I never even heard of it till I saw it here some time ago. I got interested in it and read a lot about it. Looks like a very outstanding deer thumper and more. If I had seen one before I bought my 7mm08 it would be my favorite rifle I think. I may have to find a place here somewhere for one of them some day.
Why did it never catch on?

It was a cartridge ahead of it's time and hit the shelfs during the start of the magnum craze. Also, in the US the 35s have never caught on. IT is a nifty caliber, very efficient and arguably the ideal black bear round. I had an old style (tang safety) Ruger M-77 that I unfortunately sold. Great round and it has a cult like following. jorge

I read it was first chambered in a Mod 70 in 1955 so maybe I can find one and join the cult. It just looks like a perfect Southeast caliber but I can see where the high speed mags pushed it aside. Those high speed mags aren't worth much for deer hunting exept to fuel egos I guess.
I don't know about you but I am about burned out on the safety thread.

358-284

Interesting point on the efficiency of the 358. On an end season herd reduction hunt I put my 72 year old father in law in a stand and told him to harvest as many antler less deer as he could or wanted to. He had his 358 savage 99 with 200 silver tips. put him out after lunch and when we picked him up at dark the had seven deer piled up. All one shot kills. None of them took more than one or to steps.

I did a little search on Guns America and did not turn any Mod 70s in 358 but a few BLRs.

Ruger has the new Hawkeye in 358 Win

I think Ruger is also making there compact scout in a 358. I wish they made it left handed I know they would sell at least one. Great round, one of the best uses for the 308 case.

Ed

I have an old 358 Mod 70 and mentioned to a guy at a gun show I had it. The $%^&SOB called me a liar so I went home and got it. Brought it back, showed it to him and he said he`d give me 1500.00 for it. I told him where he could put it. Although I never shoot it anymore I wouldn`t sell it to him for any amount. The old 70 are getting scarce. I build 4-6 every year so there is still a lot of "thinking" huntersout there.
Aloha, Mark

i really dont care for any of the 51mm variants above a 30 caliber.
it seems to me that to shoot the heavy bullets that would make sense you have to have an overly long magazine well or an intermediate action to begin with.
i just cant see the reason to shoot a 200 grain 338 bullet over a 180 gr 30 caliber or a 175 .284.
but of course if the factory loaded a 250 it would have the trajectory of a bowling ball and wouldnt sell.
being a consumer based world i'd say the reason the 358 isnt more common is because people didnt buy it. and why didint they buy is? because there was no real advantage over a 308.
does that mean it wont work? no it'll kill deer all day long. so will a 375 winchester but you dont see people lining up to buy those either.

I am looking at it as a new project when I get tired of tinkering with what I have now. Choices are to buy one, rebarrel one of my short actions. One of which has the .473 bolt face and the other has a .534 which would be a better 350Mag candidate.
Nice to have options when loading and shooting to never get bored. My spare 7mm08 shoots extremely well so most would not mess with it. I just added a fluted firing pin and the next mod is a HS precision stock. Maybe a Jewell trigger after that and then on to another project. Antoher barrel for that one would be good since I also switch out to a 22-250 barrel at times.

I have an old BLR in .358. It clocks 200 grain factory ammo at about 2500 fps, and will shoot just under one inch with factory ammo. I plan to reload some 200 grain Hornaday spire points when I run out of factory ammo. I had a model 99-358 (which is not the earlier .358) that also clocked about 2500 fps, so it is not just my BLR. It didn't shoot very well (2 inch was about the best). I foolishly sold it in one of my frequent stupid periods.

I also have a .308, and a 7mm-08, so all I need is a 338 federal, a 260 remington, and a .243.

The .358 thumps out of all proportion to its size. I am getting it ready as my buddy saw over 20 hogs in one group on his ranch this week.

Looks like a bad weekend for the hogs. I am going to do a little hog shooting in mid May in south Ga.

I'm in the process of building a 358Win on a 24/47 Mauser action. I'm stoked!

Send us a pic when the project is done.

I would sooner have a 358 Win than any of the new WSM cartridges.My next project is to get a 358 Win built on a Ruger MK11 CRF action with a barrel of about 22 inches.I may pick up a Remington 660 in .308 Win and have it rebarreled to 358 Win and have a very good little bear thumper and close range moose gun.

I have an old Browning BLR in .358 Win. It's one of my favorite brush guns here in The rainy thick woods of Washington. It shoots 5 shot 1" groups all day long if I do my part. It thumps beyond its diminuative size, balances and carries well. I use the old Winchester 250 grain silver tips ahead of IMR4064.

Gotta Love It !!!

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
i really dont care for any of the 51mm variants above a 30 caliber.
it seems to me that to shoot the heavy bullets that would make sense you have to have an overly long magazine well or an intermediate action to begin with.
i just cant see the reason to shoot a 200 grain 338 bullet over a 180 gr 30 caliber or a 175 .284.
but of course if the factory loaded a 250 it would have the trajectory of a bowling ball and wouldnt sell.
being a consumer based world i'd say the reason the 358 isnt more common is because people didnt buy it. and why didint they buy is? because there was no real advantage over a 308.
does that mean it wont work? no it'll kill deer all day long. so will a 375 winchester but you dont see people lining up to buy those either.

Horsecrap! If you haven't tried one, don't knock it. The .358 Win. is not the short range brush gun many "egg_spurts" in the gun rags say it is. I damn well would not stand out at 300 yards and let anyone shoot a 250 gr. bullet at me from a .358. I've knocked down enough pig silhouttes with mine at 300 meter and it sends them flying, and yes, that's with a 250 gr. bullet.
Personally, I would hunt anywhere in North or South America with any of the five .358 Win. rifles I now own.
Yup. The round really is that good. Early on, Jack O'Connor called it a brush load and felt it kicked a bit too hard to suit him. Everybody knows old Cactus Jack didn't like recoil. They do kick a little bit with a 250 gr. bullet, but it's not all that bad. Well, the onus stuck.
I would dearly love to find one of those Pre-64 Featherweights in .358. Many were returned to the factory and made into .243s and .308s because that metal buttplate hurt just a little bit. You'll have to pay a vrey pretty penny to snag one of those unless you are very very lucky, in which case you'd also best be playing the lottery.
Paul B.

For 358 skeptics, read this link:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

Now, funny how a 250 gr in a heavy 45 colt, 44 special or magnum is the cat's pj's, at 1100-1300 or so fps, but at 2400 is inadequate.....hogwash, it's very potent, just a loopier trajectory than a good 225, it is still a thumper when it hits. A LOT of momentum.

I can tell you, no animal fairly hit to 300 yds will turn its nose up at this combo. They will however turn all 4 hooves up!

That was a very eye opeing write up on the little 358 Win. Not so little after reading the story.

The. 358 is magical. It just simply works! If you have never owned/used one, you wouldn't understand. Lou

AFter reading the Alaska thread about the bear that went down with a 44 revolver, it makes a Browning lever gun in 458 Win look like a real thumper.

Just for a little historical background, here's a nice article about the .358 Winchester's "granddaddy":

The 9x57 Mauser
http://www.african-hunter.com/9x57_mauser.htm

"Other factory ammunition was loaded somewhat hotter, particularly the German DWM sporting ammunition, which offered a 247-grain bullet at an alleged 2310 feet per second."

Those ballistics seem familiar....

"Popularity even spread across the Atlantic to America, where Winchester chambered the model 54 bolt-actioned rifles for it and most of the major ammunition companies loaded 9mm Mauser ammunition."

Kind of makes you wonder about where Winchester got the idea for the .358 Winchester.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Hey I guess politics benefit from propaganda, good or bad, just as cartridges get 'niched' short range round, mid range, all around, or just a useless round, by how it is hyped in the trade magazines write ups and articles.

Even the recent 338 federal had an author say it is a good round for 'under 200 yards.'

Now if that author truly believes it is no good to 300, and only effective to 200, we need to veto him out! He has his head in the sand and I would expect it to not come out by itself!

Yes, the old moderate cases with mid bores and good loads in bolt guns are effective, heavy convential bullets WHACK game, penetrate, shoving bone, hide, muscle, etc, out of their paths out the other side of many animals, as witnessed by my ex, now buddy's 350 with 225's.

It is equal of the Whelen in the Ruger, and it leaves a nice exit hole, not unlike, if not bigger than magnums, yet w/o the blood shot meat.

I like both 338 and 358 on the 308 case. They are not long range if you consider 300 yds short range. But, many shots are taken as many know within that distance and many shooters don't have the experience nor business taking further shots in field conditions with any rifle, and I speak of your standard hunters who lack range time, or any real time shooting to get good at a distance.

I guess the industry based on that article on the 338F I referred to is alread 'niching' the 338F for closer shots, perhaps they fear loss of sales of 'the newest whizbang light speed magnum!' chambered rifles and ammo......

Bob

Now I really have to brush the dust off the 9x57 dies.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
Just for a little historical background, here's a nice article about the .358 Winchester's "granddaddy":

The 9x57 Mauser
http://www.african-hunter.com/9x57_mauser.htm

"Other factory ammunition was loaded somewhat hotter, particularly the German DWM sporting ammunition, which offered a 247-grain bullet at an alleged 2310 feet per second."

Those ballistics seem familiar....

"Popularity even spread across the Atlantic to America, where Winchester chambered the model 54 bolt-actioned rifles for it and most of the major ammunition companies loaded 9mm Mauser ammunition."

Kind of makes you wonder about where Winchester got the idea for the .358 Winchester.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by richj:
Bob

Now I really have to brush the dust off the 9x57 dies.

Rich

Funny how this breaks down:

.358 Winchester - 51 mm case length
9x57 Mauser - 57 mm case length
.35 Whelen - 63 mm case length

Looks like Mauser was right in the middle before the .35 Whelen or the .358 winchester ever came along. I've always thought the 9x57 was a neat cartridge though I've never owned one. I have thought about getting a .358 Winchester as sort of a "poor man's 9x57". But, I've also got a .35 Whelen so it would be a little redundant. Still, I think the .358 Win is a neat cartridge.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Nothing to knock on the 9x57, for my knowledge do they typically safely use 358 dia slugs?

Just based on what I've read about it, I think the nominal bullet diameter for the 9x57 was .356 inches. There does seem to be some variability in that spec, though. I've seen various sources list it at .354" to .357".

The article on the 9x57 Mauser I referred to above has this to say:

"The correct bullet diametre is .356", whereas American bullets are .358". However, American bullets can be swaged down (or put on a centreless grinder) and thus made to work. Before doing this, I would slug the bore of my particular rifle to find out the exact groove measurement, as a lot of these older rifles can vary considerably in their bore dimensions. You may well find that .358" bullets can be used as is. You may equally find that further reduction is necessary, however!"

If I was going to have a new 9x57 made, I'd spec it out for .358" bullets.

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
Just based on what I've read about it, I think the nominal bullet diameter for the 9x57 was .356 inches. There does seem to be some variability in that spec, though. I've seen various sources list it at .354" to .357".

The article on the 9x57 Mauser I referred to above has this to say:

"The correct bullet diametre is .356", whereas American bullets are .358". However, American bullets can be swaged down (or put on a centreless grinder) and thus made to work. Before doing this, I would slug the bore of my particular rifle to find out the exact groove measurement, as a lot of these older rifles can vary considerably in their bore dimensions. You may well find that .358" bullets can be used as is. You may equally find that further reduction is necessary, however!"

If I was going to have a new 9x57 made, I'd spec it out for .358" bullets.

-Bob F.

I would too, but if I had one of the old rifles at hand, I would not worry in the least about using .358 bullets, of ANY weight.

I never ceases to amaze me how little some of the "experts" must have in the way of genuine experience....or knowledge of everyday mechanics.

Over the years I have owned perhaps a dozen or more original Mauser sporters in 9x57. I have used .358" bullets with perfect satisfaction in all of them.

As any of the same "experts" will likely agree, when shooting any hand-load in any rifle, one really should begin with a low powder charge and "work" the load up. (I think it is that word "work" that scares many of them.) By working the load up, that means "trying out" different charges, different primers, different bullets, etc., until one gets something that performs well and satisfies them, while being very safe.

So, why don't they understand that with an APPROPRIATE primer, case, and powder charge it is absolutely possible to work up safe, satisfactory loads with jacketed bullets from one to three thousandths OVER OR UNDER the bore diameter?

Sure, one should use the same size bullets as bore groove diameter, IF one can get them. But don't obsess about it. One can make something suitable and quite good for hunting with bullets which aren't a perfect fit until sized down or bumped up by firing.

(Was not criticizing YOU Mr.Faucett. Was reacting to the "words of wisdom" of the quoted "expert".)

I use two 358 Winchesters and a 9.3X57 in this caliber range. They are all similar except with the .366. The common bullet weight is 285 for the 9.3 or .366. There is another problem with the 358 WCF in the rifling twist rate. It looks to me to be optimum at 1 turn in 12". If most were 1/12s then the 275gr might be the typical bullet for the 358 WCF. My opinion here and worth what you paid for it. Packy

I bought a new 358 this year its a browning blr the lightweight 81 with the straight stock i topped it with a leupold 1.5x5x20 with the german #4 recticle. I wanted a light rig for deer and bear in the northeast. (and it will handle moose with no problem) It has a 20" barrel and weights in at 7 pounds. Ruger now has the frontier model 77 with a 16 1/2" and the all weather hawkeye 77 with a 22"

How do you like shooting the BLR? I have looked at them on line but haven't had the opportunity to hold one or shoot it. What are the range details?

So perhaps there is a 9x57, .356 spec'd, though known by some to handle .002 over, and then a .366, 9.3mm x 57......is what I am hearing. I am ltd in scope on these rounds but it is nice to learn about things......

At the SHOT show this year, I handled a NEW BLR that has a lever under the forearm, it's barrel slides out to break down and it's accuracy is said to be very 'repeatable' as tolerances are very tight. Something to keep in mind. Nothing but great reports on BLR's, usually doing under or right at MOA.

And on the above post, if building any 35 cal, it would be 12 also for me. I believe that is what Ruger currently does in 358 and 350. I like carbines, and a 'frontier' would be ok, handle great as the youth models, but the barrels would be harsh on my ears, would prefer 19-21" bbls if given choice and better velocity.

Dwight i just love the BLR i am sorry i didn't buy one years ago . Its not only a great shooter but i have never seen a smoother working lever action . I bought it for a few reasons , first i was looking for a light rifle to carry all day long , second i have begun a love for the 35 calibers and third i just love lever actions. Last year i bought my first 35 it was a 35 Whelen but i sold it to my brother , i loved the caliber and its accuracy but the rem. model 750 was just not comfortable enough for me to carry and i just couldn't shake the jamming fear from my head . My brother loves semi's so he took it off my hands. If your looking for a great lever action , i highly reccommend the blr and they come in calibers from 243 to 300 winchester mag.

THanks,
I will have to look for one locally to see what they feel like. Happy owners sell better than ads.

They also have a pistol grip model for those who dont like the straight stock check out brownings website for a good picture of the BLR

Dwight

You are not going to find any M70 feather-weights in .358win as they were not produced in large numbers and even if you did it would cost several thousand probably. Winchester primarily chambered it in the M88 lever action rifle but they are rare also.

If you want a really nice .358win look to the Ruger Hawkeye, it has the proper 1/12" twist, 22" barrel, is stainless with a sythetic stock. If you dont reload i wouldnt bother with it as there is only one factory load for it unless you go to a custom loader like Connolly.

I just love it when people like KStevens give advice about cartridges they have no idea about! The .358win is effective up to 250 to 300yds and its small case capacity doesnt effect this round at all. Its probably the most efficient cartridge based on the .308 case, and will kill moose sized critters with ease.

I would say that this round would be a little potent for smaller sized deer but hey dead is dead. It would make a great hog round as well as black bear. I have a BLR 81' light-weight with a Leupold 2.5X ultra-light scope mounted and it shoots 1" to 1-1/4" groups all day long.

Load a 225gr TSX in a 358 and it would be the ultimate big game combo, easily capable of taking elk, moose, pigs, bear, as well as a host of African plains game. Its probably the most under rated round ever developed, what a shame.......

Like I said I shoot two different .358 WCFs. One 99 Savage and a Lone Eagle pistol. They are one shot stoppers on game no larger than white tails. I have no experience with larger game but plan on piggies next year. Maybe Argentina after that. I find that for MYSELF, Africa is out of my budget. I can't afford the trophy fees and shipping costs to get the trophies back to the US. The .358 will be fine. I have the 1/12 twist and some WFN hard cast waiting to be used. Not to mention the 275 gr RN Hornady pills to be used on pigs and larger. Maybe the water buffalo and hogs in Argentina. Good shootin whatever you decide. Just make sure you get the guns with the 1/12 twist. Packrattusnongratus

Thanks for the 1/12 twist tip in the event I have one built rather than buy a BLR or Ruger.
I have been loading for over 30 yrs so my rifles never see factory ammo. When I pick one up I will have to stash about 500 rounds of brass.
I like the idea of the 225 TSX since I really starting liking the TSX performance in my 7mm08.
A lot of people argue against short action calibers but one thought always stays in my mind is that Bell did some serious killing in Africa with the 7x57.

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Like I said I shoot two different .358 WCFs. One 99 Savage and a Lone Eagle pistol. They are one shot stoppers on game no larger than white tails. I have no experience with larger game but plan on piggies next year. Maybe Argentina after that. I find that for MYSELF, Africa is out of my budget. I can't afford the trophy fees and shipping costs to get the trophies back to the US. The .358 will be fine. I have the 1/12 twist and some WFN hard cast waiting to be used. Not to mention the 275 gr RN Hornady pills to be used on pigs and larger. Maybe the water buffalo and hogs in Argentina. Good shootin whatever you decide. Just make sure you get the guns with the 1/12 twist. Packrattusnongratus

Might need the .275 gr. bullets for the buffalo, but any of the 250s should work just fine on hogs.
Paul B.