The recent threads about favorite bullets, bullet expectations and inadequate calibers have got me wondering. My experience is limited compared to some, but I’ve killed a lot of deer, some elk, some African PG and some hogs. In doing so I have used a wide variety of bullets in calibers ranging from .223 to 444. Core Lokts, Accubonds, Ballistic Tips, the old Silver Tips, Partitions, Fail Safes, TBBC, Hot Core, plain old no name soft points and even a few FMJ’s on feral pigs. In 27 years of big game hunting I have lost 4 animals that I shot with a high powered rifle, three WT does and a blesbuck. Of the four, two were bad shots on my part and two were me losing the trail in thick stuff and darkness. I was able to recover those deer the following mornings and they showed that I hit them well. I’ve also been lucky and able to recover animals quickly with what turned out be marginal shots. I’ve had some where the bullet went straight thru and upon field dressing it, you could hardly tell it had been shot, but the animal was still DRT. And I have seen 90 # deer run a hundred yards with a 1” exist wound and their heart/lungs nothing but pulp.

I look at success as having an animal on the ground as quickly and humanely as possible. So by my own judgment and providing I did my part correctly, all the bullets did theirs. Certainly in a couple instances, I would have liked to see more expansion, but the animal died quickly so I can’t say the bullet failed.

So in your experience, when has a bullet failed?

Thanks!

Adam

when its construction paramenters are exceed and it fails structurally outside of those parms.

a BT exploding -- that's what its designed to do
a deep penetration SP that splatters.. not good

the death of the animal is not actually REVELENT to the bullet failure. for example, a FMJ or solid penciling through an animal, but due to shot placement, it is wounded and not recovered (whatever circumstance) is NOT a bullet failure. its a shot placement/bullet selection failure.

does a 223 kill deer with a varmit bullet? more than likely, every day .. but the bullet construction for use is invalid..

Plain and simple, it fails when it doesn't perform as it's expected/designed to.

If I didn't get complete penetration, reasonable expansion, and a dead deer right quick with any reasonable shot angle with a 150 grain bullet out of my .308, I'd consider that a failure.

By the same token, if I shot a groundhog with a 50 grain V max out of my .22-250, and it just whistled right through him, I'd consider that a failure too.

When you're blaming it for something.

In example, a man shooting a deer with a varmint grenade from a .22/250, in that case the failure lies between the rifle and the ground.

What Jeff said. If you use a 150 Balistic Tip from a 300 Ultra on a big moose and it blows up on its shoulder without penetrating the chest cavity it's not a bullet failure. It's a failure of the hunter to pick the right tool for the job.

Mark

quote:

Plain and simple, it fails when it doesn't perform as it's expected/designed to.

Does this mean that if I use a Hornady A-max in my 300 Savage and plug a bull elk in the boiler room and it is found in the dirt on the far side of the elk that died in it's tracks with an exit hole the size of a tennis ball and the bullet somehow has mushroomed to the size of a dime and has retained 90% of it's original weight......that this is a bullet failure?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Plain and simple, it fails when it doesn't perform as it's expected/designed to.

Does this mean that if I use a Hornady A-max in my 300 Savage and plug a bull elk in the boiler room and it is found in the dirt on the far side of the elk that died in it's tracks with an exit hole the size of a tennis ball and the bullet somehow has mushroomed to the size of a dime and has retained 90% of it's original weight......that this is a bullet failure?

quote:

When you're blaming it for something.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Does this mean that if I use a Hornady A-max in my 300 Savage and plug a bull elk in the boiler room and it is found in the dirt on the far side of the elk that died in it's tracks with an exit hole the size of a tennis ball and the bullet somehow has mushroomed to the size of a dime and has retained 90% of it's original weight......that this is a bullet failure?

No, it's just simple luck. Perhaps it depends on what you expected to happen. Most likely you wouldn't have even looked for the bullet if you hadn't expected to find it.

But on the other hand, as some suggest, if it hadn't exited, and you expected it to, you could blame the bullet for failure to do what you expected, whether it killed the elk or not; disregarding your responsibility to match your expectations to the design specs of the bullet you chose to use.

If it either performs better than expected, or better than its design would suggest, then that's just luck.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Plain and simple, it fails when it doesn't perform as it's expected/designed to.

Does this mean that if I use a Hornady A-max in my 300 Savage and plug a bull elk in the boiler room and it is found in the dirt on the far side of the elk that died in it's tracks with an exit hole the size of a tennis ball and the bullet somehow has mushroomed to the size of a dime and has retained 90% of it's original weight......that this is a bullet failure?

Nope, but if you use a target bullet and it doesn't open up, or fragments, it's on you, not the bullet.

A target bullet is designed to fly straight and make holes in paper. Sure, some of them will work, but I'd rather depend on a bullet that is designed for the game I'm hunting.

Having said that, it sounds like you got excellent performance from that bullet. Based on those results, I don't see any reason not to keep using them.

This threads already too much for me!!

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
This threads already too much for me!!

Jerry

Aye, but is that the fault of the thread or your fault for using it in the first place?

It's usually the nut at the end of the bolt

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
it sounds like you got excellent performance from that bullet. Based on those results, I don't see any reason not to keep using them.

Not at all.....I've never used a varmint bullet or target bullet for hunting except prairie dogs! It was purely a devil's advocate question and not based on any actual experience.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
it sounds like you got excellent performance from that bullet. Based on those results, I don't see any reason not to keep using them.

Not at all.....I've never used a varmint bullet or target bullet for hunting except prairie dogs! It was purely a devil's advocate question and not based on any actual experience.

It wasn't a very good hypothetical question, the problem with target bullets isn't that a chunk of metal traveling at some rate of knots isn't lethal, it's how reliably lethal that chunk of metal is.

Some are designed to be reliable killers no matter what and some happen to kill if you slip them in the thorax without them blowing up first.

It's a no-brainer as far I'm concerned, hence:

Bullets fail when the user says they do.

A-maxes, light for calibre ballistic tips, hell even varmint grenades are great neck shooting bullets, better than premiums for this purpose.

I've had two really bad bullet failures but it was my fault. I pushed them faster than they should have been. The first was a 225 grain Nosloer partition shot out of a 358 STA at close to 3300 fps. Shot a large black bear in the shoulder which I shouldn't have done. Bear was wet from swimming a canal. The bullet made a big flesh wound on the shoulder and the bear blead more than any bear I've seen. Followed him for over a mile and never recovered it.
The second was a Hornady 178 grain A-Max out of a 300 WSM. Shot a deer slightly quartering away at the back of the ribs. Bullet blew a 6 inch hole in the hide but didn't go more than a inch deep. Had to shoot him a second time. Too much velocity in both cases. I know match bullets are not designed for hunting but I've killed lots of deer with Match Kings and they have aways performed well.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
A-maxes, light for calibre ballistic tips, hell even varmint grenades are great neck shooting bullets, better than premiums for this purpose.

Many bullets are great for neck shooting, if that's the expectation. That's too narrow of expected use for my purposes, so I want a bullet that has more general purpose design. They will also serve well for neck shooting, should a good opportunity present itself.

BTW, the worst bullet failure I ever saw was when my budddy, a neck shooter specialist, lost a deer he shot in the neck with a varmint bullet. In that instance, I firmly believe a normal expanding bullet would have killed that deer, shot exactly in the same spot.

KB

The only bullets that I can call a failure were from Barnes.
The then new 25 caliber triple shocks had a cavity that didn't open they just went sailing through like they were shot with a full metal jacket bullet.
Two hogs and a deer made me give up on them,I still have a stash of the original Barnes X bullets in 35 and 7MM and will use these up over time.

I don't know. All my failed bullets ran off into the woods before I could talk to them.

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
The recent threads about favorite bullets, bullet expectations and inadequate calibers have got me wondering. My experience is limited compared to some, but I’ve killed a lot of deer, some elk, some African PG and some hogs. In doing so I have used a wide variety of bullets in calibers ranging from .223 to 444. Core Lokts, Accubonds, Ballistic Tips, the old Silver Tips, Partitions, Fail Safes, TBBC, Hot Core, plain old no name soft points and even a few FMJ’s on feral pigs. In 27 years of big game hunting I have lost 4 animals that I shot with a high powered rifle, three WT does and a blesbuck. Of the four, two were bad shots on my part and two were me losing the trail in thick stuff and darkness. I was able to recover those deer the following mornings and they showed that I hit them well. I’ve also been lucky and able to recover animals quickly with what turned out be marginal shots. I’ve had some where the bullet went straight thru and upon field dressing it, you could hardly tell it had been shot, but the animal was still DRT. And I have seen 90 # deer run a hundred yards with a 1” exist wound and their heart/lungs nothing but pulp.

I look at success as having an animal on the ground as quickly and humanely as possible. So by my own judgment and providing I did my part correctly, all the bullets did theirs. Certainly in a couple instances, I would have liked to see more expansion, but the animal died quickly so I can’t say the bullet failed.

So in your experience, when has a bullet failed?

Thanks!

Adam

Hi Adam, also live outside of Atlanta, How many whitetails have you taken with accubonds? How did they perform? This question open to all? I used BT's early on and no matter the angle (perfect or less), they fragged and I scooped guts. They killed but I'm wondering if that is what I will expect from the Accubonds too?

Assuming you are using an appropriate caliber/bullet and shooting within the bullets design parameters...assuming you hit the animal cleanly in the vitals with said bullet, I would expect the animal to expire quickly and be easily recovered.

If the bullet blows it's core, but kills the animal DRT. That's good performance to me. That particular bullet did it's job.

If the same bullet blows it's core but the animal runs 5 miles, that particular bullet failed.

quote:

BTW, the worst bullet failure I ever saw was when my budddy, a neck shooter specialist, lost a deer he shot in the neck with a varmint bullet

Not much of a specialist then was he?!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

BTW, the worst bullet failure I ever saw was when my budddy, a neck shooter specialist, lost a deer he shot in the neck with a varmint bullet

Not much of a specialist then was he?!!!

Right!!!!
A specialist sharpshooter in his own mind; typical of those who love shooting deer with varmint bullets.

Fortunately, to his credit, the next year I noticed that he had gone back to shooting his old 308, although he still used his favorite 130gr bullets.

KB

I would say that 99.9% of bullet failures are blow up outside the skin or failure to penetrate enough to get in the boiler room..I have seen a number of those failures, mostly back in the late 40s and early 50s. Back then bullet failure was relitively common..

Todays bullets seem to perform with few exceptions..A bullet can also fail by not expanding and I have seen this on ocassions back when, and it still happens ever so often for whatever reason..

Also if a hunter has a well designed bullet and shoots a going away elk in the posterior, it had best be a premium or super premium such as a Nosler, Woodleigh for instance in probably the heavy for caliber weight of bullet. I tend to take whatever shot is offered on elk as I hunt the black timber and thats a given going away shot..thus my choice of the 338, 9.3 or 375 and heavy Noslers as Nosler expand quickly for picture book shots and still penetrate very well indeed on the Texas heart shots, the same for Woodleighs and Northforks.

Its been a long time since I have experienced a bullet failure or lost an animal and I say Kudos to the bullet makers, they work at their job...

quote:

If the bullet blows it's core, but kills the animal DRT. That's good performance to me. That particular bullet did it's job.

If the same bullet blows it's core but the animal runs 5 miles, that particular bullet failed

in both cases, the bullet failed... you can not have same physical condition OF THE BULLET and say it depends..

shoot a hog in the ear ONLY (flap, not hole) its gunna run off...

shoot it in the eye, its bacon...

did you notice i didn't include bullet function in those two examples?

the animal dying has nothing, what so ever, do to with a bullet failing ... if shot placement is great, but you hit is with a high fragible bullet, and YOU wound it, your choice of bullets was flawed...

the bullet performed as designed..

if you hit it with a solid, in the shoulder, and it expands, and the animal died right there, the bullet failed..

I once shot a pheasant with a 20 Gauge and 1 ounce of #5 copper plated shot.

When I opened the bird I noticed all the copper plating was gone.....a serious case of "pellet failure" one might suspect....
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Then I remembered the guy hunting with me wasn't using plated shot....oh well!

This is a discusssion that could go on forever, but failure is purely and simply when a bullet does not live up to expectations. If a varmint bullet explodes, it did what it was suppose to. If a Partition comes apart and does not penetrate, then it failed. I once shot a small white-tailed doe with a Hornady SST 150 grain out of a .308. The velocity was only around 2700 fps and the thing dynamited. That was totally unacceptable to me and I will never use them again. A bullet must perform within its manufacturing parameters. The SST is only an A-max with a name change as far as I am concerned and target bullets have no place in the game fields unless you are shooting varmints.
I also had 165 grain Sierras out of a .308 come apart and not even fully penetrate a coyote at close range and also a deer on the same trip. I have not used them since.

Many bullets will kill game, but it is how it performs that proves whether or not it failed.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

If the bullet blows it's core, but kills the animal DRT. That's good performance to me. That particular bullet did it's job.

If the same bullet blows it's core but the animal runs 5 miles, that particular bullet failed

in both cases, the bullet failed... you can not have same physical condition OF THE BULLET and say it depends..

shoot a hog in the ear ONLY (flap, not hole) its gunna run off...

shoot it in the eye, its bacon...

did you notice i didn't include bullet function in those two examples?

the animal dying has nothing, what so ever, do to with a bullet failing ... if shot placement is great, but you hit is with a high fragible bullet, and YOU wound it, your choice of bullets was flawed...

the bullet performed as designed..

if you hit it with a solid, in the shoulder, and it expands, and the animal died right there, the bullet failed..

You should really read my whole post and not take pieces out of it. I guess the smiley face doesn't read as sarcasm to some people.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
A-maxes, light for calibre ballistic tips, hell even varmint grenades are great neck shooting bullets, better than premiums for this purpose.

Many bullets are great for neck shooting, if that's the expectation. That's too narrow of expected use for my purposes, so I want a bullet that has more general purpose design. They will also serve well for neck shooting, should a good opportunity present itself.

BTW, the worst bullet failure I ever saw was when my budddy, a neck shooter specialist, lost a deer he shot in the neck with a varmint bullet. In that instance, I firmly believe a normal expanding bullet would have killed that deer, shot exactly in the same spot.

KB

Yup, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

All of my neck shooting has been on deer facing straight away at less than 50 yards.

I aim at the second cervical vertebra so that if the bullet goes a little high it hit's the back of the brain, a little low and it's a still a high neck shot.

It can be a risky business though, it's a matter of evaluating each case on it's circumstances.

I be inclined to worry about a man who called himself a neck shooting specialist, unless he's a FC ranger who shoots hundreds of deer a year or something.

It is just another shot in the armoury, so to speak.

I see both sides of the argument here, and there is truth in both camps.

In my mind though, perhaps from having a manufacturing background, the ultimate test is, did it do the job it was designed for?

If you shoot a game animal with a target bullet and it either blows up or does not expand, not its fault. It wasn't designed with that goal in mind. As long as it shot accurately, it performed to expectation.

Hunting bullets are much more tricky, for any number of factors. Widely varying velocities and distances, differing game and shot angles, and not least of all, varying expectations from the hunter.

Just what "specifications" are you asking the bullet to meet? It is impossible for the manufacturer to test agains every single possibility that may come up in the field. Scientifically speaking, you need a repeatable test medium that allows for repeatable results. That is true scientific method. Field shooting of game animals is anything but that. Once again, too many variables.

Design a bullet to take a heavy shoulder hit, and you have decreased its ability to expand. Design it to expand reliably under all situations, and you have increased the likelyhood of a blowup on heavy bone. Everything is give and take.

My point being, what exactly are the specifications for that bullet? Data on that is extremely limited. It may say on the box "do not exceed 3400 fps," but is that for praire dogs, or coyotes? What about wolf? Performance will vary with where exactly in the specification band you are at.

Bullets don't come witha 5 page document detailing exactly what they can and cannot do, exactly what conditions they are designed to handle. They come with general guidelines that the average hunter tries to stretch to fit his own idea of what they should do.

IMO, most failures are really just someone trying to push the edge that got caught. Not always, by any means. I "think" I saw a 25 cal Barnes TSX fail a couple years ago. I "think" it penciled through without expanding. However, since neither the deer or the bullet was recovered, I really don't know. That is another part of the problem as well. Most true failures, by definition, are going to be hard to document. JMO.

Great post JTP and a good take on it. As with many other situations in hunting with rifle, most likely the majority of "Bullet Failures" lie soley in the realm of "Operator Error".

One of the reason I am not a fan of the 243, is that early in my hunting career, I saw too many deer with huge wounds that had to be shot a second or even third time to finish them off.

The problem was not actually the fault of the cartridge, but the fault of the shooter, whether they were a handloader or not, using ammunition that was loaded with lighter weight "varmint" bullets loaded to near maximum velocity.

Yes a properly placed shot in the head or upper neck gave spectacular results. Move that same bullet down to a 100 yard + shoulder shot and things got ugly really fast.

Not reallyu a case of bullet failure but a case of using the wrong tool for the job at hand.

Great posts. A bullet that does not stay together may kill the animal, but cannot be counted on to kill consistently. Use a bullet that is meant for the task at hand and you can GENERALLY expect things to go well. There are no absolutes, however.

I realized after I posted this that I made some assumptions that I shouldn’t have. My intent in the question was that one would have the right bullet/velocity/caliber for the game at hand and would be shooting for the heart/lung areas. Obviously shooting an elk with a 22-250 Varmit Grenade is asking for a pig f**k and I did not mean to include those sharpshooters that only shoot deer in the left eye. My apologies for not being clear in those matters.

From a technical standpoint, I think JTP has an excellent post; just too many variables and too little information as to what the performance criteria is.

Meant to say something else, but the phone rang and I totally lost my train of thought…oh well

@ Crazyhorse – Funny you mention the 243. The two deer that I lost but found the next mornings were shot with a 243. I will hate that caliber forever because of it. No fault of the caliber or cartridge or my shooting in reality. One of those deer actually went only 30 yards or so, but got into some privet and I just could not see it. I’ll bet I walked with 10 feet of it several times while I was slashing around in that crap.

@ Gunsrgood – I sent you a PM, but I like the Accubonds very much. Much better and tougher than the BT’s. I have only shot the 140gr from my 280 Rem ( a 140 AB from a 280 is the perfect deer medicine IMHO). I’ve shot 5 deer with them I think, all pass thru’s if memory serves all DRT for sure. I will load the 160’s in my 7mm RM and have some 180’s loaded for my 338/06 but have yet to shoot them at anything.


Thanks for all the responses!

Adam

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

The problem was not actually the fault of the cartridge, but the fault of the shooter, whether they were a handloader or not, using ammunition that was loaded with lighter weight "varmint" bullets loaded to near maximum velocity.

back in the 60s the 6mm 105grain Speer at high velocity wounded its share of game at high velocity. It wasn't intended to be a varmint only bullet.
A commercial brand of 120 grain 25-06 ammo did the same.
These I considered bullet failures when first used. If used after that they were hunter screw ups. roger

Like has been mentioned, I consider a failure to be when the bullet has been loaded to the proper velocity range for it's construction, and used in the intended manner, but wither blows up completely, or pencils right on through with little to no damage being done. I have experienced this with a number of bullets in various caliber in one extreme or the other.

This said, I have also used some of the "target" type bullets for hunting with VERY reliable and repeatable performance. They were however loaded at velocities much lower than what the normal range would be for them. Case in point, my daughters 6.5x55 shoots the 140gr Amax better than any bullet we had ever shot until two years ago. Loaded to a velocity of 2550fps it has dropped everything we have used it on with the same type of expansion and quickness time and time again. When I worked up the load I tested them on hogs for a full year before I turned her loose with them to use on deer. With the hogs I dropped them from 10yds to out past 300 with equal performance no matter the direction they were hit. The several deer she has shot with them also exhibited this same through and through performance. Cranking the velocity up only another 2-300fps however will turn them into flying bombs at ranges inside 150yds as we found with my friends .260.

The same can easily be said of the Nosler BT, crank up the velocity and they are simply grenades in the lighter calibers, but kept to a modest initial velocity of around 2800fps, they perform great things out to 300yds or more with medium weight for caliber bullets.

I have had Partition's loose both cores, and Barnes blow off all the petals, but to me this wasn't the bullets issue it was me using them at beyond what they were designed for like has been mentioned. I have also had 30 cal. Sierra 165gr BT's pencil right on through several deer which should have been a DRT shot.

When my bullet misses it's target ,it's a "bad bullet" ,The bullet is afraid of the intended target or animal,and moves so it does not destroy itself,similar to the magic bullet in the Kennedy assination,that "yaw'd" and did unspeakable things to the humenas it did hit ....again the bullet was trying to protect itself from destroying itself....

So now I buy only "Brave bullets" ,they cost more,but they get the job done and they know they are expendable....

Shot placement is the key....to good hunting! and dropping the animal in it's tracks ! But it's not always easy to do .....

Thats why we call it hunting and not killing....a good hunter will not take a shot that is incorrect !

My 2 cents.

BB34

vapdog , I don't think some people realized that your hypothetical .300 Sav. scenerio was tung in cheek . I however know that's not possible !

95% of the bullet failures Ive had have been a direct result of me making a bad shot. But thats not really a bullet failure, is it?

Then again, I dont use varmint equipment for deer..

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
back in the 60s the 6mm 105grain Speer at high velocity wounded its share of game at high velocity.

incorrect - the 244 was introduced with no commerical loads over 90gr, with a slow twist. it was reintroduced as the 6mm rem, with 105s, for hunting bullets, with a fast twist. the 105 being a deer load

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

It wasn't intended to be a varmint only bullet.

the 105gr was specifically a deer load.

try fact checking once in awhile, roger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_Remington

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
back in the 60s the 6mm 105grain Speer at high velocity wounded its share of game at high velocity.

incorrect - the 244 was introduced with no commerical loads over 90gr, with a slow twist. it was reintroduced as the 6mm rem, with 105s, for hunting bullets, with a fast twist. the 105 being a deer load

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I didn't even mention the .244. I was talking about a bullet only shot from one of my wild cats.
Either you got a hard on for me or you need some mental professional help.
your understanding of the written word could also use a little work.

It wasn't intended to be a varmint only bullet.

the 105gr was specifically a deer load.

try fact checking once in awhile, roger
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org get real and get off my back.