Some simple facts:

300winchester
180NP,2990v/3573e...300yds:2230/1987
30/06
180XBT,2750/3022....300yd: 2264/2048

Less initial recoil, better down range ballistics,Superior penetration due to far less bullet desintegration.
Winner all round,without all the fuss

Put the crack pipe away...

Yeah, what are you smoking?
The 300 Win mag is good for 3160 FPS with 73 grns of IMR4831 and a Nosler Partition.

I did not post to put the 300mag down,I was just pointing out that what people have done in their 300mag/180NP for so long,can easily be achieved with the 06 with the right pill.
Why bother pushing the 180Np that fast(3160),when it aint up to the task as well as something like a 180NF would be.In fact I would even take the 165NF over the 180NP at that kind of speed.
Ok,you get 3160/180gn,people run the 06/180 faster than 2750 also, but I chose two reasonable velocity figures (2750,2990) for both cartridges,cause not everyones rifle will necessary achieve velocities that some out of the ordinary rifles can achieve.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
I did not post to put the 300mag down,I was just pointing out that what people have done in their 300mag/180NP for so long,can easily be achieved with the 06 with the right pill.
Why bother pushing the 180Np that fast(3160),when it aint up to the task as well as something like a 180NF would be.In fact I would even take the 165NF over the 180NP at that speed.

Woodjack
My apologies to you. I haven't a good reason for answering you that way. Although I was trying to be humerous, I obviously failed.
The '06 is a very fine cart.

It aint a problem, I know when a person posts here,they know not what the responces will be or exactly why.But there is always some good info that benefits us when the dust has settled.
At times,I do tend to title my posts in a way to provoke people into reading them. Its my fun outlet ,but I do try to make sense at the same time

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
Yeah, what are you smoking?
The 300 Win mag is good for 3160 FPS with 73 grns of IMR4831 and a Nosler Partition.

But have any of you taken a look at the difference of the trajectory between an 06 and a 300 mag, if you are strictly depending on it for longer range?

I don't think it is worth the recoil difference to the average shooter....

and as far as foot pounds go, the 300 mag needs premium bullets to withstand the difference of horsepower at close range, compared to a 06....

I am happy we all have choices, so that the 300 mags do exist.... that being said, I'd reach for the 06 almost all the time....

The one time I do reach for the 300 Mag with the intention of using it as a magnum should be, is when loaded with 220 grain bullets... handloaded hot....to between 2950 to 3000 fps...

I won't sell my 300 Mag, it just gets a lot dustier in the gun safe than the 30/06s do....

cheers
seafire

Actually the old 30-06 will toss a 180 grainer 2850 with ease.....handloaded that is.....and that closes the gap on the 300 mags to a very slim margin....(My loading manual for 300 win mag shows 3,000 as max)

The same can be said for a lot of calibers comparing their 30-06 cases to their magnum counterparts.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Actually the old 30-06 will toss a 180 grainer 2850 with ease.

I've never seen 2,850 except in bbl's at least 24" and most still won't get there safely. No way.

Most 300 WM's will comfortably give 3,050. That's 300 fps fater than the 06 (with the same bullet / apples-apples comparison). The extra velocity of the 300 WM is handy over 400 yards. Out to 400 yards I agree the 30-06 and 300 WM are basically equals. The added velocity of the 300 WM will be handy opening hard bullets (like the TSX) past 400 yards. I don't trust the 06 to open the TSX past approx 400-450 yards. Add another 100 yards plus to that for the 300 WM.

I think these sort of comparisons are silly. The 30-06 is a fine cartridge in its own right and can stand squarely on its own merits without some phony comparison game.

Put the TSX in the 300.

quote:

I've never seen 2,850 except in bbl's at least 24" and most still won't get there safely. No way.

and your 300 mag has a barrel less than 24"???

I'm chronographing 2,825 from a 30-06 with a 22" barrel.

I'm not saying the 300 isn't more.....just that it isn't substantially more.

The only reason my last 300 mag is still in the gun rack (it's a 300 H&H) is because it's a custom I made.....and I rarely if ever sell them.

Vapo, you've got one absolutely EXCPETIONALLY fast barrel... OR, you're just running a really hot load.

2,825 fps with a 22" bbl. is generally not doable.

I get a avg of about 200 fps differants from my 300 mag over my 06's.

It is up to each shooter to decide if the differants is enough to bother with.

I don't think I'll sell the 300 or the 06 I don't feel under or over gunned with one or the other.

Iam a firm beliver in enjoying the one you have in the hand at the time. Other wise I would sell all the rest and use just one.

I wonder what happens when we compare the same bullet, at the same pressure in both cartridges?

My guess is the 300 mag maintains about 300 fps over the '06. I don't mind if you say the '06 is good enough for everything in NA, and most other places, but make the comparison the same.

Keep in mind I currently have a BAR, HK SLB2000 and a Vanguard Deluxe in '06. I love them all and hunt with them. However the one 300 mag I have is always just a little bit more than the '06 when comparing the same pressure and bullet, and when you get into 200 gr. loads (as some people use) it's even better.

Some simple facts (actual hunting loads developed over 1000's of rounds downrange):

30-06 168 gr TSX, 2900mv/3137e....300yds 2358/2075.....500yd 41"drop/14" drift
300wm 168 gr TSX, 3350/4186....300yds 2753/2828....500yds 29"/14"

30-06 180gr TSX, 2800/3133....300yds 2339/2187....500 yds 42"/16"
300wm 180gr TSX, 3150/3965....300yds 2653/2813....500 yds 32"/13"

30-06 200gr Accubond, 2750/3358....300 yds 2321/2392....500 yds 43"/15"
300wm 200gr Accubond, 2950/3864....300yds 2502/2780....500yds 37"/14"

These are actual hunting loads chronied many times. To me that tells me that the 30-06 has an average across the board of 582 less energy at 300 yds, drops an average of 9" more at 500 yards and has an average of 3" more wind drift.

Nope, not gonna get rid of my 300 win mag.

That being said, the 30-06 is my favorite caliber although the 338 win mag is rapidly gaining.

Woodjack ----- Be sure to tell all the guys that have won 75% of the 1000 yard competitions in the last few years with the .300 Win mag that they need to change to the 30-06 that they used to shoot before they started winning. Also be sure to tell us what they said, when you told them to change. Good shooting.

My 300ultramags start the 180gr tsx out at 3380fps.The differences in trajectory and wind drift between the 30-06,300winmag and the 300ultramag at 500 yards is quite significant.I don't recommend the 300ultramag for most hunters,but it certainly is a significant step up ballistics wise.I certainly don't see myself stepping down to the 30-06.

I like both rounds alot, The one I carry depends on the application. The 300 with a 26" barrel (my choice) will outrun the 30-06 with a 22" barrel (again my choice) about 300 FPS which is significant. If you shorten the 300 barrel or lengthen the 06 barrel, the gap will get a little more narrow, but the gap still exists, & who cares, they both have their place. I set up my 300 Sendero for long shooting, but it is not too heavy for me to hunt Elk with & I have, but it is not the best black timber rifle. I converted my 30-06 Win. Featerwt. with a Brown Per. St. to a 30-06AI & it is a great rifle in my view. It is not a 300 mag. & it is not expected to be, but it will push a 180 to 2,900-2,950 in it's 22" tube, which is a good allround load & this enabled me to develope a long range load for my Sendero300, a 200 Accubond at about 3,000FPS, you can forget that in an 06, so it depends on your goals.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
....I think these sort of comparisons are silly. The 30-06 is a fine cartridge in its own right and can stand squarely on its own merits without some phony comparison game....

I dont see that it is phony or silly Brad.
For any person who may shoot a less recoiling 06 with more confidence/comfort resulting in better shot placement he is better off with the 06/180gnTsx,Xbt rather than the 300mag/180NP, cause terminal performance out to 300-400yd is no less with such 06 bullet combinations.So for the guy who finds 300mag annoying or is undecided what to buy, he can confidently go with the 06 without worry of drop in effectiveness in the field out to a very respectable range.I mean to say that the 180np/300mag has been toted for many years as a great doer in the field, but with more advanced bullets in ballistic shape and strength these days,there are smarter combinations that can be had, out of a std. case with less fuss and easily give the magnum effectiveness that we accepted as so good for so long.I dont see why there is a problem with that sort of enlightenment. But I do agree that the combination of 300magnums and pills such as the TSX,NF,FS,etc, do help you make the most of what both have too offer,should a person need it.
When I go to Africa it will be with a 9lb 26" barrel 30/06 4.5-14x40LR Leupold and 180gn/tsx,xbt,mrx,GSC, type bullet with complete confidence that it will do what the 180np-300mag would do,and why wouldnt it ,its travelling about the same speed as that 300mag load at 300yds and better beyond,and has a bullet that does not shed weight anywhere near as much.
The noslerP. is a dated design.Every other premium maker has gone to bonded cores for good reason and great effectiveness. Nosler tried to improve things with the Pt.Gold by increasing the proportion in the rear sectioon. It would have been smarter just to bond the front section of the normal NP or bond the front of the new Gold version.
Another thing that was designed to come apart in stages,was the rocket to the moon in the late 60s'.Bullets are not excatly as complex as rocket science,yet nosler persists in that design.

Some thought it was unfair to compare the 06-180barnes at 2750 and 300mag/180np at 2990,(even at that velocity the 300mag is behind the 06 figures at 300yds and beyond) but even if we up the Vel. of the 180np-300mag to 3050 or 3100, I would still take the 06 setup purely cause despite the 180np marginally greater or equal E/V
figures at those ranges(300-400yd) ,I dont believe it would offer any better final performance on game,due to the bullets weight loss characteristic.
Beyond that sort of distance(400yds) i would seriously consider GScustom type pills to get the most out of the 300 magnums, in the same way I look for superior pills in the 06 out to 400yds. cause pushing an average design pill faster and faster, just dont make sense, when there are specific bullets out there,designed to give you what you are looking for with less fuss,less frustration,more efficiency and superior terminal performance at those extended 300 magnum ranges.

Two words" WIND DRIFT.

I shot my '06 today at 600 yards, and I needed 6 MINUETS of windage. I have never dialed in more than 2 Mins. with my 300 mag (on similar days).

Yes, a ragefinder reduces the need for flat trajectory, but they haven't invented anything for wind!

quote:

For any person who may shoot a less recoiling 06 with more confidence/comfort resulting in better shot placement

Many of us shoot just as accurately with the magnum cartridges.I shot the groups below at 100 yards with my 300 ultramag,and I don't believe that a very high percentage of hunters are shooting better groups with their 30-06 hunting rifles with hunting loads.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d128/stubblejumper11/300ultramaggroups.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Vapo, you've got one absolutely EXCPETIONALLY fast barrel... OR, you're just running a really hot load.

2,825 fps with a 22" bbl. is generally not doable.

Uhhh, with H 4831 SC, try it, you might find out that it is not impossible... with safe pressures even...

I think the benefit of a 300 mag over a 30-06 is more pronounced with 200 grain bullets. Besides I can load a 300 mag to 30-06 velocities, but can't do the reverse.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Some simple facts:

300winchester
180NP,2990v/3573e...300yds:2230/1987
30/06
180XBT,2750/3022....300yd: 2264/2048

Less initial recoil, better down range ballistics,Superior penetration due to far less bullet desintegration.
Winner all round,without all the fuss

Oh well....

Swap your .300 win mag for a Holland & Holland mag

I say "throw away the 30-06." (I have 2 of them). Just got a 300 win mag. I can download it to do anything the '06 can do with approx the same recoil. I CANNOT GET THE '06 to do what the 300 win mag can do. Also, not all guns are accurate at their highest velocity. With the 300 I can download slightly for accuracy and be real happy with 2900-3000 for 180 grainers.
It always "strikes me funny bone" when people take a lesser caliber and say "push it to the max with a tsx" and you now have the next bigger caliber. WELL WHO'S GONNA STOP THE GUY WITH THE 300 WIN MAG FROM pushing a big load and calling it a 300 wby????

i have just about finished pressure testing all the commonly avaliable powders in the 06....
N 204, IMR4350,H4350,R 19 ,H4831,VV 560,WXR,
R 22,N MRP,N URP,IMR 4831....with the 180 gn nosler partition....as far as velocity goes NORMA MRP wins hands down, at a pressure of 62,000 psi you get a velocity of 2870 fps
R22 2850 at a similar pressure, WXR
in there to, and this is from a 24 inch pressure barrel
with the 200 gn noslers NORMA MRP again 2720 with a pressure of 62,000 , R 22 2700 at a PRESSURE OF 62-63,000
when you load up the 300 wm to the same pressure
there is a diffrence of 250-300 fps in favour of the 300 wm with both the 180 gn proj and 200 gn proj , that diffrence is signifiacnt especially at longer ranges
and those that get 2750 fps with the 200 gn accubond in the 06 you are first of all kidding your self ....pressures will be well obove 65,000psi .....the pressure gun does not lie
regards daniel

quote:

Originally posted by DougH9:
Two words" WIND DRIFT.

I shot my '06 today at 600 yards, and I needed 6 MINUETS of windage. I have never dialed in more than 2 Mins. with my 300 mag (on similar days).

Yes, a ragefinder reduces the need for flat trajectory, but they haven't invented anything for wind!

Doug, now I think you are the one with the crack pipe...there is no way an 06 drifts 3 times that of a .300 Mag in any flavor.

Take the same bullet and launch one 500 fps faster than the other. My example: 180 grain NBT, at 2800 and 3300 fps. The drift at 600 is 19 inches for the slower round, 15 inches for the faster one. Four inches of drift isn't evne one MOA (that was a ten mph wind). I went shooting at long range again today (third time in 5 days, out to 750 yards). I noticed very little difference between the .308 Win and the .300 RUM (I own three of them). In terms of drift, it is a difference of 100 yards at 700 (the .308 at 2600 fps drifts as much at 600 aas a 3300 fps RUM does at 700).

You want to shoot an '06 instead of a win mag?
Do it and be happy.

You want to shoot a win mag instead of an '06?
Do it and be happy.

Both options are obviously not worth arguing about.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Some simple facts:

300winchester
180NP,2990v/3573e...300yds:2230/1987
30/06
180XBT,2750/3022....300yd: 2264/2048

Less initial recoil, better down range ballistics,Superior penetration due to far less bullet desintegration.
Winner all round,without all the fuss

Why don't you level the field and use the ballistics WITH THE SAME BULLET!

woods racer,
I suppose you missingng the point of what Im saying in my posts. It was not about cartridge criticism,but more about careful bullet sellection regardless of the case size.
I can get better down range performance with the 06 with good bullet selection that eclipses what people get with the 180np in their 300mag. we can do the comparison anyway you like...
We get better down range performance with the 308NM with smart bullet selection,than what could get with the 300weath if we didnt apply wiser bullet selection, or 300weath better than 300 ultramag etc,
As I said ,just running an average bullet design faster and faster just dont make sense,when there are smarter combinations out there regardless of case size. Not everybody needs an ultramag to get what they want down range,there are other ways. I personally would prefer a smarter bullet out of a 308NM than something of lesser design out of an ultramag that actually offers no better down range performance...likewise I prefer a smarter bullet out of the 06 than a lesser one out of the 300winmag.
I intensionally chose different bullets in the 06/300mag comparo to show that good/superior bullet design can and does make a difference....and that if a person did find his 300mag uncomfortable and effecting his shooting but was happy with the performance of his NP pills, then he could confidently go to an 06 with a different pill, and get no less performance (in fact sometimes better)at the ranges and game the 300mag/180np was good for.

quote:

I personally would prefer a smarter bullet out of a 308NM that something of lesser design and benefit lesser out of an Ultramag...likewise i prefer asmarter bullet out of the 06 than a lesser one out of the 300winmag.

I prefer a smarter bullet out of the 300ultramag.

quote:

Some simple facts:

300winchester
180NP,2990v/3573e...300yds:2230/1987
30/06
180XBT,2750/3022....300yd: 2264/2048

Less initial recoil, better down range ballistics,Superior penetration due to far less bullet desintegration.

Well this is what you said originally. And the point everyone else is making is that using the same bullet, let's say you like the 180 XBT, the 300 Win is always going to have less drop and less wind drift. Why should anyone get rid of it for long range shooting?

If I want less recoil then I can drag out the 270 Win, 275 Rigby, 300 Savage, 308 Win, or the good old '06. But if I want the best down range ballistics (only in the hunting rounds menitoned) I would bring the 300 Win. I'm happy to admit you can have too much of a good thing, RUM's and Weatherby Mags come to mind for me, but a 300 Win is really a mid-range 30 these days. For me, if I need more than a 300 Win I move up to the 338 or 458.

My real reason for liking the 30-06 over the 300 magnums is purely a factor of gun and not cartridge.

I've argued that the performance differences are not large and the Featherweight rifle in the 30-06 is a rifle I far prefer to carry than the heavier 300 mag rifles I've owned. Further I am not happy at all with the 26" barrels I had on the M-70 rifles I had in 300 mag but the 22" barrel on the featherweight is far easier for me to be happy with.....it's all about the rifle.....not at all the cartridge and again.....the performance differences are really not significant.

There's no such thing as deader!!!!!!

Browning Guy, you asked why anyone should get rid of their 300winMag for longrange shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by myself:

... if a person did find his 300mag uncomfortable and effecting his shooting,but was happy with the performance of his NP pills, then he could confidently go to an 06 with a different 180gn pill, and get no less performance(in fact sometimes better) at the ranges and game the 300mag/180np was good for.

I would rather have a 180tsx@2750 than a 180NP@2990-3100 ,cause it will match or outclass anything the 180Np will do ballistically or animal wise at 400yds and would still be a better pill up close on big game than that faster moving/substantially faster disintergrating 180np.

300-400yds is longrange for alot of people.
If I needed more than that I would seriously consider something like 308Nm160GscHv, or even better still, a GSc200gnHV .338winMag.
That 338/HV combo will seriously allround outdo high,low, near or far, any Ultra300mag/ 200gn accubond and yes,less recoil...despite what some people say on this forum, recoil is an issue with a lot of people.
I could have easily titled the post" sell your 300ultra and get the 300win"(and put superior designed bullets in it) if the 300win was your comfortable recoil threashold round, then it would apply to you.

Bottom line is,I am saying that it can be good for some to Find their threshhold cartridge and spend money on the best bullets to give the most that cartridge can offer you,especially if the recoil of a larger case with inferior bullet detracts from your ability to accurately and confidently shoot the thing and at the same time offering no better downrange figures or performance.

I'll admit I have sold my .300 Mag and 9.3mms because of arthritis, and down sized to the .30-06. Having said that, Long Live IMR 4350 and H4831sc!!! I have not seen a case where in I needed that 300 yard 3000 fps load yet, and I do shoot better with the 06 than I ever did with the .300 Mag, even if that Mag could do half inch groups all day. Sometimes I get the impression that certain shooters just have to have that extra bit of velocity to feel secure in their shooting. Right or wrong, it may be as much psychological as physical, the choice between the .300 Mag and the "ancient" .30-06. Whatever .308 cal you use, please, as a minimum use Nosler bullets, 180 grain +, Accubonds or Partitions.
LLS

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Vapo, you've got one absolutely EXCPETIONALLY fast barrel... OR, you're just running a really hot load.

2,825 fps with a 22" bbl. is generally not doable.

Uhhh, with H 4831 SC, try it, you might find out that it is not impossible... with safe pressures even...

yes and I'm doing it with H-414 and it can also be done with RL22..Brad...it's really that good!!!! Try it !!!

VapoDog,

your getting the same kind of success with your 06/180gn that Atkinson states he was getting with his long throated 7x57 and H414...yes, with safe pressures.
IF Iremember well,he said he had his 160gn pills hovering up to around 2900.
I have no reason to doubt it, an old hornady manual(1980?)Shows 2800fps with the 160gn-H414 or H450? in 7x57,without long throat and a 22" barrel.

I don't think there's any question that these performances in the 30-06 are over SAAMI spec but one must understand that the SAAMI specs for the 30-06 are considerably less than the .270 and 25-06 and one can load to 63,000 PSI just the same as those cartridges.

I've never considered any cartridge to be a true step up from a previous cartridges performance unless it's velocity was at least 10% greater and the 300 win mag is not that over the 30-06.

Furthermore it's easily argued that the use of premium bullets allows one to shoot the one level lighter bullets with equal performance characteristics.....or in other words one can shoot the 30-06 180 to about the same velocity as the 300 mag with 200 grain bullets and if one buys into this logic then the 30-06 is roughly equivalent to the former magnum performance.

No question...the 300 mag is more.....bur insignificantly so.....I still like the shorter and lighter rifle.

Shoot what ever ya want.....makes no difference to me at all.....I, of course, will do the same.

woody---you are not comparing apples and apples.what you must do is throw away the barnes and insert a nosler for the 06 to make an honest comparason.

In the case of magnums, less is better...excess power is not necessary to kill animals or fun on the shoulder.

By the same token, I have a motorcycle that is faster than my airplane and a 320 horse power 1949 CJ2A...why?...because they are fun!!