For some reason American hunters have just never taken much to .35 caliber hunting rifles, except for the .35 Remington. Too bad, because both the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen are outstanding cartridges, and perform above just the short-range, brush gun category. for example the .358 will drive a 250-grain spitzer over 2400 FPS, which will give a trajectory as good as the .308 Winchester, with a bullet only 50 grains and 100 FPS shy of the heavy load in the great .375 H&H Magnum......

"Thanks for the 1/12 twist tip in the event I have one built rather than buy a BLR or Ruger."

Dwight. I believe the BLR has a 1 in 12" twist. I would check that out to be sure, but my early BLR has that twist rate. At least Browning and Savage did it right concerning twist rate.
Anyway, check and be sure.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
I never even heard of it till I saw it here some time ago. I got interested in it and read a lot about it. Looks like a very outstanding deer thumper and more. If I had seen one before I bought my 7mm08 it would be my favorite rifle I think. I may have to find a place here somewhere for one of them some day.
Why did it never catch on?

The .358 Win. is one of my all time favorites. Very efficient cartridge. I always liked it better than the Whelen and have chambered about a dozen rifles for customers over the years & they all loved them. They were all very accurate and loved to be cranked up as hot as the shooter wanted them.

Ask Jeffeoso about the .358 Winchester. Packy

Mine has a Shilen 22†1 in 14†twist ss barrel on a Mark ll action in a bedded and floated Ruger factory stock. It has had some good smithing done on its 3lb trigger and also wears New England back-up sights. It is currently scoped with a new Sll 3x9 Sightron, which is held in place by Warren QRs. It shoots Speer’s .220 gr bullets being pushed by a near max load of W-748 like a house afire. CP.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
For some reason American hunters have just never taken much to .35 caliber hunting rifles, except for the .35 Remington. Too bad, because both the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen are outstanding cartridges, and perform above just the short-range, brush gun category. for example the .358 will drive a 250-grain spitzer over 2400 FPS, which will give a trajectory as good as the .308 Winchester, with a bullet only 50 grains and 100 FPS shy of the heavy load in the great .375 H&H Magnum......

I guess it's a matter of expansion ratio 'fully tapped'

VERY efficient no doubt, and nicely in shorter hunting length barrels, even carbines.

I've got my receiver ready for the new barrel on my new upcomming 358. Will try my first Douglas Premium barrel. It's on order in a number 4 contour and will be finished out at 22". Haven't decided on a stock. Tossing around a High Tech Specialties stock but would really like a nice piece of wood. Would like to try my hand at inletting and putting my own finish on. Here in the Northwest we do get some rain and I'm trying to convince myself that wood would be OK. Will chamber and fit myself but I don't think I will try the blueing. I want to have a few of the parts color case hardened to accent a little and need someone to do this for me.
My rifle will wear iron sights as I want this for a woods gun and with as much under-brush as there is on the West side of the mountains I like iron sights in the woods. Any suggestions on iron sights for tired eyes? I'm stoked! After this one is done I'll start on my 9.3 X 62. Got a really nice VZ-24 with 1909 bottom metal I fondle almost nightly. thanks--Pegleg

Winchester produced the .358 Win. round in the pre 64 model 70 Fwt. That was the rifle the round was designed for. I have owned several of them early on, and rechambered them to 35 Whelan Imp. and 35 Gibbs, that was in my youth and wildcatting stage.

Great round, the .358 Win., kills well. I doubt that under equal circumstances it was any better than a .308 with 180 or 200 gr. bullets and thats why it lacked popularity, but the 35 cal. has never been a success in the USA for some reason. too bad.

Good point Ray, I often wonder about many cartridges 'track record' and how they may be much improved had many hunters used the heavier bullet weights with higher SD, giving more penetration which is what gave the 6.5x55 it's legendary status, as too perhaps the 7x57 and others.

That applies to large game. Deer often drop like lightening with high speed sometimes lightweight frangible bullets, but when you get to larger game i.e. elk, moose, and bear, I think if one can get past the 'more loopy trajectory on paper' looking at the heavier bullets, then you can get the benefits when using heavier slugs, when used taking game at normal ranges.

I blame Remington, but I blame Remington for a lot of stuff. When the 600 series of rifles came out, Remington chambered .35 Rem 'cause it said "Remington" when they could easier have chambered .358. Some folks rechambered to fix that mistake and got superlative hunting rifles, short, light, handy, natural pointers with lots of thump. Might have caught on had they been factory chambered that way.

On that note, I could do a WHOLE lot of happy hunting slaying alot of game with a handy 20-21" 338 Federal OR 358 Winchester properly loaded.

I intend to have one of either, or both someday. I imagine for economical plinking, a 358 win could use pistol bullets and light charges virtually duplicating the economics of loading for say my 357 Marlin, which is an awful lot of fun.

Al Miller said long ago, the 'Fireplug 350RM' in a 600 series was one of the most overlooked, useful/practical rifles designed, and when one understands the ballistics of properly loaded 35's in either short case, they offer great flexibility, light pistol bullets for small game, whether slow loaded for eating them, faster loads for say varmints, or up through heavy serious bullets that were used on Cape or Water Buffalo when the combo hit the market, as well as Grizzly, etc, and with great effectiveness I might add.

Perhaps Ruger offering the 350, and this year both 338 Federal and 358 Winchester, JUST perhaps we might see the pendulum swing back to practicality......and that includes more 338-06 and the Whelen as well. Shootable rounds that work, w/o killing one's shoulder.

Ray

Its the other way around, the .358win was originally developed for the M88 lever action and chambering it for the M70 fwt was an after thought, this is apparant as there are virtually no fwt's around while one can still find 88's in the .358.

I have heard the arguement that the .358win will do nothing different than the .308win and all i have to say is do it, dont speculate. Any person who has used the larger 358 diameter cartridges will tell you it hits with much more distinction than the 30 caliber brethren. Yes they will both kill, but the 35 open up larger exits and hit with more authority. If one was to subscribe to this theory than any thing other than a .308 is a waste of time, why are there so many cartridges?

.. Any person who has used the larger 358 diameter cartridges will tell you it hits with much more distinction than the 30 caliber brethren. Yes they will both kill, but the 35 open up larger exits and hit with more authority. If one was to subscribe to this theory than any thing other than a .308 is a waste of time, why are there so many cartridges? [/QUOTE]

Having shot a lot of pistols in my past, one can notice what say a 44 compares to a 357 when shooting water, larger bullet widens the SHOCK WAVE.......same as pellet guns 177 vs 22.

I distinctly remember shooting a 30-30 contender and a 44 in a 10" in college on a silhouette at 100 yds at the range.

The 150gr 30 cal hit good, but the 44 180gr HAMMERED it, pushing it MUCH further back. Now the 30-30 did about 1800 or so I believe with those, and about 2000 with 130's...perhaps I was shooting the lighter ones, but in the 44 It was 1910 fps chrono with federal 180 HP's, and less with say 240s, but the point is, the LARGER heavier bullet IMPACTED visibly much harder on that ram that swung when hit. Literally the ram went back all the way hinged at the top-the lower end slammed back to move it about 90 degrees with 44, where as the 30-30 did about half, perhaps 45 degrees. Yes, Iron is not the same as meat, but it illustrates how energy is transmitted.

That said, I would be if a test were done, ALL else equal, a 358 vs 308 cal, would show this, if you calculated the 'cross sectional area' and don't ask me how, it would be of significance. More so than just calculating increase in bore diameter........and THAT is what is at work, pushing energy over a larger area, which DOES hammer game more.....as witness by those using the larger bores.

Paper energy aside, the way a projectile TRANSMITS a shock wave is of signicant value in the field.

Yes, dead is dead, but when I used my 338-06 in the past, and my partner, the 350 he bought from me, we were amazed how it slammed the animals to the ground, so it seemed.....and I say that as I know the ft.lbs are not supposed to be responsible for that, but rather the shock effect to the animals CNS system..

To me, If ruger made the mannlicher 77 carbine at 1/5 the cost that winchester made their custom shop models.....in 358, it would be SO tempting. Anything 19-22" and I could be happy....perhaps a BLR some day, or a 77 cut to 20-21. I don't see any reason for more barrel in that bore/ctg.

Heck I guess the 308 would be too easy, sitting right between the combo rounds like 260 and 7mm08, and the great varminter 243 and for good shots larger game too, OR the now 338 federal and 358. Yes, a 308 will get it done, but they are not as flat as the smaller bore cousins, nor hit with quite the same authority as the 338 or 358. It is a jack of all trades, fine for some, but not my cup of tea.

We all have our opinions. I will say, having ammo choices in 308, at a cost savings, is a benefit to many and why it and the 223 sell like they do.

I have two and find they work just about perfect on deer out to 250yds.
I also have the 358's little sister, I had my Model 88 rebored to a 338-08, another great deer round.

MRC 1999, 358
Win. Model 88, 338-08
Savage 99, 358

I'm a .35cal fan and my first was the 358Win in a rebarrelled Win M70. First surprise was that with a 200gr or 250gr its milder recoiling than a 308Win with 180gr projectiles ... a few first-time users of the 358Win have commented to me along those lines, so that's experience not numbers talking. Second surprise was that sighted with a 200gr at 200m ... it's still useable to 250m and that covers ALL my hunting needs.
My second short .35 is a Ruger stainless/synthetic in 350RemMag with proper 1:12" twist. The ability to use from 158gr "plinkers" through to the 310gr Woodleigh defines versatility by my definition. That rifle pushed the Remington 375H&H out of the safe A better hunting combination I've not been able to find ... yet
One of my future projects may be a 35/300RUM on a Brno 602... but to be honest the short .35s just seem to do all that's required ... and the 358Win in particular will do 90% of nearly everything!
Cheers...
Con

jbmich,

nice, sweet those 88's, but just let me know when I can borrow that MRC!

That MRC looks real nice but the bolt is on the wrong side.
When I rebarrel my 300SAUM Sendero I have to decide between the wildcat 300SAUM or 350Rem Mag. The 350Rem Mag will be less hassle I think as far as getting brass and dies. A 350SAUM is tempting.

Why NOT the 350 saum? Packy

My project is getting closer to looking like a real rifle. I will have a barrel in a couple of weeks and a new stock in about 4 more weeks. I'm ordering iron sights today and will go with the NECG Calssic rear sight and the Masterpiece banded front sight. I've got the action ready for the barrel then off to get blued. I'm still stoked! This rifle will also have a barrel band sling swivel attachment. It's been fun so far.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h234/3knives/006-1.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h234/3knives/003.jpg

Hey Pegleg,

I'm doing the same thing as you. Just got mine back from the smith a few days ago.

24/47 action
Douglas #3, 24",1-12 twist
NEGC sights
Timney trigger
Timney Bueler safety
Boyds JRS lam. stock
Burris QD base & rings
Nikon Monarch 1.5-4.5

Hope to use 250gr Woodleigh RN seated long for hunting at my place on the Yentna river in AK.

I'll have to finish the 358 project this winter though. Between work (Prudoe Bay 2 on,2 off) and work at my cabin I just don't have the time to mess with it till then.
We should share load and performance info when we get them shooting. I'll check back in July when I get home.
Good luck with your project.

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Why NOT the 350 saum? Packy

That was a typo on my part. I type too fast at times. I meant a 350 SAUM wildcat. The why not is not having any data and maybe being one of the first to try. It should actually out perform the 358 Win quite a bit. It would be a very versatile round I think.
A negative to me is having to make the brass but once a couple hundred are made that task is over for a while.

Let's see 1 358 Win BLR. 1 Shot kills

2 Cow Elk
1 Zebra
1 Kudu
1 Waterbuck
2 Imapala
4 Pigs

225 grn Nosler Partition 50 grns of 4895...It's a horrlible cartridge...I mean let's face it at 2450 fps you really can't shoot beyond 250 yds...and gosh I take all my shots at 260+...NOT!!

Yentna- You are right. We are very close in matching projects. Good luck with your endeavors up north. I can only imagine what you are creating up in the real last wilderness. I've been to Alaska a few times but only the Southern parts and each time I want to go further North. It is really a wonderful place. When you get back lets make contact and go over load development and such. I'm a heavy bullet for caliber type shooter so I'm looking for a 250 grain load to start with. I've discovered the Northfork Bullet through this site and it is one of the bullets that really gets the job done with style. They are marvelous bullets. I've shot a bull elk and a blacktail and it was a bang flop deal. The bullet from the elk preformed perfect and the one on the blacktail was a pass through. The few tests I've done show they work great. I might try the 270 grain Northfork but am concerned that the 270 grain will leave me enough case left for powder. Needless to say I like the Northforks. Good luck up North and get back safely.

Got my barrel today and will fit it tomorrow. The stock should be here in three to four more weeks. I bought a Richards Micro fit stock in AA Fancy grade American walnut in the Clasic style and I'm looking into checkering paterns. By the time the stock arives I will have the barrel fit, a new trigger installed, and a new bolt handle. Then will rust blue it myself after all. I was considering having the blueing done by someone else but have decided to try the rust blueing solution out of Brownells. Then sights! It's fun and rewarding to see it coming together.

I recently bought a .358 win. in a mauser action and synthetic stock. It has a redfield peep site and is about as accurate as any rifle I own.Two inch groups at 100 yards offhand.My loads push a 200 grain bullet at near 2500 fps. Plenty for deer around here as most shots are under 200 yards.

I did not realize how popular the 358 Win was til I started this discussion. Lot of good comments on its behalf here.

I stopped by Stan Bakers in Seattle and Olsen had 14 rounds of the old Winchester Super X with the 250 grain Silvertip. All the guys in the shop couldn't believe I was building a 358 Win. Sure got their attention, though. They gave me the Silvertips! And think, Olsen shoots a 45-70!

I used it in a Sav 99 and it killed very well and I even made some rather long shots with it, which I found amazing for such a pokey round.

In the end I traded it off as a dull and boring caliber for me and went on to other calibers, but I still do this as I have always liked to use different calibers. I suppose I am an experimenter of calibers, a lover of rifles, and seldom use the same one more than a few times, that and the fact that I am the ultimate gun whore, and cannot keep a gun very long before I peddle it or trade it. There are a very few exceptions to this rule with me.

Would buying a 358, shooting everything I took with it last fall, buying a 444 Marlin and loading 5 different bullets in it, doing a lot of load testing, then building a 35 Whelen which is to be finished in a week or so make me a gun whore?

You said it Rick!


Me too!

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
Would buying a 358, shooting everything I took with it last fall, buying a 444 Marlin and loading 5 different bullets in it, doing a lot of load testing, then building a 35 Whelen which is to be finished in a week or so make me a gun whore?

Rick,
It's a good start ... but you need to trade off what you bought for some exotic wildcat for which you have no dies ... get that shooting and use it for awhile (whilst buying/building other rifles), sell and trade them for the next "best thing" to really be a rifle whore. The money equation (buying/selling/trading) needs to enter into it somewhere ... otherwise your just the sweet girl next door.
Cheers...
Con
PS: But you never sell a 358Win!! Just build another.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I would too, but if I had one of the old rifles at hand, I would not worry in the least about using .358 bullets, of ANY weight.

I never ceases to amaze me how little some of the "experts" must have in the way of genuine experience....or knowledge of everyday mechanics.

Over the years I have owned perhaps a dozen or more original Mauser sporters in 9x57. I have used .358" bullets with perfect satisfaction in all of them.

As any of the same "experts" will likely agree, when shooting any hand-load in any rifle, one really should begin with a low powder charge and "work" the load up. (I think it is that word "work" that scares many of them.) By working the load up, that means "trying out" different charges, different primers, different bullets, etc., until one gets something that performs well and satisfies them, while being very safe.

So, why don't they understand that with an APPROPRIATE primer, case, and powder charge it is absolutely possible to work up safe, satisfactory loads with jacketed bullets from one to three thousandths OVER OR UNDER the bore diameter?

Sure, one should use the same size bullets as bore groove diameter, IF one can get them. But don't obsess about it. One can make something suitable and quite good for hunting with bullets which aren't a perfect fit until sized down or bumped up by firing.

Absolutely true, and groove variations in older rifles can be amazing, especially in the British rifles that I shoot. The .400/.360 Purdey Nitro Express is supposed to be .367" groove diameter. Mine is .3635". I used off the rack .366" 9.3 bullets for years with zero problems, although I size them down in a Çorbin die today. Just think how many rounds of .410" factory .450/.400 rounds went down .405 to .408" bores over the years.

When Hornady was developing their new .450/.400 ammo, they were concerned about this issue, so they pressure tested .410" 400 grain bullets in both .410" and .408" barrels. Difference was something like 600 PSI.

Of course, only a fool would try that with a mono-metal bullet.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The evil truth is that I wanted to build another 358 but my Mauser action was long enough for the Whelen and my gunsmith didn't have a 358 reamer anyway. The other reason is that I have a bunch of powder that is more suited to the Whelen than the 358. I bought the 444 because I had a lot of bullets on hand in the right diameter and felt I needed a plinker. I will say that I like my older steel frame 358 a bit better than the newest versions of the BLR. I also recently bought a 1971 Remington BDL in 7MM Rem. mag, bedded it, adjusted the trigger and the old Stainless tube is an easy MOA rifle. Around the same time I traded for a push feed Model 70 in 270 that after very little load developement shoots almost as well.

I had a .358 Win built on a 1999 MRC stainless action and had them barrel it at 21 inches long with a 1 in 12 inch twist.

Put into a MacMillan Edge stock with no floorplate, ADL style, it weighs in right at 7 pounds with a Leupold 2.5-8 compact scope. I shoot a "Book max" load of 52 gr of W-748 under a 225 gr Partition, after working up to the load from 48 gr. It shoots under a half inch regularly. That loads chronographs at 2537 FPS from my gun.

I'm taking it to South Africa for plains game in the bushveld later this month. I tried the 225 TSX bullets, but they did not group as well as the partitions.

I always wondered why it is so hard for people to understand the difference insmak going from 308 to 358? 0.050" in bullet diameter is a big difference in frontal area. Packy

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
The. 358 is magical. It just simply works! If you have never owned/used one, you wouldn't understand. Lou

Have heard that.

With all this comparison between the 338Fed & 358Win the 338Fed looks better on paper.
Only because Federal has 3 loads using special super-dooper powders to make it look impressive.
IMO it's a cracker of a cal,but if Federal(or other) would bring out a couple of loads for the 358W eg = 200gn Barnes TSX,250gn Woodleigh RN SN etc,well now we have some factory ammo worthy of this 50+ year old gem.

I reference 358 win load data for my 9.3x57

A great round. Nice to see Ruger chambering for it. I will never part with mine.

Every time I see that rifle I drool .

Much a sweet cal.

My 358Win project is moving forward. I just sent my receiver and bolt to Vapo for a new Dakota bolt handle and jewelling. I tried my hand at welding on another Mauser and although it came out OK it is nothing like Vapo can do. If you haven't seen what Vapo can do in the way of jewelling, then look at the action he has for sale in the classified section.
I hope to receive my stock in the next couple of weeks and get the barreled action inletted.
Then sights and blueing. Then a little range time.!