Well, I see we have another new set of short magnums. Another Ruger/Hornady development, it seems. A short, fat 30-caliber and a short, fat, .338. The .30 is supposed to equal a 24" barreled .300 WSM in a 20" tube, and the .338 is supposed to be as good as a 24" .323 WSM using only a 20" barrel.

This magic is supposedly attainable only through the use of "special" powders. Now, just why these special powders could not have been used for special-performance loads in the existing WSM cartridges is somewhat mysterious to me. Maybe the innovators will explain this to us dummies. Otherwise, I will be among the "great unwashed" who will be skeptical of our need for yet more short .30's - or .338's.....

Guess I need to run out and sell my .338 win mag now that it is obsolete.......yeah right!

The morons are back at it I see....
Why the hell can't they just leave good enough alone??
They'll have a cold day in hell before I buy one of those new fangled chamerings.

Don

Gentlemen, gentlemen, this is the American way. You don't just fill a need, first you have to create it!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Gentlemen, gentlemen, this is the American way. You don't just fill a need, first you have to create it!
Peter.

Oh so true.......

If there's a dollar to be made off of marketing hype and FUD , the manufacturers will milk it for all it's worth.

I was checking out some shotguns earlier in the year and the salesman helping me asked if I was going to trade up my 7mm Remington Magnum for one of them new 7mm WSM or SAUM rounds. I said "no, my 7mag puts 3 150gr ballistic tips into .75" like no one's business". The salesman, a delightful old man, turned to me and said "good, that's a damned fine rifle I sold you. We're supposed to upsell the latest and greatest every chance we get, don't you believe a magazine that says your gun ain't as good as I say it is".

I had a good laugh over that and he explained that there have been a lot of hunters coming in looking at the new generation of Magnums, not to fill a need per se, but to fill a need already filled by another rifle they already own because they've been led to believe that there's something "wrong" with the rifle they already own in light of the introduction of the new cartridges.

However, guns are big business and there is money to be made. Making a product which is "new and improved" and marketing it well can lead to big money for gunmakers. And that's what they want. The fact that new, improved cartridges are being created is just a bonus. The more the merrier, I say. The last of the "new and improved" that really impressed me however was the .325 WSM, which I thought was pretty cool. These new RCMs are just rehashing something that someone else already did with a few minute changes, while adding in a fancy, not-available-to-reloaders powder that probably just mimics the Vihtavuori 500-series powder.

Is there another short action 338 caliber round that fits a .532 bolt face, has a non rebated rim, and no belt. Also, according to Hornady the RCM rounds slimmer profile allow an extra round in the magazine as compared to the WSM cartridges. They supposedly are easier to get to fit and feed in existing short actions as well. I really don't understand all negativity that has been posted lately about anything new that hits the market. I sort of consider periods like this as Darwin's Theory of cartrdge selection. The manufactures need to create(improve?) new products to make money and either the old stand-bys prove their worth against the upstarts or they gradually lose market share to the newer design. This is the way the entire world works. If the new cartridges aren't worth a damn then they will go away on their own without out a hoard trying to commit abortion on them. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but I have to ask a question. If you are against the new RCM line what exactly do you see as a flaw in the design or the execution of these?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with these new cartridges, for a person who does not yet own something similar, if older. But Ido not believe any of those "advantages" you listed are sufficient to justify replacing any of the older rounds with one of these.........

I feel much more comfortable with cartridges that have been around for 100 years or more ! My main battery includes 6.5x55, 30-06, 45-70 .

The American gun companies need to create new things to stay in business. without it they will falter and go out of busines, and then the right to keep our guns will follow. Illogical logic will be "if gun companies are going out of business, nobody needs them"...... Dont let this happen.

If you are happy with your guns, fine. If you are like most gun loonies, you like to tinker and try something else. You never know, the fit, recoil, accuracy, etc might be just that little bit better, that you really like it. If not, let the new ideas, feed the enthusiasm of the new generation of hunters and gun owners. My son has become a true gun nut. age 19, and doing lots of reloading and shooting along with hunting. He now wants to try to get into gunsmithing. He absolutely loves the old rounds, 30-06, 300 H&H, 7 mauser, but also just eats up all the info he can find on the new rounds.
Nothing wrong with that.

IMHO

"There is nothing wrong with these new cartridges."

Well, from one perspective there may be. What if I show up in a remote town in Wyoming to hunt and discover I've left my new fangled short magnum ammunition on the coffee table at home. What am I going to have a better chance of buying off the ammo shelf at the hardware store -- .30-06 ammo, .25-06 ammo, .243 ammo, or ammo for one of those new fangled short magnums? How many different bullet/load combinations am I going to find for these short magnum cartridges versus other cartridges that have been around a long time and become popular over the years?

Personally, I have bought two brand new rifles over the past four years, while the short magnum rage has been at its peak, and I never considered buying one of these new cartridges, instead choosing .243 (introduced in the mid-1950s and a very popular cartridge) and .30-06 (introduced 1906 and perhaps the most popular selling ammo in the US).

Of course, other people think differently. They WANT something new and untried. Newness attracts them. That is OK, and definitely good for the gun manufacturers. It is a free country. These people could do worse things with their money, like buy illegal drugs on the black market or lots of rapp music thereby promoting and underwriting the rapp culture.

quote:

Originally posted by loki:

Well, from one perspective there may be. What if I show up in a remote town in Wyoming to hunt and discover I've left my new fangled short magnum ammunition on the coffee table at home. What am I going to have a better chance of buying off the ammo shelf at the hardware store -- .30-06 ammo, .25-06 ammo, .243 ammo, or ammo for one of those new fangled short magnums? How many different bullet/load combinations am I going to find for these short magnum cartridges versus other cartridges that have been around a long time and become popular over the years?

I've been wrestling with this argument and I'm not sure I like it. Who really leaves their ammo at home, or looses it in transit? I know it happens, but really, if you're prepared and organized, what are the odds it'll happen to you?

I've heard of it happening in wilderness trips due to accidents, but most of the time simple preparation can prevent you from having to go buy more ammo on a hunting trip.

Try finding 100 rds of brass when you want to work up a load. Gianni

quote:

Well, from one perspective there may be. What if I show up in a remote town in Wyoming to hunt and discover I've left my new fangled short magnum ammunition on the coffee table at home.

One of my main rifles these days is an old SXS in 8X60RS. I better not leave my ammo at home!

I don't understand this either. I don't own or have any interest in the new cartridges but why should it make me mad? I hope it sells them a lot of rifles, isn't that a good thing?

If you have problems forgetting things like ammo when traveling to a remote hunt you have bigger problems than cartridge selection.

more choices = good
more rifles, more calibers = good

The market will sort it out.

I am happy with my "traditional" choices, but not everyone would be, thus the "need" for a number of different ways to skin the same cat.

All the cartridges that have been mentioned were once new cartrdges and had to fight for acceptance. I have read that the 338 Winchester was slow on the uptake. I do not know about this from first hand account since I wasn't alive when it was introduced, but I bet you couldn't buy boxes of 338 win in every location across North America when it was new. Guess it is good that people were willing to support the cartridge long enough for it to get a foothold and become a classical round. What I am getting at is there is possibly some of the designs appearing today will be classics if enough people give them a chance. I don't think it is wrong to love a clasic cartridge or to overlook the upstarts if you are happy with what you have or grew up with said classics. How many people posting here on these forums were around when the 300 win, 338 Win, 243 win, 7mm RemMag and various other "modern" classics were introduced? For anyone in this category, I am intersted what your opinions were when these new rounds debuted; just curious.

I think the short, fat craze has produced some useful or certainly useable rounds.

That said, I don't like the marketing lies and half-truths that have been part of it....

For example, the 300 WSM was promoted by Winchester as being faster and more capable than its 300 Win Mag. In doing these promotions they compared apples and oranges in the worst way--factory loads of the 300 WSM with higher BC bullets compared with old factory loadings of the 300 Win Mag with lower BC's.

Also, they promoted the higher velocity of their 300 WSM rounds--while overlooking the fact that this was only true with factory rounds and light bullets. With 180g bullets the two factory offerings were effectively equal, and 200 grain the 300 WSM isn't even close.

Now to me, if I need or want a 300 Mag, I have no interest in shooting 150g bullets anyway. I start with 180g (actually at the 30-06 for me) and like the 200g in my 300 RUM.

Because of the rugged nature of where I hunt, I usually have the action closed on an empty chamber in the field. If the mag only holds 2 short fat rounds you are a bit more limited....

We can all figure out our own needs and wants. I just wish the folks making a living off "helping" us with that were a bit more even-handed with the comparisons.

Just my .02.....

Cheers,

Dan

Im a.338cal fan, so I hope 338rcm does well, .338-06 also deserves a better fate than it is currently experiencing.
just in my nature to bolster underdog rounds like the 280rem,.338-06, 9.3x64B.

Dan H, I agree with the point that false or misleading marketing is not the proper way to represent a new product. That being said, this is unfortunately not a fad that is as new as the short fat cartridges either. To be fair to the RCM, Hornady has said that rifles chambers for these rounds can hold 4 rounds. They aren't any fatter than say a 350 RemMag.

the 338 makes a case for a "woods gun" being a compact action and 20" Barrel and at least a 225 grain bullet.

would you rather a 358 win or a 338 RCM???

I say neck the 300 RCM (larger case) to 35, 9,3, 375 and 400 and the capacity will exceed the 06 that is nothing to sneeze at.

The new RCMs, and their soon to be made wildcat relatives, serve some useful purposes for a lot of us. For instance, they can be chambered in any presently made long or short action rifle, and they will also work in Encores and Ruger Number Ones, which is something the WSMs can't do.

338 WM ballistics out of a short action and a 20" barrel is a potent useful package that a lot of hunters can live with. And another round in the magazine never hurt anyone except for a WSM fan. Better feeding and no super short scopes required sounds like a winning combination to me. And a shorter barrel is lighter to carry as well, or you can have a stouter barrel contour at the same weight if you want.

Even though we don't all have access to Federal's special loading techniques and miracle powders producing all that velocity from 20"barrels, the RCMs will produce just as much velocity as any similar capacity case will with the powders that we all do have access to out of similar or standard length barrels. What's not to like about that?

In my opinion Winchester and Remington attempted to rip Rick Jameson off after all the hard work he had done with his 300 Jameson. The WSMs and RUSMs were just slight variations on the 300 Jameson and his other bore diameter clones, with the changes made being those that would cost less to tool up for and hopefully be enough to keep them out of a law suit. Which didn't work out too well for either of them.

Hornady and Ruger took a longer and more difficult rout to developing the 375 Ruger Magnum, which also gives 375 H&H Magnum ballistics out of a 20" barrel. I believe they came up with a better mouse trap for most of us than Winchester and Remington did. The RCMs are a case built on a shortened 375 Ruger Magnum case. Because of the nearly universal usability of the RCM line of cartridges, I predict Winchester and Remington will eventually be forced to chamber the RCMs in their lines of rifles, and the WSMs and RUSMs will eventually fall by the wayside after shooters and hunters come to realize all the advantages the RCMs offer...Rusty.

I’m sure we’ll be hearing from the people that buy them. “My reloads don’t get close to the performance of the factory ammunitionâ€, “does anyone here have a pet powder for itâ€.

The words “Proprietary Powderâ€, doesn’t register a thought with them.

If you like to reload and buy a rifle in one of these cartridges, than be happy with the fact that you can’t get close to factory velocities without much higher pressures. If you can’t buy it (the Proprietary Powder) than forget it.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sure we’ll be hearing from the people that buy them. “My reloads don’t get close to the performance of the factory ammunitionâ€, “does anyone here have a pet powder for itâ€.

The words “Proprietary Powderâ€, doesn’t register a thought with them.

If you like to reload and buy a rifle in one of these cartridges, than be happy with the fact that you can’t get close to factory velocities without much higher pressures. If you can’t buy it (the Proprietary Powder) than forget it.

I agree

Like others have said I hope our gun companies make money and flourish. I am having trouble now keeping up with the new ones. I was happy to see the WSM's so I could avoid the belt/headspace problem.

I don't understand the comment about "all the work Jamison did"?? For years hundreds of experimenters did lots of things. For that matter Elmer Keith did a thousand times more good than Jamison ever will in terms of new cartridges and concepts.

Now that all the new ones are out I can't get WW 300 or 375 HH brass.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sure we’ll be hearing from the people that buy them. “My reloads don’t get close to the performance of the factory ammunitionâ€, “does anyone here have a pet powder for itâ€.

The words “Proprietary Powderâ€, doesn’t register a thought with them.


If you like to reload and buy a rifle in one of these cartridges, than be happy with the fact that you can’t get close to factory velocities without much higher pressures. If you can’t buy it (the Proprietary Powder) than forget it.

Good point.

As I stated in another thread addressing this same topic, I really don't care if I can't meet or exceed 300/338 Win velocities with home grown ammo. Considering the case capacity, you are still going to have a performance envelope that falls in between the standard and magnum long action rounds that are comparable to the RCM's (30-06/338-06 - 300Win/338Win). I would say that is good company to be in especially if it is available in a lightweight carbine-style packagage. Me personally, I would rather maintain a 22-24" sporter weight barrel on the short action design even if I am running a RCM. I never have enjoyed the muzzleblast out of the short tubes. I had a M70 carbine in 270 when I was a teenager and I didn't care for the bark and bellow that rifle produced. I much preferred shooting my 300 Weatherby over that short carbine. The idea of having a short action rifle sporting a 24" barrel that can throw 210 Nosler Partitions downrange at say approx. 2850fps appeals to me. Some may question why I would want a short action then. For me, they seem to balance and feel better in my hands than a long action and I do enjoy the slightly shorter bolt throw. So, if I can have these preferences without what I consider drawbacks such as rebated rims and belts, then I am willing to pay for it. If you read this Hornady, please hurry up and make the debut... I am waiting

Hornadys new powder manufactuing department...

LOL!! KSTEPHENS, that's a riot!

We all have our own ideas about these things.
I am in the camp of why bother ?
The cartridge in .338 is about preformance wise about like a 338,06 AI.
A guy might choose it if he wants a lighter weight less powerfull 338 caliber rifle, and to some it seems one extra round in the chamber is important.
but it sure seems like waste of time and money to keep doing new things that do nothing new.
say that 5 times real fast. ...tj3006

I believe the special powders will eventually become available. Look at the market share and additional business the powder makers are missing out on now that they could be making a lot of money on now. Wouldn't you buy some of these special powders and give then a try if you could?

I don't believe it is just the special powders though; the high velocities are equally the result of special loading techniques the factories have that we can't, at present, duplicate. Remove the powder from anyone's "High Energy" load and try to put it back in the same case it came out of again. It won't all fit in there again!

Those special powders are probably the same old stuff we all use, just ground up finer and rammed down the case to pack more progressive burning powder in a case than we can get to fit in it. And the factories can afford the time and special equipment it takes to make sure this is all safe.

I am a handgun hunter, and those kinds of velocities are really exciting for me out of 20 inch barrels. 20 inches isn't that far from the standard 15" single shot pistol length barrels, and the velocity loss will not be as great going from 20" to 15 inches as it would be coming out of 24 or 26 inch barrels for handgun hunters.

Also, shorter cartridge lengths translate into a greater rate of expansion and more effective barrel lengths in our shorter handgun barrels. The rate of expansion is calculated from the base of the bullet to the muzzle crown, so those longer cartridges have more of a disadvantage for handgun hunters than they do for rifle hunters. And in a handgun, every little bit of extra barrel length you can get helps a lot...Rusty.

HondoLane--

I do think Ruger and Hornady have done a fair job with the 375 Ruger. The goal of meeting or exceeding the 375 H&H standard performance with a slightly shorter barrel and more case capacity is a good one--and by most accounts they have done well at it. The cartridge will also provide good spinoffs....

I will be keeping my 375 H&H, but might buy the 375 Ruger if I didn't have it. Heck, I may anyway someday.

I am glad to see folks working to improve standard length action options for our community.

Cheers,

Dan

New cartridges.
I'm waiting for a rifle to be delivered it's in the newer 7x57 Mauser it's called the 7x57R.
Does any one think it will last.

LOL That's good KSTEPHENS

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
Hornadys new powder manufactuing department...

I think I will stick with my 338-06. I do like the concept though, and I can see the appeal to someone looking to buy a 338 caliber rifle.

The new fangled 375 Ruger gave me a couple second thoughts, and I would choose it over the H&H.

I decided to go with a 9.3x64 Brenneke instead of the 375.

So if I put that "super powder" in my .300 H&H, will it make my Partition go back in time?

quote:

Originally posted by JLHeard:
So if I put that "super powder" in my .300 H&H, will it make my Partition go back in time?

you will have to belive that it will and do a shitload of clapping.

The idea of "secret or "propriatary" powder is pure malarky.

Buy a box of those shells and take one apart and see how it's done....

You can do it at home on your loading bench if you choose! It's not at all difficuly and with over the counter powders!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The idea of "secret or "propriatary" powder is pure malarky.

Buy a box of those shells and take one apart and see how it's done....

You can do it at home on your loading bench if you choose! It's not at all difficuly and with over the counter powders!

Oh really,,, well my local Sportsmen’s Warehouse is fresh out of Tinker Bell 4350.