I for one am glad the factories are out there trying to give all of us what we want, that way we have more choices. It has not always been like that.

The only thing that has come along in the last years that tweeked my interest was the 375 Ruger case. It is one well designed case and they should and will neck it up and down from .308 to .416 I suspect in a series of calibers to come. I think its needed, well maybe not needed but a pretty good idea anyway..

I couldn't wait, so I necked up a .375 Ruger to a .416 and guess I will name it the 416 Ruger, pretty novel idea on the name Huh!

I don't have any problem with the new catridges. That is not to say I'll likely be buying either. The ones I have seem to do just fine. I sort of like long actions, long catridges, and I don't mind a belt at all. However, for those that aren't happy it is always nice to have choices.

quote:

Originally posted by JBD:
I don't have any problem with the new catridges. That is not to say I'll likely be buying either. The ones I have seem to do just fine. I sort of like long actions, long catridges, and I don't mind a belt at all. However, for those that aren't happy it is always nice to have choices.

I can not disagree with you JBD.

I guess it’s a buyer beware thing. If a manufacture is using proprietary powder to obtain published velocities and you plan to reloading for it, you better know that going in. I bought a 204 Ruger a few years back but I knew I couldn’t buy the powder that Hornady was using in it. I’m fine with 150-200 fps less velocity, “No Tearsâ€.

Me too, I guess I have gotten used to or always excepted the belt since its been proving itself for a hundred or so years..I will stay with my 300 H&H, 375 H&H, .416 Rem., and 338 Win. I have no complaints on them but like the factories filling the needs of some of you youngsters!

My co-worker picked up a new .243 WSSM a year or so ago in a Browning A bolt. With the factory ammo we damn near had to beat the bolt open with a 2x4! They are loading the damn things too hot just to get higher velocities without enough consideration to reliability in my opinion. I'm not sure any real important advancements have been made since about '1913.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sure we’ll be hearing from the people that buy them. “My reloads don’t get close to the performance of the factory ammunitionâ€, “does anyone here have a pet powder for itâ€.

The words “Proprietary Powderâ€, doesn’t register a thought with them.

If you like to reload and buy a rifle in one of these cartridges, than be happy with the fact that you can’t get close to factory velocities without much higher pressures. If you can’t buy it (the Proprietary Powder) than forget it.

Propriatary propellants don't stay that way.

IMR4831, and IMR7828 didn't, nor did many others.

and at the very beginning with the 30WCF in the winchester 1894 there was no re;oaders smokeless propellant available.

The only "smokless" propellants available at the turn of the last century were "bulk" propellants for shotguns and a few, a very few pistol propellants.

AD

I can't believe anyone would defend Rick Jamison. Every cartridge in existence is nothing but an incremental improvement. Jamison should never have gotten a patent. What did he offer? There is already a 6mm PPC (short, fat). We already had a 284 Win with rebated rim. We have every angle of shoulder under the sun. Jamison is ripping off every gun owner in America.

As far as complaining about a new cartridge? Good grief, people. I don't care if Kimber comes out with a new round that shoots a bullet backwards. As long as nobody MAKES you buy it, what do you care? They aren't taking any of the old rounds away when they introduce new ones. You complainers are acting like a bunch of teenage girls when a new cute girl moves into town.

I feel better now.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage 99:
Like others have said I hope our gun companies make money and flourish. I am having trouble now keeping up with the new ones. I was happy to see the WSM's so I could avoid the belt/headspace problem.

I don't understand the comment about "all the work Jamison did"?? For years hundreds of experimenters did lots of things. For that matter Elmer Keith did a thousand times more good than Jamison ever will in terms of new cartridges and concepts.

Now that all the new ones are out I can't get WW 300 or 375 HH brass.

Cabelas has .375 H&H brass. I looked all over the Net for it and everybody's sold out, Midway's not taking backorders, and there sits Cabelas with a bunch of Remington. Bought a hundred for about $62.00, shipped. It isn't WW, but it works for me.

I just don't understand why there are so many cranky bastards out there that can't stand new cartridges. Why is it such and offense to some when a manufacturer makes a new cartridge?

If ya don't like it, don't buy it, and don't complain about it.

I am sure they said it all about the 270 Winchester in 1923! Why do we need a necked down 30-06 when we've already got the superior .275 Holland, the .280 Ross and Jeffrey's offerings?

They aren't taking any of the old rounds away when they introduce new ones.

Can't agree with the above in respect of the "fate" of the 270 vs 275 Holland and 280 Ross! The .270 effectively did "kill off" the Holland and the Ross.

Also a lot of the "modern" American chamberings in fact did just that and destroyed some of the very effective once MORE ESTABLISHED British and European chamberings.

What I do find perverse is they way that some really good never make it and that some, quite frankly p*ss poor by comparison, cartridges do.

The two examples that I always think of...and it's all about timing...are .243 Winchester vs 244 Remington and .270 Winchester vs 280 Remington.

Both the .243 and .270 are fine cartridges, of course, but they don't compare to what "could have been" had the .244 and .280 had the same "breaks".

I am always very wary of new cartridges as I fear that if they don't succeed then the makers will drop them and you will be left with gun that can't be shot.

Examples are Daisy "Caseless" Cartridge, 5mm Remington MRF - REMEMBER THAT? - .40 Action Express and the 9mm and .45 Winchester Magnum.

I am not big on the new cartridges, but if that's what the bean counters think will keep em in business, than I support it. If the gun companies go out of business we all lose. Lou

enfieldspares,

technically you are correct but i stand by my statement. My position is that "they" didn't take away the old ones when they introduce new one. The old ones were "taken away" by gun-buyers choosing the new one over the old one.

When the new round is clearly better, or when it is chosen over the previous round for "other" reasons, then the old round fails (is taken away).

But they don't discontinue the old rounds as they introduce new ones.

It's the gun buyers that make the choice - over time.

I just picked up some Tinker Bell 4350 and my .25-06 is shooting like a 7mm mag. All that out of a 18 inch tube. I'd better market this.

I understand why they made it… a lot of us ask why Win did not make the 325WSM a 338WSM.
You know there are a LOT of shooters who do not Handload… I did not beleave it myself… but it is true
Time will tell which new rounds gets accepted… I hope it does well… but it will have to do well without me.
Now Ruger needs to neck their 375 down to 358… and I will buy one.

Why aren't the designers going all the way? Why make the claim of the same speed in a 20" barrel what used to take a 24" to accomplish? Why not go right down to the legal minimum of 16"?? Isn't that also better?

It almost seems like Ruger and Hornady got fed up with all the Winchesters and Remington suffixes on cartridge designations and decided to bring out and name their own.

Or, the big city lawyers are bleeding them dry with their worthless lawsuits, so the manufacturers figure they better make stuff before they go belly up.

All I know is how many times can you re-invent the wheel before doing so comes back to bite you in the ass? When you only had the 45-70, 243, 270 and 30-06, almost every tiny backwoods hardware store carried every one of the available loadings. Even the ones that haven't been driven out of business by Lowes and Home Depot, would need a second mortgage to fund all the loadings of every cartridge available these days. So they'd need to pick and choose. Woe is you if they didn't pick your cartridge to stock their shelves.

So now you must buy from a specialty ammo store like Graf's or Midway. And since I reload almost exclusively, I'd never buy a rifle that was chambered in a cartridge that was made up of proprietary components forced into each case with an 8' drop tube.

Oh, you can also add the 480 Ruger to the list of recently obsoleted cartridges.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by enfieldspares:


The two examples that I always think of...and it's all about timing...are .243 Winchester vs 244 Remington and .270 Winchester vs 280 Remington.

Both the .243 and .270 are fine cartridges, of course, but they don't compare to what "could have been" had the .244 and .280 had the same "breaks".
QUOTE]

You know the funny thing is about these cartridges is. The 2 cartridges that are not doing well (though the 280 is doing better these days) are the ones with the word Remington at the end.

I'm just not a fan of how Remington markets and stands behind a new product. Remington seems fine with letting the 7mm and 300 SAUM's slip into extinction.

I can't wait for the Hornady .300 STWTCWSMRSAUMSS coming to a store near you.

Its funney I have seen alot of short mag shooters sell their guns from not getting what the selling gun magazines said the new gun would do.I have heard of lots of short mag shooters having failure to feed problems.The kimbers were the worst I have yet to see a person happy with a short mag kimber.I think Ruger got rid of them for the same problem.The oldy but goody guns kill just as good as the new fangled ones.Its a nightmare for gun shops to stock ammo now.When some one says do you have any 300 shells well theres rsm,wsm,win mag ultra mag .Even the guys at bass pro shop said many people bought the wrong shells.Its too much too many for a shrinking hunting gun market.There are tons of used 7 mm rem mags and 300 win mags that people traded off.If you can get a good buy in one grab it.There is no way a gun store can stock all the new and old calibers any more way too many.I do want a 416 Ruger too now thats an improvement that I would want.

Guys, I don't think for one minute Ruger, Hornady, Winchester or Nosler expects us to relegate our favorite rifles to the back of the safe and run out and buy the latest whatever.

The companies have to meet payroll, pay the light, water and power bills on a monthly basis. If there was nothing new for us to buy the only other option would be for us to buy a new MKII in 30-06 each year to keep the company doors open, that would be boring. They are just trying to offer us something new so we don't get bored and they don't go broke, thats all. Give them a break, they are trying to keep it interesting for us......................JJ

After reading the pros and cons regarding the 338RCM, when the opportunity to get an awesome deal on a Ruger 77 Compact in that chambering came along....I couldn't resist.
There is already a 338-06 and a couple 338 Win Mags in the gun safe so a bit of comparing in the future might be interesting.
When I bought the rifle a couple weeks ago there was no factory ammo or brass or even dies in my neck of the woods.
A call to Sinclair got dies and some factory ammo from Hornady was bought Stateside.
And now the big problem....no starting load info from any source be it powder companies or bullet manufacturers.
For the time being, I'll be winging it....

There are two used 338 RCM Hawkeyes sitting at Capital Sports in Helena. One is a synthetic stainless while the other is walnut blued. I do have to say that those are two of the nicest handling rifles I have ever played with. Unfortunately I just don't need one in that chambering.

Now I do shoot a Model 70 Ultimate Shadow (not super shadow there is a differance) in 270 wsm. I have to say that I love that gun and can put my hand on the bible and swear to having zero feeding problems.

As an interesting side note I was unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion the other day with a person who claimed to be a former 270 wsm owner. I listened as he described the unbelievable devastation that the said wsm round brought down on antelope and deer. Exit holes the size of dinner plates if your were to believe him and thus he would never shoot a wsm again and be forever faithful to his 25-06. Please! I found it all laughable and told him so. I have tried every factory loaded round possible on both antelope and deer and never seen an exit hole larger than my closed fist. I know, I know it's my own fault for getting involved with somebody spouting this drivel. But there was just something about his stained sweat pants that drew me in as he claimed, "I have 48 shotguns and don't remember buying 40 of them!". That and along with his claim of preferential employee only discounts on new ruger 25-06's for $740 at the local unnamed sporting goods store and his many titles in competitive long range shooting. Really, who was I to judge?

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sure we’ll be hearing from the people that buy them. “My reloads don’t get close to the performance of the factory ammunitionâ€, “does anyone here have a pet powder for itâ€.

The words “Proprietary Powderâ€, doesn’t register a thought with them.


If you like to reload and buy a rifle in one of these cartridges, than be happy with the fact that you can’t get close to factory velocities without much higher pressures. If you can’t buy it (the Proprietary Powder) than forget it.

Exactly!

I'm all for them, if they make the guns I'm interested in come down in price I think they're great. Haven't bought a new factory gun since well before Winchester closed. I personally have no use for anything short actioned but if others like them, go for it.

Would all of those bitching like to see all of the mfgs. go out of buisness, so they could bitch about that. As for special powders, they do use powders that we can not get. Also the major powder suppliers have all come out with a hybrid powder of sorts RL-17 Hodgen Hybrid 100, VV high energy powders. Go down the list of these new fangled jobs over the years 22-250 25-06, 270, 250 savage, 243, 7-08, 223, 308, and the list goes on and on. Some of us have 1 gun , others have, well more than 1 gun, and most would fit in the latter. I won't go out and buy 1 of each, but I did get a rem 7 LS Saum , not for the short fat, but because of the way it feels, points, looks and thanks to Rem dumping them, I got delivered through my dealer under $400. I bought all his unwanted ammo for $15 a box and I am set for all of its life hunting. Some of the stuff is useful and others are not so much. The market will determine which.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sure we’ll be hearing from the people that buy them. “My reloads don’t get close to the performance of the factory ammunitionâ€, “does anyone here have a pet powder for itâ€.

The words “Proprietary Powderâ€, doesn’t register a thought with them.

If you like to reload and buy a rifle in one of these cartridges, than be happy with the fact that you can’t get close to factory velocities without much higher pressures. If you can’t buy it (the Proprietary Powder) than forget it.

Propriatary propellants don't stay that way.

IMR4831, and IMR7828 didn't, nor did many others.

and at the very beginning with the 30WCF in the winchester 1894 there was no re;oaders smokeless propellant available.

The only "smokless" propellants available at the turn of the last century were "bulk" propellants for shotguns and a few, a very few pistol propellants.

AD

Sorry but that proprietary propellant you may have been waiting on is still not available. We’ve been waiting for 8 months since the original post. I hope you didn’t hold your breath all this time, I sure didn’t.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
The morons are back at it I see....
Why the hell can't they just leave good enough alone??
They'll have a cold day in hell before I buy one of those new fangled chamerings.

Don

Perhaps because the MORONS who run the gun companies need to have sales to keep their companies alive? Perhaps they would like to continue to employ the folks who make firearms for you and me?

You would prefer that they only offer what they have offered for the last 50 years, and since most hunters are getting up in years and don't need any of the "new fangled chamerings" (sic) their sales would go to zero. (Because we all know that all these new cartridges are "an answer to a question that was never asked")

And then there would be no more moronic companies selling firearms. Guess that would make you happy?

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
The morons are back at it I see....
Why the hell can't they just leave good enough alone??
They'll have a cold day in hell before I buy one of those new fangled chamerings.

Don

I thought the damn thread was over too. But it seems to just live on.

I say sack all the WSM, RSAUM, WSSM, and the Ruger short magnums.

The 375 Ruger is good, but I had enough catridges to begin with.

338 Win
358 Norma
9.3x64
300 H&H
300 Wby
340 WBy
257 Wby
7mm RUM
7mm Rem Mag
280
7x57
25-06
30-06
9.3x62
9.3x74R
7x65R
7x64
6.5x65R
257 Roberts

Ok, sack 'em all.

I agree, I killed my first deer in '55, and have not killed anything since that I could not have taken just as well with my dad's 1951 M70 in 270. But I have had, and still am having, a lot of fun with cartridges that were not dreamed of in the '50's.

And, to stay alive, the gun manufacturers NEED sales. If you don't want to buy sometheng new, no one is forcing you to. But dang it, don't badmouth the manufacturer's attempts to stay alive in a declining market. We NEED them!!

If I was Ruger or Remington, or anyone else I would work on getting some of the old but goodies back out, instead of coming up with crap like these new Ruger short magnums.

Ruger could sell #1's in 7x65R, 338 Lapua, 10.3x60R in the international would be a sweet one.

Not to mention the 9.3x64 in a Ruger M77.

Why hasn't Remington made a 358 Norma m700, or 9.3x62, or anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
If I was Ruger or Remington, or anyone else I would work on getting some of the old but goodies back out, instead of coming up with crap like these new Ruger short magnums.

I guess their professional marketing guru's see it differently than you do. Do you suppose they might have access to more data than you?

I was talking to my local big dealer and they won't even order a new caliber unless it is different enough to be something special (like the 375 Ruger).

I have talked to several industry dealer reps through the years. The goal is for a company to support a cartridge for a few years, something totally new and non-standard. Then after they sell 1500 rifles, they ditch it and move on to something new.

This is the reason Remington is selling 257 Weatherbys this year, and Ruger the 450 NE, 400 Jeffery's, 375 Ruger and 9.3x74R.

Sell a guy something totally different than he has had before.

He said the goal was to keep them excited about buying a new rifle, because it was diffrent enough from their other rifles.

I think their goal is to increase revenues and maximize profits. At least I certainly HOPE that is their goal, and I hope they are successful. Otherwise, they won't be in business very long.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
Hornadys new powder manufactuing department...

Dammit, it is funny, isn't it.

And possibly true.

The only problem I have with "new" cartridges...and in 1925 the 270 WCF was "new"...is that they sometimes displace out of the production run older cartridges that are also perfectly good.

The bottom line is that, speaking as a "Brit" if your gun makers go out of business it means less money from them to your American NRA and less defence of your right to keep and bear arms.

And sometimes, through all the rubbish emerges a truly great cartridge usually in the form of a factory legitimising a long favoured "wildcat" such as 35 Whelen, 8mm-06 - a superb cartridge IMHO, 338-06 and etc.

I tell you somthing I do not understand,
The new ruger RCMs come in a rifle with the great looking ruger banded front sight , and express type rear.
Well for your info they came out with a hawkey in 35 whelen this year , no sights.
I would love to have a 35 whelen in a hawkeye , with the nice looking sights.
I would work up a load with a 250 grain round nose using the front sight and a negc peep for the rear, And use that set up for really bad weather, then pop my 1X4 leupold on and use a spitzer for when the rain stops.
Some of you might say I would need to sight my rifle in again, But I don't think I would.
It might not be perfect but puting the scope back on would be darn close to the same point of impact , and for shooting Elk at 250 yards an inch one way or the other is not likly to make a difference.
...tj3006

"dem darn new cartridges"...Huh??..Oh well..in my book there has been no practical need(hunting) for any new cartridges since WW1(1914).. ...Now....if we are speaking of bullets..Yes, so much better bullets has been seen the daylight since then