I see this time and again in magazines that the 35 whelen is a brush cartridge. 30/30's ,35 remington and 45/70 are what I call brush cartridges. Are they good for long range work? Not really, mid ranges? Yeah in my opinion they are, by they I mean 35 whelen,338-06,8X57 and the like. With the heaviest of bullets maybe so. But with light to midrange weights these calibers will at least duplicate 30-06 trajectories (180 gr.). What do you guy's think? Does it have to travel over 3000 fps to shoot over a hundred yards with? Is the 308 win. a brush cartridge?

when i think brush or woods cart i think of a cart that can put an animal down with one shot without chasing it too far and because you will most likely only get one shot and the ability to shoot big mean teeth and clawed animals and put them to sleep if they put you on the menue...the 45-70 fills that bill nicely as well as the whelen/9,3x62. the 30-30 is a deer gun not a woods gun imho.

so with me it is not so much range but put down power and portability

being able to shoot through brush ie twigs, leaves and branches is not a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by raybass:
I see this time and again in magazines that the 35 whelen is a brush cartridge. ...

If those folks actually "shot one" then the story would be different. Granted they do not shoot as flat as the Belted Mags and RUMs, but they shoot plenty flat for 300yd shots.

Of course, you can put a whole lot of "Brush" inbetween you and 300yds.

I get 2600 with a published load in my Whelen.
(The powder is RL-15) The BC of the bullet is very good, at .446. zeroed at 200 you are about 2 inches high at 100 and 9 inches low at 300. I don't put that much stock in book trajectories, but it gives you a place to start.
If you are shooting at an elk you should be well within the vital zone with no or very little hold over at 300 yards.
the popular 225 grain tripple shock can be fired at 2700 fps. With the same 200 yard zero the trajectory flatens out about an inch at 300.
Certainly not a brush cartridge only.
Hell i hand load for my marlin 45/70 and would shoot an elk at 200 yards anytime.
remember a 16 inch kill zone on an elk is aprety forgiving size target.
those who want a really long range rifle might want somthing else but 300 yards is plenty long for most of us.
...tj3006

Just ask those pundits to stand at 350 yards while you shoot at them with that "short range cartridge".......

The Whelen is not a 1,000 yard p-dog cartridge, but has plenty of what it takes to shoot elk at reasonable ranges (i.e. within the ability of 95% of hunters). JMO, Dutch.

quote:

35 Whelen a brush cartridge?

In my Magna-ported Rem 7600 with round nose Core-lokt bullets, yes. And I don't feel like an orphan in the least!

To me a brush cartridge entails more than just the cartridge.

Think of what type of firearm you would want in thick brushy cover.

A quick handling firearm. Open sights (peep is my preference) or a low power scope. The rifle needs to come up and point naturally.

Any cartridge will work, but a bigger diameter cartridge will have better effect. Bigger diameter kills better IMO. Bigger hole, heavier bullet will usually leave two holes and a better blood trail in my experience. Nice for thick cover.

For me, I think of pump, bolt, lever or semi auto, single shot. In that order.

So my personal preference for a dedicated brush gun would be a pump in a minimum of 338 caliber.

Second choice would be a quick handling bolt, because I have so much experience with them.

Third would be a lever which is a great choice but I just don't have the trigger time with them.

Never been a semi auto or single shot afficionado.

So If I was to buy a factory rifle.
These are personal preferences based on what I have experience with.
1. Remington pump in Whelen.
2. SA bolt in
a. 350 Remington Magnum
b. 358 Winchester
c. or 338 Federal.
3. Lever
a. 444 Marlin
b. 35 rem
c. 45-70.
d. Maybe even one of the big new pistols cartridges like 460 or 500. Gotta love the diameter.

I have never been sure what the US hunters call a bush round, something that shoots through brush is what if used to be, and if it was a fast handling carbine that went unsaid..

The only round I have ever seen that could "dependably" shoot through brush almost every time is a solid from a big bore like a .416 or better...The rest is hype.

Boom Stick, what is that nasty looking thing on your avatar?

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Boom Stick, what is that nasty looking thing on your avatar? Terry

That Fred Thompson trying to raise campain funds at a Star Trek Convention. roger

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/272109286

you have not been following this thread i see...

it is a man eating giant rabbit

I am with Boom Stick and Atkinson. I don't like the term "brush cartridge" as people get the notion you can actually shoot thru brush. To me "Brush gun" meens light fast handling and a round that will either put the game down fast or leave a good blood trail.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacobite:
I am with Boom Stick and Atkinson. I don't like the term "brush cartridge" as people get the notion you can actually shoot thru brush. To me "Brush gun" meens light fast handling and a round that will either put the game down fast or leave a good blood trail.

That sounds pretty much like my Ruger M77, 22"Shilen barrel, 35 Whelen, 250 gr Woodleighs

I think it's a dumb term myself actually, used in all kinds of ways. If anything in my mind it is better applied to rifles that are shorter and clean of things to get hung-up on moving through brush/heavy cover, as opposed to the cartridges.
I would suppose you could call any heavier bullet used a brush cartridge by some interpretations..?

Dumb or not it is a brush cartridge and more. roger

The 35 whelen is my FAVORITE big game round. I have a Remington 7600 in the whelen & a custom mauser. The pump action remington is my "nasty conditions" gun that I use for bear hunting in heavy cover or whitetail hunting when I need to get a shot off quickly. I use 250 grain round nose Hornadys for everthing when using my 7600.....it has proven to be the "bang/flop" king. Like a magic wand it goes off & bears or deer just drop where they stand. Here is one I took on public land here in PA. I shot him from about 75 yards as he faced me....peaking around a bush .....I hit him head on & he litterally flipped over backwards....4 feet in the air ....just twitching a bit before he died. I found the bulet in a perfect mushroom shape lodged in the hide in the back of the bucks upper hind qtr.

Nice buck!

I think Remington's adoption originally of a 250gr RN perpetuated the myth that this cartridge is "just a brush cartridge". It's better than that as many here have proven. Seems interesting that whilst the 35Whelen is a sometimes described as a "brush" cartridge the 338Federal is considered something more.
Cheers...
Con

I'm hardly an expert but I agree with those who dislike the term "brush gun". I'm always in the brush so to me any gun I have in my hands at the time is my "brush gun". I got my best northern Minnesota whitetail in the bowels of an endless willow swamp. I was supposed to be "driving" deer to the other guys when I got to playing footsie with this giant buck. I was young and tough at the time and when he would move I would move-I was also shooting a lot of rabbits at the time with a scope sighted .22. So when the buck popped his head and neck into a small window at about 20 yards it was second nature for me to quickly put the cross hairs on the only viable target I had-the base of his skull from behind. The .243 I had in my hands was very similar to my .22 rabbit gun and the buck dropped instantly. Since then I am convinced the best "brush gun" is a scope sighted .243. Course, there ain't nothing wrong with a .35 Whelen either, and with it you could take an elk at 200 yards or more.

Iron Buck,

Call it a brush gun or not, when something works as well as your snapshot shows, you stick with it. Congrats on the big 4.

1 nice 8 point buck, 2 shot on public gamelands, 3 a Remington pump gun, and 4, the 35 Whelen. That's what big game hunting in Pennsylvania is all about.

Good rig too, if you ever draw one of our elk tags.

With heavy for caliber bullets these cartridges are short range affairs,like 310 gr bullets, I think that puts it more in the low end stopping caliber range IMHO. Even with light for caliber bullets they are not long range calibers(400+),but under that they should get the job done. My brother just picked up a donor action for his brush cartridge(338-06).

The term "brush cartridge" is a misnomer and somewhat misleading.

For what its worth......
I have read tests where the authors have shot through waffle boards and found that high velocity cartridges with spitzer bullets performed better than any cartridge that had been described as a "brush gun" regardless of that guns bullet choice, ie. round nose.

What makes a BRUSH GUN?

The simple answer...some patience and a scope!

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
The term "brush cartridge" is a misnomer and somewhat misleading.

For what its worth......
I have read tests where the authors have shot through waffle boards and found that high velocity cartridges with spitzer bullets performed better than any cartridge that had been described as a "brush gun" regardless of that guns bullet choice, ie. round nose.

What makes a BRUSH GUN?

The simple answer...some patience and a scope!

I will add to that. I was shooting once where we had a groundhog shaped gong set at 200 yards. About 20 yards or so in front of it was a small sapling that we had not cleared out. I decided to shoot thru the sapling to see how I would do. This was with my AR15 shooting fmj bullets and as long as I centered the sapling I hit the gong. Only if I just nicked the sapling did I miss. I still would never try this when shooting at game.

One of the big advantages of the higher velocity cartridges with flatter trajectories is the ability to mitigate range estimation errors by zeroing the rifle such that the bullet trajectory will be within a couple inches high or low of PoA over the 'primary shooting range', say out to 300 yards for example. However, if you know the trajectory of your round and can manage a decent estimate of the range then you can 'hold over' an appropriate amount and still make a longer range shot with a slower heavier bullet.

quote:

What makes a BRUSH GUN?

I have heard this quite abit even where I live and can only suggest that it means that what ever you use must be able to be pointed thru some bushes. I have asked my wife this "do you have a brush gun" she said "my .30-30". That settles it.

The great thing about the 35 Wheklen for reloaders is that it can be a good just about anything gun. Very versitle.

Shooting through brush is foolish as any bullet can be deflected !! I scope my 45-70 to find openings in brush .My shots are usually 50 yds. For comparison : 35 Rem -150 yds, 358-225 yds, 35 Whelan -300 yds.