Other than one Ruger M77 from 20 years ago, I haven't noticed any accuracy issues with American vs. non-American guns. The Remington 700 I just bought earlier this year (CDL in 270) is one of the most accurate guns I own. The accuracy with green box Remington and standard Federal factory ammo is just over an inch, and my handloads are half that. I'm immensely pleased with how it shoots. It's also supposed to be made during the "crappy" period of Remington. Though the polish maybe isn't as high as some made in the 80's or 90's, it's still better than 90% of rifles on the market.

The same can also be said for my Weatherby Mk V. It's a one inch gun at 200 yards if I do my part. As someone mentioned earlier, sometimes inaccurate rifles can be blamed to the person behind the trigger. I'm increasingly seeing people shoot like crap at the range. You gotta get out there and practice the skills!

For many buying a factory gun is very much like buying a old time Lucky packet ! Until you open it you don't really know whats inside and the problem is once it's opened you cant really give it back, because now it is deemed used. For some where licensing applies it is even more difficult because once you have decided on your buy you apply for a licence and now returning it is even more onerous.

Now having owned many guns over many years and hanging with guys and around places where guns are the rage I have come to realize there are what we can call "accurate" and "not so accurate" guns.

One sees model ranges come and go, some lamented and much sought after and some not so much
( more like good riddance because they did not meet expectation)

Like consumer reports on vehicle brands to avoid based on the likelihood of having to have it in the shop because of quality issues.

There are brands if you wish where the chances of coming up with a "bad buy" is greater than those where you are assured of a good buy each time.

For many I fear it really does not matter whether their rifle is capable of precision, they are happy if they manage to actually hit a pie plate target at 100 yards. ( if you don't believe simply wander over to my local gun range before hunting season ! The exercise will be a revelation in many many ways, sometimes scary to think that "that" will also be out there in the woods hunting when you are out there. Some having a bigger chance of shooting themselves or heaven forbid a fellow hunter than the game they are after )

But it does not just apply to rifles or ammo but optics as well.

One might be very happy with a set of binos or a scope until one day you get to pick up a really good piece of glass. When that day comes you will be spoilt and life will be soured forever because the you will have tasted from what we know as sweet water!

My point being simply this :

This is 2016 , we are at a time where access to knowledge it higher than it has ever been, we are supposed to be savvy and by all accounts producing a consumer item should not be an issue..... or are we perhaps expecting to much?

Its not like we are building the first car ever or the first wrist watch.

By now we should collectively have figured out how to produce a watch that actually keeps time or a car that actually lasts for the duration of what is expected from a car...... or then having a instrument capable of launching a projectile and having that projectile actually hit the target with some measure of precision ?

I think quality control on Remington has gone down the tubes. To balance that there are rifles like Tikka, Savage, the Vanguards that have fabulous accuracy at bargain prices. I haven't bought one, but I hear the newer (SC and later) Model 70s are very good too. The gap between bargain and semi-custom as far a price goes has gotten incredibly large though ..

Alf,

It absolutely has to do with the quality of the shooter because on any given day 50% of the shooters are likely to be below average.

There is way too much variability in shooter capability, way too limited of a sample size, and way too many uncontrolled variables to make any type of credible generalization.

Additionally, consider the percentage of inaccurate guns to accurate and the propensity for people to talk more about bad experiences than good. 1 out of 20 guns might be two MOA but people are 10 times more likely to complain about the 2 MOA gun then they are to praise the 1 1/4 gun.

See rule #10. If 5 people say Brand X sucks, did we talk to 95 other owners of Brand X.

Now if you want to to make an informed statement go buy 10 remingtons, 10 winchesters, 10 savages etc in say 308 win and go shoot them with high quality factory ammunition and you might be able to draw some limited conclusions.

Really quite surprised buy your statements given that you are usually so pedantic about technical/academic issues.

I have finally come to a conclusion on all this palaver! BITCH, BITCH, BITCH

While not impressed by their looks every Steyr-Mannlicher M Professional and MIII Professional I have owned have all shot consistently under 1/2 inch with factory ammo. These have all been in .270 and .30-06 but I do have one in 7x64 on the way and will see if it continues the trend

Ive seen more Blasers go South than any other rifle..I think Saeed will tell you the same thing..Walter denies it, but heck he is Walter, buy hey ya gotta love him, it bothers him not!

Kimber's do suck.

Lots of Blasers "Going South" ! How exactly ?
Dont know many guys who own Blasers, way to spendy for the average guy..... but having said that those that I have seen are super, super accurate ( precise) and if you have ever seen someone who can operate one on a speed shoot
( Charging buffalo event) there is nothing that remotely even comes close ! There are sequences where a shooter empties a mag and the last shot is done before the first shots case even hits the dirt !

quote:

Originally posted by Boxhead:
Kimber's do suck.

WOW...it`s a Chevy..

I'm not sure how expensive these European rifles are. I had two brand new Sako L61R's years ago and the cost me $89 each at the rod and gun club on Sembach AB in Germany. But I don't think you can get a used Sako L61R for anywhere near that price today! The Blazer, never seen one. What do those thing's cost anyway? I have a POS 700 ADL with a plastic stock. One of the worst shooting rifles I've ever owned. Had to re-do the entire bedding to get it to shoot. It shoot's very well now but I have no idea what factory ammo will do in it, never shot any! I think that 700 ADL was under $300. Can you get a Blazer, Sako or much of anything else for that money? For the money they get for most those Euro rifles, they better shoot.

But if you really want an American rifle that shoot's well right out of the box, find a used Savge 110 package deal and learn how to control a crappy trigger. Those things were super accurate!

I bough a mod 70 Feather weight some years ago and other than adjusting the trigger, haven't done a thing to it, shoot's more than well enough for hunting! It is the only factory rifle I've ever had I didn't fool with, I like round action's! But based on this rifle alone, I'd get another American made Winchester! But no new rifle's planned. Have several 700's, a 788 and a 03 Springfield sporterized. I never fooled with the Springfield either.

What kind of accuracy and quality would you expect from these factory rifles?

Remington 700 ADL with scope = $400
Ruger American = $325
Savage Axis = $330
Savage Axis with scope = $380
Browning Abolt III - $450
Tikka T3 = $530
Steyr Prohunter = $800
Kimber 84M Hunter = $850
Monntana American Standard = $1100
Sako A7 = $1100
Mauser M12 = $1400
Dakota 76 Classic = $4250

The answer is simple. You get what you pay for.

Would you complain because the $27,000 Impala won't perform anything close to the $65,000 Camero ZL1 unless you put a lot of time and money into it?

Of that list I would put my money on the Tikka as the best shooter with the most tolerance for factory ammo.

I think someone on here once said "If accuracy was the only reason to buy a gun, every gun I own would be a savage." I think that for 95% of shooting situations the rifle's shooting potential is almost irrelevant. My grandma killed a pile of deer at varying distances with her Remington 14, which is only capable of 3'' groups! There are a number of quality american made rifles that are on par or will out shoot their Euro/Japanese counterparts. Nosler, Cooper, Savage, Weatherby, all produce reliable and accurate rifles. If we want to make America great again we have to start by buying American products.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I would have to add that the most accurate rifles out of the box are Steyrs, Sauers, and Tikkas. The Sauer 202 is probably as good as it gets, but on the heavy side for stalk hunting. The Tikkas are the best value. My son shoots a Tikka T-3 Lite in .308. Deadly accurate.

You're forgetting about the plain old < $400 Savage bolt actions. Less than 1/2 the price of most you mentioned above.

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
If we want to make America great again we have to start by buying American products.

Believe me when I say,..... you have no idea how much I completely agree with your statement. All I ask is that what I receive show a reasonable amount of pride in workmanship - before the rifle reaches my hands. Some have, some haven't.

This thread is reminding me of why I shunned factory rifles and started building up Mausers several years ago in the first place.. Spend $1,300 and if you're lucky you might, MAYBE get something with pretty pedestrian walnut that shoots as well as a $350.00, push feed Savage with no floor plate and a Tupperware stock.. Friggin depressing..

European and Japanese rifles are generally better made and more accurate than the Remchester et al American rifles in my experience and that of rifle club mates, hunting buddies and the rest of the accumulated weight of the continuous vox populi that makes up a shooter's sporting life.

They are more expensive however.

I traded into a Ruger American in 308 and have been shocked at the accuracy I've been getting. It actually makes me mad that a rifle this cheap shoots so well.

My latest Winchester Model 70 on the other hand has been a nightmare.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Seriously, this is 2016 the age where one does not have to accept lemons or poor service !
if you buy a car or a washing machine or the steak at the restaurant sucks you give it back and demand a refund or a replacement !

My point being! Why do we have to accept rifles from mainly the American trade that are incapable of basic accuracy using off the shelf ammo ?

Two posts down there is a whole recipe book of how to make some or other 338 to actually shoot a group ? Really ? Why is it necessary for anyone to be spending time and money to make a rifle do what it's actually supposed to do ?

The other afternoon I was at the range where a local gun shop owner was trying to figure out why the brand new (FN) Winchester model 70 338 he sold to a customer would not group...... unless minute of orange and some is acceptable from this rifle ?

and I can go on and on, Rugers that I have briefly owned, the best they would do is 2 inches plus at 100 ? Granted there are shooters amongst them,but for the most are losing badly against euro guns and this is a sad state of affairs.

What is even more puzzling is that guns that once were slated as being the cheapest or the cheapest budget offerings are actually outshooting their more expensive counterparts ?

Another uncomfortable truth is too many American hunters happily shoot no better than minute of cantelope and think minute of orange is pretty damn good. This may be true other places but I can only speak for here.

I think part of the difference is that to be a shooter and especially a hunter in Europe you have to try much harder and lay out more cash than in a country like the US that has no gun licensing, allows hunting on public land and doesn't have long and drawn out hunter training systems.

In that respect we have fewer guns and therefore spend more on each.

I think that's why we are prepared to pay more and therefore get better made rifles.

And not to pound the point but we have no meaningful shooting proficiency tests for hunting licenses. That doesn't mean I think we need more regulation but it does result in an undemanding consumer.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
It's a lot more enjoyable to plan a custom rifle, select components and a craftsman to build you one that nobody else has exactly like...

It may be...... but it is stupid money thrown into a fire

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
It's a lot more enjoyable to plan a custom rifle, select components and a craftsman to build you one that nobody else has exactly like...

It may be...... but it is stupid money thrown into a fire

Ted: Part of me agrees with you right up to,....when the custom work is finished, if all you're holding is a rifle,....that's a pity because you missed the point.

Just sayin', that's all.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
And not to pound the point but we have no meaningful shooting proficiency tests for hunting licenses. That doesn't mean I think we need more regulation but it does result in an undemanding consumer.

I stress that this is not say that America doesn't produce some fantastic rifle, customs especially.

Rather than having no "one weekend a year" type hunters we have no "one weekend a year" type rifle manufacturers.

If only Tikka didn't produce such a fine rifle for the money, at Remchester money in other words, there would be no other budget rifles.

On the other hand the need to compete in the US market is said by some to be the ruination of Sako and Tikka as they had to change over to more mass marketing techniques in order to compete in the US.

Can't blame them, the US is a much bigger market than most of Europe combined, but a shame when you compare a M690 Tikka to a T3 or a Sako A7 to a 591.

Still seem to shoot though!

I dunno Alf. I've had 8 or 9 different Ruger M77 Mk ll SS and they all would shoot 1.5 moa or much better. Most of them shot consistently sub moa. Some were amazing . Most modern Ruger M77 Mk ll and Hawkeye accuracy problems are the magazine box . . This is very easily fixed with filing a little In the front and rear notch that the front hanger and trigger guard fit into. When the action screws are torqued the mag box should have just a little wiggle room. So you can actually rattle it slightly with a finger when the floor plate is open. If they are tight the action is torqued slightly and doesn't harmonicly vibrate correctly. It's an easy fix that takes less than 5 minutes for anyone to do.
My M77 Mk ll Hawkeye SS 6.5Creedmoor is consistently sub moa with factory ammo and with handloads is a consistent 0.3s rifle with best groups in the 0.2s.
The Savage Edge 223 That I had was consistently a 0.3s and better shooter with a variety of ammo. . And most Edge's and Axis's are sub moa with many of them being truly unbelievably accurate.
Most RAP and RAR rifles are sub moa or much better. Accurate enough to justify putting an optic on them that is truly top tier. . Some factory rifles do need to be "shot in" or "seasoned" many of them can be picked up cheap as the original owner only ran a couple boxes of ammo thru them , didn't like the accuracy, Claimed American gun makers were only making junk and sold them cheap. My Edge was like that. I snipped a coil off the trigger spring . Adjusted the lop to fit me , mounted a $32.00 no name 3-9×40 scope on it in cheap aluminium bases and rings. And within 100 rounds I was shooting 5shot groups at 100 yards in the 0.2"s. By around 200-300 rounds my 6.5 was in the 0.3"s. And that was using a cheap plastic mtm rifle cradle rest and a Nikon Pro Staff scope.

I won't discount riflesmade in other countries in any way. But I have had great success with modern American made rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
What kind of accuracy and quality would you expect from these factory rifles?

Remington 700 ADL with scope = $400
Ruger American = $325
Savage Axis = $330
Savage Axis with scope = $380
Browning Abolt III - $450
Tikka T3 = $530
Steyr Prohunter = $800
Kimber 84M Hunter = $850
Monntana American Standard = $1100
Sako A7 = $1100
Mauser M12 = $1400
Dakota 76 Classic = $4250

The answer is simple. You get what you pay for.

Would you complain because the $27,000 Impala won't perform anything close to the $65,000 Camero ZL1 unless you put a lot of time and money into it?

The problem with guns is that $350 ruger American might out shoot the Dakota.

If consumers want high end wood, craftsmanship, labor intensive hand fitting ect then you got to pay for it.

I think us guns are getting better and better in performance but they are getting to be mass marketed and mass produced.

I think it reflects the us hunting market. We are over gunned - we have many more quality guns out in circulation than there are hunters. The new marginal hunters is asking for a cheap tool and manufactures and big big retailers are giving him just that.

Mike

I don't have a complaint with the accuracy as much as i do with guns that just don't work properly. I have a long list. It is insane .

Of importance to me is to keep the gun makers in the USA, and keep our people working..Im a bit MADE IN AMERICA fan. I honestly believe Amarican made guns are the best available, just as I believe our custom gun builders are the best in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Of importance to me is to keep the gun makers in the USA, and keep our people working..Im a bit MADE IN AMERICA fan. I honestly believe Amarican made guns are the best available, just as I believe our custom gun builders are the best in the world.

+1

Having tried a fair bit of american made guns, I have to disagree.

Since I cant own heaps of custom rifles.. I cant disagree or agree.


I do feel however, there are more "one man shows" in the US, where as in Europe they mostly work in a company. So you will not see that many "custom gun builders". Mostly firms.

For my money I'll gladly take my Sako, Sauer, Beretta, etc., over current production Savage, Remington, Ruger, etc. I do like current production Winchesters, however. To my eye, European workmanship is in a different league.
Again, my comment doesn't include guns from American makers of custom, semi-custom rifles.

I am squarely straddling the fence on this issue. I can see how the OP could logically arrive at his decision. On the other hand, I have made the opposite decision. There is not a need I have that an American rifle can't fill. Beyond that American gun manufacturers have been stalwarts in helping maintain our 2A rights as we currently know them. I feel good about supporting American manufacturing too.

I am a big time Ruger man and have been ever since I bought my first 10/22 over 30 years ago. I was a Ruger fan when they had a reputation for inconsistency in their barrels. I never got burned, but it is inarguable that some bad barrels left Ruger's plants. Ruger reeled that problem in. It's rare that their standard and target Hawkeye rifles don't deliver MOA accuracy today. Ruger has long been known for delivering overbuilt extremely reliable guns. Ruger's current problems seem to deal with QC in different areas. My Ruger AR had to go back to the factory. Magazines wouldn't seat. It has been flawless since I got it back. My Hawkeye Predator 6.5 Creedmoor is frighteningly accurate. It has a slight burr on the bolt face though. My SP101 finish is rough. My Charger pistol and SR22 both had to be stripped down and cleaned to function properly. Ruger used to ship pistols that were ready right out of the box. The nice thing about Ruger is that they flat out deliver on their all-too-often needed customer service. It's pretty easy to find stories of Tikka customer service being unresponsive. Ruger American rifles are just ridiculously accurate in general. They'll generally shoot right there with a Tikka for less money. The American's plague is their crap magazines. I am sorely disappointed that Ruger hasn't fixed the issue. Call them with a magazine issue though and they'll ship one with almost now questions asked. They know they suffered some growing pains. Things will slow down for them now and I suspect they'll real in the pesky little issues. Bottom line is that if you want a dependable accurate rifle, Ruger will deliver that in their American or their Hawkeye. The American at a price European manufacturers can't touch. The Hawkeye can't be touched for bombproof toughness. I have A few 77/Hawkeye ultralights that serve me very well. I don't see buying a Ruger rifle over a Tikka as a gamble.

What about Remington? Remington has also had some well documented growing pains. I think they are leveling off pretty well now too. The $350 700 ADL is a bargain in a serviceable, accurate rifle. The other 700 variants, including my 223 SPS, get the job done too. I was piddling around the other day looking at custom rifles. I noticed a lot of them are built on Remington 700 actions. Savage hasn't really had any growing pains. They have been turning out freakishly accurate bargain priced rifles for decades. Right now I can go buy a Savage 10/11 combo gun with a functional Nikon scope for $450. With the $75 rebate, it'll be $375. I will put that up against a Tikka in accuracy and dependability. The Tikka similarly configured will set you back nearly twice that amount. The Tikka will feel and appear more refined, but it won't outperform that Savage. My 4 Savage rifles are my most accurate and least expensive.

So that's my take. Opposite the OPs.

My experience with European rifles - newer ones including Steyr and Blaser - is that they are incredibly accurate, right out of the box. But they are expensive.

The only American factory rifles I am interested in buying are Winchester Model 70s. They are much less expensive than their European counterparts, and I don't expect them to shoot as well without bedding work and trigger jobs.

I admit that I don't want or buy the lowest cost American options, such as Ruger or Savage, but I have heard that Savage rifles shoot lights out.

Mike, my best research shows me that Winchester 70 series rifles are assembled in Portugal from parts made in the USA.

Paul, I thought they were made in South Carolina these days.

In any case, I only own models that were produced in New Haven, Connecticut, in the old factory that is now closed.

Apart from one pre-64 model, mine were all new when I bought them!

Im with Trump, lets keep Americans working, buy America, I can fix about any factory gun with a little glass and inletting..but have not really had the need to..I've been shooting a lot of Ruger 77s African Model, the last couple of years and they have all shot accurately. The Rem 700s have set all manor of records for accuracy, The Win. 94 still holds the sales record,

I still like the old pre 64 win., the 0lder 99 Savage, and custom 98 Mausers built in America, We do have some of the best custom gun builders around, and more and more they are leaning toward English/African styling and I sure like that..

Anytime you buy a factory rifle its a crapshoot, I don't care if its made in Germany, Japan or the USA..Jap guns are too shiny, Germans over engineer all their guns, American guns can be awfully plain for the buck and have cheapened up thanks to the bean counters who have taken over the industry of which so many are out of touch and in bankruptsy, they all have plus and minuses. Winchester listened and has tried to return to pre 1964, maybe too little to late as they just keep going broke and selling out, mostly to foreign interprise, and that may be a problem with quality??

All that said, Im staying with American made if for no other reason than to support the millions of workers trying to keep the wolves away from their doors, and feed their familys.