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Absolutely true. It's really inexcusable. The very least manufactures can put an "accuracy guarantee" like Weatherby or many of the semi custom gun manufacturers. At that point manufactures would be holding themselves to a standard. I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever. Take care. smallfry | |||
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They can't make them fast enough and if you don't want it, someone else will. That unfortunately is the market for the big boys. Other smaller companies like Savage have been excelling in accuracy. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I have been pretty impressed with my recent Ruger purchases. $600 ruger 375 alaskan does the job as does the 30/06 that I have some custom work done too. You can buy a blaser to get the latest switch barrel, removable trigger and great accuracy. But barrels and scope mounts are not cheap. CZ big bores need to go to Wayne at AHR to become function - Ruger Alaskan is functional out of the box. You can buy cooper rifles pretty cheap relative to Blaser/mauser ect Tikka is great value. I have been more impressed by my tikka than my Sako. Sako shoots no where near what its MOA guaranty says it should - needed custom work - it shoots well enough for hunting. A $600 ruger alaskan out shoot a sako model 85. $300-$50 Ruger americans are super accurate and super ugly. Hate to say it but the low end rifles today are damn good and much better than high end offering. Maybe control round feed and wood stocks are not what they are cut out to be. Mike | |||
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I think the problem is the undereducated consumer who believes advertising and thinks "minute of deer" accuracy is OK. The current push in various types of business these days is to do things cheaply rather than to do it well or better. They don't seem to have trouble finding customers who accept their shoddy products/services. | |||
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The worst IMO is Kimber I have only had the pleasure of owning 2 that shot decent over the past 12 years. An 84M Classic in 7-08 but she is a picky little bitch and I had to work on a load fot it for a long time until it shot consistent 1 1/4" three shot groups at 100 yards The other is a K22 Classic in 22LR and it shoots pretty decent but again such as most 22LR rifles.....it is ammo subjective The others.....2 Both Kimber Montana's one was my brothers the other is currently mine Both shoot whatever ammo you want into 5" groups at 100 Not good and Kimber really couldn't care less if they tried ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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AMEN! Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. | |||
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When did Savage become a "small gun company"? velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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It is easy to pick any company's offerings to death if you look hard enough. Factory rifles are made to a price point and are mass produced. As a rule hunting rifles with thin barrels will group worse than heavier barreled target models. No manufacturer is immune to bedding problems even Savage. Factory barrels as a rule will not perform as well as custom barrels but that is what you are paying for. Ammo is what it is. Some good some bad and every barrel will have it's preferences. Rough tooled factory barrels will naturally be more finicky. If you want to get the most out of any fctory offering send it to someone like Koby or Echols and get them to put it right. Savage is a decent affordable option if you can put up with less than great fire control and ejection but it will never be in a class with a model 70. That's just my thoughts. Joe | |||
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I have to agree with the OP. With the exception of my old Remington 740 30/06 that shoots patterns instead of groups, I don't have any US made rifles that won't shoot MOA or better. Most have taken some considerable tweaking to get there though. But my last two rifle purchases were foreign made. One, a Zastava M70 in 375 H&H shoots good 1" groups with the only handloads I have tried in it. The action needs some smoothing but the accuracy is more than acceptable. My second is a Tikka T3 in 6.5 Swede. It is by far the nicest out of the box rifle I have owned. Great trigger, smooth bolt, feeds slick as snot and crazy accurate. It's not the nicest wood but the fit is very good. With the cheapest factory Federal ammo I could find, it was shooting nickel sized groups at 100 yds. Not sure I could improve upon that with hand loads. The US gunmakers could certainly take a lesson from Tikka! 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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There are a lot of variables and unknowns so I’m not sure anyone can really answer your question. Here are a few of my “opinions.” With 3 exceptions,…… a new Ruger # 1 A that is exceeding my accuracy expectations, <MOA,….. and an older Model 70 in .458 Win which is consistently MOA,….. and a Rem 700 Classic in 35 Whelen, also consistently MOA,……all my other rifles are Sako 85’s, A7’s, and Tikkas. I bought more Sako because of the accuracy of my 1st Tikka. My 7 Rem Mag, 30-06, 25-06 and .243 are all tack drivers and that’s important to me personally. None of this infers any superiority over any other rifle brand or model. Nor is this a plug for Sako. It isn’t. Savage and some others can do the same I’m sure. I bought Sako simply because they flat delivered, no other reason. I don’t agree that shoddy workmanship and poor rifle performance is the fault of the manufacturers. The blame lies with an apathetic shooting public that’s willing to accept poor production standards. If the rifle can hit the cardboard box at a hundred, they’re happy. When, and only when that public expects more, and demands better, will production standards improve. Same situation we had in the 60’s and 70’s when Japanese car quality far surpassed Chrysler, Ford and GM. When the American consumer demanded better, standards went up. Good thread Alf, not sure I’ve helped? 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .284. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. There,....fixed it for you Adam.  | |||
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Steyr.. If you want accuracy and fubction out of the box. They are butt ugly and they shoot great. I agree on the American offerings it's ridiculous. | |||
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Most of the poor accuracy in rifles has more to do with the ammo than the gun, in my opinion. I haven't seen very many off the shelf rifles that don't shoot very well with handloads. I used to shoot factory ammo with very good accuracy, but now it seems that accurate factory ammo is more the exception than the rule. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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I agree with ALF. I thought about my most accurate factory rifles and they are two Brownings built in Japan and one single Remington 700 in 260. I attribute that as much to the cartridge as the rifle. The rest I have had custom work performed on. My lone Kimber that would not shoot a 308 in less than 2" went bye bye. Same with that stupid Kimber 1911. I took it to a training class and the instructor looked at it and asked if I brought extra parts because they failed 3:1 over any other model. It failed and went bye bye as well. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Actually, I think the problem is the 'overeducated' consumer who believes every gun forum on the internet and thinks every rifle is an out of the box sub-MOA tack driver with the cheapest, optic, mount, and ammo at Walmart. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Reminds me of the same situation with automobiles in the 60's and 70's. As Boomy said, if you are selling everything you make there is not much incentive to improve. If/when hunters demand better, the domestic producers will up their game. BTW my Baco M70 FWT is the most accurate out of the box rifle I own but all of my rifles are American made so maybe I don't know what I'm missing. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I think task hit it on the head. Whether its cars, rifles, washing machines, or whores, they are going to do as little as they can get by on. Only when they start losing money are they gonna change. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Smaller, not small. Savage has a great niche with accuracy.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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 Today at the range. My buddy's Savage .223 Varmint Nite Mare 55 gr. bullets, brand new out of the box. First three shoots 1" at 50 yards next five shots 1/2" at 50 yards. Wind gusts up to 40 MPH.(9 power scope.)Rice bags rest.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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ALF ---- You lost me at off the shelf ammo. If you judge rifle quality and accuracy by the factory ammo performance then that is your perogative, I don't judge any one of my American rifles by that and never will. I reload all my ammo and work with the rifle until I find what it likes and and will shoot a one hole (3 or 5 shots touching each other) groups repeatedly when I do my job and that determines my opinion. If you want to work only with factory ammo I don't have a problem with that. Just the difference in how we judge rifles. I shoot all American rifles and have for many years, from Winchester Model 70's, Savage, Weatherby, Ruger. I load for hunting rifles for me, my son, grandson and great grandsons and we all are quite happy with them. Not saying I wont own a Forigh rifle, but I will still judge it by my reloads. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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I have not noticed any inaccurate rifles from Winchester, Remington or Ruger, even those ugly junky Savage bolt guns are cutting small holes in paper. Ive owned half a dozen Ruger Africans and they all shot and inch or better..Pre 64 Win. some claim won't shoot, but I never owned one that wouldn't shoot, sometimes a little tinkering is needed with any factory rifle. Even the many Savage 99s Ive owned shot well, if not I glassed bedded them..The few Ive had over the years that didn't shoot were in the 2 inch category so I took them to a gun show..but two inches is acceptable hunting accuracy for big game..I just happen to be an accuracy buff... Its not always the rifle that can't shoot. I'll stick with American guns, cars, and anything else that helps support our economy. but lots of American guns are farmed out or have construction in other countries, more and more over the years, Maybe that's the problem. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Fact is, MOA of deer is good enough for MILLIONS of gun owners. A lot of them can make a box of twenty last 10 years. There are a lot of very, very accurate USA made rifles and some of them are cheap and ugly, and some are expensive and ugly, and some are luxurious and beautiful. But...anything that is mass produced in huge quantities to a price point that will please the average Joe is going to suffer some quality control issues. To solve all the issues, is to raise the price and the average Joe will get M.O.D somewhere else. Tikka as stated has built a reputation and now you see more of them on the shelf than ever...and they are not as consistently accurate as they were. I have seen examples of this. I have also seen a lot more turn of the century 70s, 700s, Mark Vs, and Rugers that are true M.O.A. than previous - out of the box. If you don't want to risk getting a cull, spend the money on higher end models, or build oooor, design a better mouse trap. Ask Krieger, you can only build so many tight tolerance units in a given amount of time, and contracts have to be met. | |||
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Maybe I'm the odd man out here but I happen to really like American shootin irons, some cheap and some not so cheap. I like some foreign junk too but I mostly buy USA. I've been exceedingly lucky with my choices and have a pile of rifles that shoot at an inch and some way under that. Some do it with off the shelf ammo and some do it with handloads tailored to each rifle. I shoot thousands of rounds per year, summer and winter, 90% are my handloads. I am very happy with American weapons! | |||
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Why does everyone assume that the shooter is capable of moa groups? Yes many shooters are but many are not! I have been asked to develop handloads for several friends rifles. On three occasions, I developed sub moa loads and the friends insisted that the gun still shot bad...an improvement from previous 2 1/2-3 1/2 groups and then I went with them and shout multiple sub moa groups. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My nephew just was gifted his first deer rifle. A 6.5 Creedmoor chambered in a Ruger American predator model. Cheap 3x9 scope came with it. My brother put it on paper and my nephew how just turned 12 proceeded to shoot two .5" groups back to back. My brother has also shot some sub 1" groups with it. He is so impressed with it he is going to pick one up for himself. | |||
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Im beginning to think I've fallen into the not capable Some days yes.....more and more.....no ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Yup. My brother is a far better shot than I am. When I shoot a 1/2" group I'm tempted to also buy a lottery ticket, when he does, he wonders where things went wrong. | |||
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FN.. As in FN Herstal.. Uhh, isnt that technically Belgian Manufacturing??? I thought Euro rifles were supposed to be "the good stuff"..  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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It's a lot more enjoyable to plan a custom rifle, select components and a craftsman to build you one that nobody else has exactly like... | |||
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I am happy with my Winchesters and Weatherbys. Of course there are newer models that seem to have been conceived around a price point more than performance. I don't think this then refers to "American guns". There will always be better models and budget models and some budget models seem pretty darn good from feedback I've received from others. Just like cheap whisky, there is a place for it and some will not find the premium worth the difference or may not even notice the difference. Those of us on this board generally value performance more than many guys out there buying a rifle to shoot deer once a year from a stand at 60 yards. There is a product for those guys too. Some will spend more and buy a better product and still shoot one deer at 60 yards once a year. However my experience is that the new Model 70's (mine probably now 3 years old) and Weatherbys (MkV and Vanguards - Japanese of course) are just great thanks. Savages friends own shoot extremely well so much so that I've bought one, butt ugly as they are.... | |||
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Years ago I got a Kimber 22 rim fire. It was fantastic, and I gave it to my father, who loved it so much, he had in his car all the time. I bought one a few years ago, and it is nowhere near as good as the original one. I have given up on Some of the European manufacturers - all their new inventions are nothing but an abomination to me. Give me a normal turn bolt gun anytime. Just got a few rifles from Steyer - SSGs, and a few from Sako - TRGs, 85 and 7. All are great, and really knock spots from the general run of the mill American makers. Having said that, I have a Remington Sendero in 300 RUM. It is extremely accurate, and the velocity I am getting from it is higher than the 30-378 Weatherby??!! | |||
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Savage seems to come up frequently as rifles that shoot well out of the box. My grandson was given one in 223 Remington by another grandfather and put a cheap scope (less than $20 if I remember correctly). He came to the farm and wasn't getting that good groups with his chosen ammo. I let him try some of my handloads with which he shot a group well under 1 MOA. So the fault wasn't with the gun but with the ammo. So, if I can produce ammo in my basement that shoots very well in 3 different ARs, a Blaser and a Savage why can't ammo manufactures do it? Part of the problem is accepting poor ammo from the manufactures because they have the highest velocity or because it's said to be "accurate, deadly and dependable." One of my most accurate rifles is a Weatherby Deluxe model in 378 Weatherby which can do about 0.5 inches at 100 yards. With the Weatherby's free bore, I have no hope of seating bullets near the lands which leads me to believe that such manuvers are needed only because of such things as a sloppy chamber/throat, poor alighment of the chamber with the bore, etc. I've had a bunch of Thompson/Center Encores and Contenders. In probably 2 or 3 dozen barrels, I've only had 4 scoped barrels (that includes handguns) that wouldn't do MOA or less (usually quite a bit less). One was a 30/06 rifle barrel that T/C fixed. Another was a 30/06 rifle barrel I sold to someone who was OK with its "minute of deer" capabilities, one was a 375 H&H Magnum rifle barrel that only did 1.5 MOA and another is a 357 Herrett handgun barrel that only does 1.5 MOA. I'd put some of my $1,000 (scope included) Encores and Contenders up against a lot of $1,500 to $2,000 rifles. Yea, my Encores and Contenders shoot just as well as my Blasers. One of my favorites is a Tikka T3 CTR in 308 Winchester. Maybe I just got lucky (it's my first Tikka) but I've never had a gun that seems to be OK with just about anything reasonable I've given it. I even shot some loads with Winchester 147 gr. FMJ bullets (not well known for accuracy potential) in IMI brass loaded back in 1998. That load wasn't all that impressive in a National Match M1A I had but three went into about 0.4 inches at 100 yards with the Tikka. | |||
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Out of The Box accuracy. Hopefully others will find what I have known. Sauer, Mauser and Blaser! Simply amazing accuracy. Besides accuracy and dependability, the flexibility of A Sauer 404, Mauser M 03, and Blaser R8 put them in a class well ahead of traditional rifles. Multiple calibers all on the same platform. With my Mauser M 03 I have 404 Jeffery, 375 H&H, 308 Win, 6.5X55, 257 AI(aftermarket barrel), 22-250. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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If I would follow the Multi barrel concept with a Sauer 404 I would very carefully check if the aluminium system with their integrated mounts is what I want for regular changing of scopes in heavy calibers. You can get a steel action as upgrade. | |||
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I sure had a bad experience with a Kimber Montana in 270 WSM. Terrible accuracy, before I sent it back for them to fix it. They did nothing, said it was in spec. It continued to shoot 2"+ groups at best. Sold the thing and will never own another. I have had excellent results with Rem 700s, and Sako rifles, accuracy wise. NRA Patron member | |||
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I have just recently got my eyes open on Walter Gehmanns Mauser Model 66. I bought one last year in 6,5x68. The gun was made in 1969. Using only ironsights I maneged to get 5 shots within a small silvedollar at 150yards. That gun is thinbarreled. 125grain Nosler PAR at 3300 ft/sec. Now I want another Mauser 66 in .308win for plinking and regular range/targetshooting. They are not only good guns, but they were one of the most expensive projects the Mauser factory set their sails on. A very very underestimated gun. Overhere they cost next to nothing. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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I would have to add that the most accurate rifles out of the box are Steyrs, Sauers, and Tikkas. The Sauer 202 is probably as good as it gets, but on the heavy side for stalk hunting. The Tikkas are the best value. My son shoots a Tikka T-3 Lite in .308. Deadly accurate. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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I have to agree on Savages. I have two 111 package rifles, a 22-250 & .223. My coyote hunting buddy has one in .223. His seems to shoot MOA with whatever ammo he feeds it, even cheap military ball. My own will not but they are pretty darn close. With my hand loads they are sub-MOA. I can’t understand how Savage does it. Nothing about these rifles says quality or performance. Cheap plastic stock, grill paint bluing, corn cob rough action, I guess Savage spends the money where it counts…on the barrel and on the triggers. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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Well maybe I've been very lucky but of the five Winchester M70's I own they all have been pretty accurate. In fact today I took my Safari Express .375 H&H out and shot a group that measured less then 1/2 inch with factory Federal blue box 270gr soft points. I've done absolutely nothing to this rifle since buying it 4 or 5 years ago. I seriously doubt one of those ugly clunker Savage's or whatever else would do much better. The build quality and wood on this rifle is also very good. I do however have a .300 WM sporter that has about the worst piece of wood I've seen on a rifle but it still shoots decently. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Since most of my rifles are built on Mauser actions I am afraid I havent kept up on where "X" or "Y" factory rifle was built. Apparently the so-called FN Winchesters are assembled in Portugal??  Not sure I would really consider that an "American gun".. But I have read a lot of very good reviews from M-70 owners who seem plenty satisfied, and have been thinking a lot about getting one myself. Maybe not! Maybe what I need is just another cheap Weatherby Vanguard that is guaranteed to shoot..  You're bumming me out Alf.. I thought I was dialed in on the next rifle I wanted..AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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