Bear in Fairbanks

I have reached the same conclusion about belted cases many years ago.

That is why we developed our own wildcats based on the 404 case.

We have, howver, many people who prefer to have a belted caliber. And the rifles we build for belted calibers tend to be much easier to load for than the factory offerings.

The problem with factory chambered belted calibers is that they tend to be a bit too generous in cutting their chambers, which tends to aggravate the reloading process, and almost precludes one using the same brass for different rifles.

We actually cut our chambers slightly short. To the extent that a GO gage would not chamber. W e thought we might have problems with factory ammo, but so far that has never happened in all the dozens of different calibers we have built.

I don't have much use for them, 300 & 375 H&H aside.
PO Ackley once told me that there were three ways to headspace a case properly.
1. rim
2. shoulder
3. belt

He then said "You only need one of the three.".

Rich

quote:

I just don't like the aggrivation that usually comes with loading for them.

Well, As others have already stated above ..... I've never had any issues (aggrevation) reloading the 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 300 Weatherby Magnum & 375 H&H Magnum; or any of the 19(? lost count at the moment & I'd have to walk down into the basement to confirm) rimless, rimmed & belted cartridges I reload either. All resize & chamber perfectly (knock on wood!). Got the itch (and an action, for a .416 Taylor at the moment, too).



but if you feel that strongly about belted cases - please do.

Have fun reloading.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

1. rim
2. shoulder
3. belt

I'll take what's behind door #2....ignore the belt

I don't understand the belt growing problem as that has never happened to me. I have the "special" die to resize the alleged bulge that occurs near the head of the case but I've never had to use it so it's apparently a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (at least for me).

And cases fired in one gun not champering in another??? Have you guys forgotten how to reload? If you want cases fired in one gun to chamber in another, try full length sizing them. I buy once fired cases cheap at every opportunity which have been fired in several different guns and have NEVER had this issue except when they're not full length sized.

I load for:

257 Weatherby Magnum
7mm Remington Magnum
300 Winchester Magnum
300 Weatherby Magnum
375 H&H Magnum
378 Weatherby Magnum
458 Lott

That experience is of course not exhaustive but suggests that loading for belted magnums isn't that problematic.

The belt, by the way, is a useful feature in my opinion. It's needed in long tapered cases like the 300 H&H & 375 H&H Magnums and it's what allows chambering of 375 H&H Magnum cartridges in a 375 Weatherby and 458 Win. Mag. cartridges in a 458 Lott chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I don't understand the belt growing problem as that has never happened to me. I have the "special" die to resize the alleged bulge that occurs near the head of the case but I've never had to use it so it's apparently a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (at least for me).

And cases fired in one gun not champering in another??? Have you guys forgotten how to reload? If you want cases fired in one gun to chamber in another, try full length sizing them. I buy once fired cases cheap at every opportunity which have been fired in several different guns and have NEVER had this issue except when they're not full length sized.

I load for:

257 Weatherby Magnum
7mm Remington Magnum
300 Winchester Magnum
300 Weatherby Magnum
375 H&H Magnum
378 Weatherby Magnum
458 Lott

That experience is of course not exhaustive but suggests that loading for belted magnums isn't that problematic.

The belt, by the way, is a useful feature in my opinion. It's needed in long tapered cases like the 300 H&H & 375 H&H Magnums and it's what allows chambering of 375 H&H Magnum cartridges in a 375 Weatherby and 458 Win. Mag. cartridges in a 458 Lott chamber.

Well, years ago there wasn't any problems with belts on cases. I imagine that later somebody wrote an article against the belt, or maybe somebody designed a belt-less case and complained about the belt in order to boost his design, and some people read the article and believed every word. In fact, some gun manufacturers would benefit from having people believing "how bad a belt can be," just to push its latest belt-less cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

The problem with factory chambered belted calibers is that they tend to be a bit too generous in cutting their chambers, which tends to aggravate the reloading process, and almost precludes one using the same brass for different rifles.

Precisely the problem I incurred!

I never had any problem with belted cases. I just ignore the belt and partial size to headspace on the shoulder, like a beltless case. Treated that way, my .300 Win Mag and .338 Win Mag cases last as long as any other case I load for.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

The problem with factory chambered belted calibers is that they tend to be a bit too generous in cutting their chambers, which tends to aggravate the reloading process, and almost precludes one using the same brass for different rifles.

Precisely the problem I incurred!

Perhaps the problem is with the dies and not the chamber or the belt?

I've used full length sized 375 H&H Mag. brass in multiple firearms with nary a problem. I've used range brass in a 300 Win. Mag. with no problem. I'm sure special situations arise from time to time but it's not the fault of the belt.

In fact, your quote from Saeed would corroborate that as he notes "factory belted calibers"..."tend to be too generous in cutting their chambers" so, he is saying it's the fault of the chamber and not of the belt.

What you folk having problems with belts should do, is get quality firearms with properly cut chambers like I have (i.e., a Blaser R 93 and Thompson/Center Encores) and your belt problems will evaporate.

A Cartridge is a Cartridge is a Cartridge . In particular a Brass case Boxer primed case which holds

smokeless powder . I've been reloading belted Magnums and near every other type of cartridges

for over 44 years an fail to see any problems in any of them . Some cases are easier to prep an load

straight wall pistol and rifle cases . God's honest truth , I've yet to have a head separation on any of

my belted cases and I'd venture to say I've loaded in excess of 10K 7mm Rem Mag cartridges alone !.

An I wouldn't even like to venture how many total cartridges that I've re loaded in those 44 years .

Wore out two sets of Dies and I have a few Rifles that are wearing their 4 Th. barrel !!!.

quote:

Standard dies don't size the belt which grows a little with each shot fired.

I've got news for you, friend: Standard dies don't size the head of rimless cases, either.

quote:

The problem with factory chambered belted calibers is that they tend to be a bit too generous in cutting their chambers

Saeed knows of which he speaks. The only problem that exists for belted cases is that manufacturers take a huge amount of license in cutting sloppy chambers since the presume that the fail-safe belt will keep a headspace problem from exhibiting itself.

You can understand, though not forgive, why manufacturers do this. They like to start with a chambering reamer that has absolute maximum dimensions. This way, it can cut more chambers before it is worn down below minimum dimensions. Also, they like to assure that ANY factory load will chamber, so they make their ammunition as close to minimum as possible and their chambers as close to maximum as possible.

The result is ill-informed handloaders who think that the belted cases are the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

1. rim
2. shoulder
3. belt

I'll take what's behind door #2....ignore the belt

There is a number 4: headspace on the mouth of the cartridge case. The .30 Carbine is one example.

Now regarding the exclusive use of "door #2", give that a try with the .458 Winchester Magnum or the .458 Lott. Also, using a datum line in the middle of the long sloping shoulder of the .300H&H would probably be unreliable and unwise.There must be several more examples of the usefulness of the belted case.

I have never had trouble reloading belted cases but I never loaded one caliber for use in different rifles. All my loading was for loads tailored to a particular rifle.

I own, reload, and shoot

7MM Rem Mag
300 Win Mag
30-338 Win Mag
338 Win Mag
375 H&H
416 Rem.
458 Lott

Never a problem with the belt. The 30-338 is a Mitchell Maxbury built rifle for 1000 yard highpower matches. It is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned. I can get at least 6 loadings out of the brass at max+ loads.

BTW one more way to headspace, off the extractor if you use a Model 70 or similar as in the 500 MDM cartridges.

Stonecreek, Wasn't talking about sizing the head; just the belt. They don't make a special die for sizing the head of rimless cases either because its not needed. But they do make a special die for sizing the belt because sometimes it is needed.

I think that rimless dies size further down the case than belted dies.

God Bless, Louis

"I think that some of you might be mistaking headspacing with shoulder bumping. Headspacing is done at chambering and with belted magnums is done on the belt."



Determine Correct Headspace ; from Brownells

With the exception of the .240 Weatherby Magnum, most belted, magnum cartridges are based on the .375 H&H Magnum case. Therefore, they all use the same headspace gauges. The following is a partial listing of those cartridges which use the same Belted Magnum Headspace Gauges: .257 Weatherby Mag., 6.5 Rem. Mag., .264 Win. Mag., .270 Weatherby Mag., 7mm Rem. Mag., 7mm Weatherby Mag., 7mm STW, .300 H&H Mag., .300 Weatherby Mag., .300 Win. Mag., .30-.338 Win. Mag., .308 Norma Mag., 8mm Rem., .338 Win. Mag., .340 Weatherby Mag., .350 Rem. Mag., .358 Norma Mag., .375 H&H Mag., .416 Rem. Mag., .458 Win. Mag.

MIXING AND MATCHING BRANDS OF HEADSPACE GAUGES - Don't do it!!

That's the short answer, here's why. It boils down to tolerance stacking. Each Headspace Gauge manufacturer works within a range specified by SAAMI. Manufacturer "A" may work at the high end of the range while Manufacturer "B's" gauges are in the middle of the tolerance range. Mixing the two could give an inaccurate reading. By sticking with one brand within a particular caliber, you will eliminate a variable. If you have a Forster, .308 GO gauge, get a Forster, .308 NO GO. Use Clymer with Clymer and Manson Precision with Manson Precision, etc. You can use any brand of headspace gauge with any other brand of chambering reamer. e.g. Forster Headspace Gauges with Clymer Reamers, Manson Precision Gauges with JGS Reamers, etc.

We re-loaders only need to concern ourselves to making our cases fit the chambers we have. I for one

don't mix cases of the same caliber with other Rifles of said caliber ( Chambers are Different ! )

I simply bump my shoulders back .002" an I've gotten better than #35 re-loads on particular brands of brass.

Without failures , I do anneal neck an shoulder after #7 firings MAX .


By jamming a case as far into an FL sizer die as you can and saying I made it meet SAAMI specs may be true

enough but it's also an over-resizing mistake ! An that removes much of what hand loading

potentially offers each of us ACCURACY ! . Measure the fired shoulder length and put it back

within .001"-.005" under when FL sizing and we've done the best we can do !. Don't forget necks also

need trimming once in awhile .

I spoke with Woods on the very subject of that Larry Willis collet die gadget and after an extensive

question answer debate , came to his conclusion ; An unnecessary gadget simply looking for a purpose

of existence IMHO . I've found no need for it in 44 years , So ...

Guys, I really do feel that way about the belted cases but I was really just throwing some gas on this forum so some/many would get the matches out! I have had a some belted magnums and usually they don't have issue with sizing and such but I had two 264Wins and one, a custom barrel, would stretch the brass and had to neck size only or the brass would sone seperate and the other rifle would not chamber any brass from first rifle even when FL sized to point of crushing the belt a little. Lets see, I had a 308NM, 7mmWBY, and helped a kid (daugher's BF) load for a 300Win. Calm done or you'll give yourselves ulcers for heavens sake.

Belted magnum cases do a lot of stretching before you can headspace off the shoulder. For example this extreme example of a Winchester 70 in 264 win mag



That is a fired case measurement of 4.129" and a new case measurement of 4.092", an expansion of .037". Now the headspace on the belt may have been .006" but the brass still pays the price on expansion at the shoulder because of the way the chamber is reamed in relation to the dimension the brass is manufactured.

And there is no sizing of the belt. The belt is part of the solid case head and can not be sized. The Innovative die that sizes belted magnum cases just sizes a little further down and a little smaller than a regular die for that belted magnum. I resize for a bunch of belted magnums and have never had the problem that the Innovative collet die solves.

IMO all dies size down far enough, the problem arises when you take a case that is shot in a chamber that is too large at the pressure ring and try to size it for another chamber that is smaller in the pressure ring area. Springback will mean that you will not be able to get the pressure ring sized small enough to fit in the smaller chambered rifle.

BTW, most of my belted magnums have a head clearance between .015" and .027". I did have another pre-64 Winchester 264 win mag that had .029", so the 264 win mags are the worst offender.

It is as much a problem created by the brass manufacturers as the rifle manufacturers.