quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]
This too is the reason handloaders can do so well with some rounds as the SAAMI pressures have been set lower to accommodate the first guns made for the round. Among them are the .257 Roberts, the 30-06, the 280 Remington, the 7 X 57 Mauser, the 8 x 57 Mauser and a host of others.
SAAMI specs are neither arbitrary nor their own. They are engineered data developed by gun makers.

Exactly my point. Don't try and tell me that Ruger or Remington or anyone else is reporting pressures that cannot be exceeded by a substantial margin. Do you think that if XYZ reports a maximum of 62,000 psi on ABC action and you run 65,000 or 70,000 that you are going to blow your mess all over the range? On what shot? 1st, 500th, 10,000th?
The bottom line is I like to experiment and push the envelope somewhat. Thats why all of my rifles are chambered for Ackley cartridges and I load them till they show signs of pressure and then back off till I feel the pressure and accuracy is acceptable. Thats why I have performance parts on my Harley and why I like fast cars and boats. If you disagree or want to color between the lines all the time then by all means stay on the porch with Rex and just have a ball.

If there's naivete showing here it's not on the part of Hot Core.

You are 100% correct for a change.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim White:
... What question about pressure? ... Did you ask a question about pressure? ...

Hey jimmy, Actually AIU asked - "Jackfish, how do you determine MAXIMUM?"

Then I posted, "Hey AIU, You beat me to it, but I was going to ask that of jimmy."

But I can understand why you would choose to skip over the issue.
---

However in the vast interest of those of us who are continuing to read this thread, I'll ask it more clearly.

jimmy, How do you determine when you have reached MAX with your AI cartridges?

I am expecting some HUGE grins on "my part" when(or if) you respond.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim White:
You are 100% correct for a change.

Wow....I'm so sorry....I've been out of sorts lately....ever since old rex took the cure for anal licking he's been on trial and I promised his mother I'd look after him. Even though she was such a bitch!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
jimmy, How do you determine when you have reached MAX with your AI cartridges?

Do a search on yourself and read up on PRE/CHE. Unless you have some pretty sophisticated laboratory equipment that works as well as anything.

I am expecting some HUGE grins on "my part" when(or if) you respond.

That fits my picture of you . A grinning idiot. jimmy

Here are some thoughts about estimating safe MAXIMUM pressure. Maybe this will get the thread back on track.

There are numerous variables that would lead to an overpressure condition. One of the main considerations is the hardness of the cartridge brass in the case head region. Full Hard brass has a yield stress of about 63 KSI and the pressure would have to exceed that value to cause yielding. Many of the modern calibers typically operate at 65 KSI, and very slight yielding occurs in the case head. Extractor dimpling and case head expansion are two of the results.

Primer flattening can occur at moderate pressures if the head space is a bit on the large side. At ignition the primer backs out and then is reinserted when the high pressure occurs. The primer cups are not nearly as hard as the case head and this process will flatten the primers.

To get loose primers, you have to be well above the yield stress of the brass. That would be considerably above say 63 KSI. Like I say, too many variables.

Here are some words of wisdom on pressure signs:

1. Primer cratering and flattening are not the best indicators of pressure. If the cartridge/chamber combination have a bit of headspace, this can make a primer look flatter. Some primers are harder than others. A weak firing pin spring or a poor fit of pin tip and hole can make a primer crater.
2. About the same time you feel the bolt handle a little harder to open, you will encounter marks on the brass, corresponding to ejector ports. This indicates for practical purposes you are a little too hot.
3. Brass starts to flow about 65,000 psi. Measuring expansion at the web is a more scientific way of doing it. Stop and back up the load a bit when the actual web of the extractor groove expands.
4. Loose primer pockets are quite a bit too much pressure. Don't confuse the area of the back of the case that expands with the thick web.
5. Mebbe not the best way, but it's served me well through many thousands of rounds and dozens of chamberings. I load at the range. Take 5 pieces of brass to load over and over. Starting at a safe level slowly work up [with the same 5 cases] until primer pockets loosen, STOP. Throw this brass away. Now with 5 new pieces, drop a grain or so and load/fire 5 times. If pockets are still sound you're working right at the top-end MAX for that brass, that powder, that bullet, that temp, etc. I know of no instance where this wouldn't be safe.
6. Primer pocket loosening is the best way that I know of to catch case-head expansion - with a hand seating tool one can often feel expansion before one can measure with a caliper. Plus case heads are not round.
7. I'm not a proponent of shooting max, but one must KNOW where it is, and some guns shoot best there.
8. Primer flattening has never been much good for me. Due to various machining differences some brands of action will experience brass failure prior to reaching this point.
9. Sticky bolt at BOTTOM of throw will be coupled with shiny deformed or scraped spots somewhere on case-head - too hot.
10. Sticky bolt at TOP of throw is another matter, could be due to tapered factory case, lack of lube on primary extraction ramp, or in the case of a custom action without ejector could be a sign of REALLY high pressure. No gun I've heard of will run this hot without very short primer pocket life.
11. This is word-for-word out of the Sinclair Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook, a $13.00 investment and a lot of great info. Signs of excessive pressure:

1) Primers cratering severely or flowing back around the firing pin hole
2) Blown out primers
3) Gas leakage around primer, pitting on bolt face
4) Enlarged primer pocket
5) Case head expansion
6) Shortened case life
7) Ejector or extractor marks clearly visible on the case head
8) New cases are hard to extract after firing

Yeah jimmy, just like your other responses concerning AIs, "I knew" you didn't know anything factual about them.

And yet you choose to reveal your lack of knowledge by berating posts from those of us that provided pertinent information based on vast first-hand experience with many Wildcats. The people that actually have Wildcat experience understand.

Congratulations for opening your mouth and letting everyone know - you don't have a clue. A true sign of a Rookie.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Yeah jimmy, just like your other responses concerning AIs, "I knew" you didn't know anything factual about them.

And yet you choose to reveal your lack of knowledge by berating posts from those of us that provided pertinent information based on vast first-hand experience with many Wildcats. The people that actually have Wildcat experience understand.

Congratulations for opening your mouth and letting everyone know - you don't have a clue. A true sign of a Rookie.

Look moron, I've been reloading for over 40 years and I haven't blown my ass up yet so I guess I do OK at reading pressure signs. If you find entertainment in the fact that I didn't write a long detailed procedure like Ackley Improved User did (which was excellent by the way) then I am glad I brightened your dull little existance. Had I taken the time to respond in depth as AIU did, your snotty, childish and totally predictable response would have been the same. I really don't care what you have to say about me or Ackley Improved cartridges or anything else for that matter. There are a lot of reloaders here whose opinions I value. There are a lot of reloaders here that I have learned from. You are not among those sage individuals. You're answers to anything "Ackley" are predictable and after reading them for the last 5 years, just plain boring. You have absolutely no sense of humor and the personality of a pit bull. Why don't you just leave me alone and I will extend you the same courtesy. jimmy

Hey jimmy, I see you still don't have a clue about telling Pressure. I'm not a bit surprised.

And now you want "me" to leave you alone. Sounds like a fine idea to me. Just remember "you" are the one that started it when you ripped my initial post. As you realize, I'm just able to return it better than you can take it.

Yes jimmy, the truth can hurt a person who wades into a discussion belittleing his betters. Now everyone on this thread knows you are simply a vulgar unknowing Rookie.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey jimmy, I see you still don't have a clue about telling Pressure. I'm not a bit surprised.

I know as much about pressure as the next person. I'm not a bit surprised by your totally predictable answer either.

And now you want "me" to leave you alone. Sounds like a fine idea to me. Just remember "you" are the one that started it when you ripped my initial post. As you realize, I'm just able to return it better than you can take it.

Yeah right. Dream on little man.

Yes jimmy, the truth can hurt a person who wades into a discussion belittleing his betters. Now everyone on this thread knows you are simply a vulgar unknowing Rookie.

And everybody knows what a petty, vindictive asshole you are. Belittleing my betters? Don't flatter yourself puke. I know you understand the PRE/CHE. Do you understand the F.O.A.D?
I have no intention of continuing this with you on here as I'm sure everyone is getting a little tired of it. If you care to discuss it further send me a PM as I will not use up any more space here trading insults with an imbecile the likes of you. jimmy

GOOD NIGHT "JOHN BOY"

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey jimmy, I see you still don't have a clue about telling Pressure. I'm not a bit surprised.

And now you want "me" to leave you alone. Sounds like a fine idea to me. Just remember "you" are the one that started it when you ripped my initial post. As you realize, I'm just able to return it better than you can take it.

Yes jimmy, the truth can hurt a person who wades into a discussion belittleing his betters. Now everyone on this thread knows you are simply a vulgar unknowing Rookie.

Hey, hot core,
Maybe you could educate the rest of of us dumb asses,as to how do you determine pressure on your SAMMI cartridges? Do you have any pressure barrels? Or do you just do as the rest of us do, checking case head expansion, primer pockets, case life, or what? Who appointed you as the expert on this board? I check mine just as Jimmy stated and in 50+ years of reloading haven't done much more than pierce a primer here or there.
And just for your information Jimmy ain't a rookie, Jimmy and I go back 50 or more years and i've seen Jimmy in action, including being California class A singles champion at registered trap and shooting himself back to the 27 yard line in less than a year. And while this doesn't have much to do with the business at hand, it does apply. And while i'm at it don't bet he won't whip your ass with a hand gun, as he was on the pistol team at the 4 Queens casino in Vegas.And one National title at Jackson, Ms. You really owe Jimmy an apology for your derogetory statments.
Stepchild

Good Night,
Grampa.

Stepchild

The Gibbs line is much-maligned and badmouthed. For example it is often stated that Rocky loaded to very high pressues and made unverified velocity claims. Both these assertions are false. He built and used his own poressure gun, and his velocities were measured at Speer Bullets. IMO, the Gibbs designs are the best of the blown-out '06 cartridges, IF one wants to go to the trouble of making the cases!

This involves putting a "false shoulder" on the cases before fire-forming them, (or starting with a case that has a larger neck, so headspace can be set correctly with the sizing die), as the entire Gibbs shoulder is moved forward. So, one cannot just shoot factory ammo and get the improved case, as you can with the Ackley line. Some people just seat the bullet out to engage the rifling, hoping that this will hold the head against the bolt face with enough force to permit safe fire-forming, but this method entails a certain amount of risk.....

Gibbs design rounds have been made over the years in calibers from 6mm all the way through .358". I believe Rocky himself made them all the wat up through .338. Actually. I see no reason why the basic Gibbs case could not be used for even a version of the .400 Whelen, as the shoulder diameter is .454", sufficient for headspacing even a .40 caliber.

I think a .338 Gibbs could come very close to equalling the .338 Winchester, but all the Gibbs cartridges seem to need at least a 26" barrel.

quote:

I think a .338 Gibbs could come very close to equalling the .338 Winchester, but all the Gibbs cartridges seem to need at least a 26" barrel.

Eldeguello, the standard 338-06 already comes close to equaling the 338 Win Mag.

The Gibbs cartridges I agree are the best of the "improved" rounds if one wishes to make the brass which isn't really that difficult. Just start with 35 Whelen cases and size to .30 Gibbs and fireform, Yes....one cannot fire regular 30-06 rounds in the Gibbs chamber but at least one has closed the gap between the 30-06 and the 300 Magnums. That said the gap isn't large in the first place however!!!!!

Please don't forget that Gibbs measured his barrels from the end of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet of a loaded round in the chamber......making his barrels about three inches longer than anyone els's. He also used "front ignition" being a very ingenious fellah.....I'm not sure if this gained any velocity but it's possible.....

While the so called "improved" cases from Ackley and Gibbs do offer advantages it's still the case that (almost everyone) considers them miniscule in nature and still not worth the effort and cost of dies and custom chamberings.

quote:

While the so called "improved" cases from Ackley and Gibbs do offer advantages it's still the case that (almost everyone) considers them miniscule in nature and still not worth the effort and cost of dies and custom chamberings.

Neither the .223 Rem AI or the .338-06AI that RW Hart & Sons built for me cost one penny more to chamber vs a non-AI cartridge. Another AI myth debunked. And yes, some die manufacturers charge less for the more popular chamberings than those less favored, but that goes for loads of non AI cartridges as well.

No one has ever had to crawl through the black hole of Calcutta to get a semi-custom AI rifle built if he goes to a first class gunsmith who has thousands of AI guns under his belt. I found dealing with Bobby Hart virtually effortless, pleasant experience. If I ever decide I would like another semi-custom rifle built and an AI chambering was in the cards I would not hesitate to have Hart do it again.

quote:

Neither the .223 Rem AI or the .338-06AI that RW Hart & Sons built for me cost one penny more to chamber vs a non-AI cartridge.

This is true and I stand corrected......I was referring (or meant to) those that already had an existing chamber and wanted to open it to the AI version....this is a "C Note" or two......

Dang, you mean my 25/35 AI is only going 100 fps faster then my plain 25/35? I didnt know my chronograph was that far off!

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
Dang, you mean my 25/35 AI is only going 100 fps faster then my plain 25/35? I didnt know my chronograph was that far off!

What pressure are you loading it to?

I'm glad you asked!
I do have access to a strain guage. Both my rifles are re-barreled marlins, the 25/35 is 22" the AI is 24", so take that into consideration. I use 30-30 brass for both also. Using 42,000 psi as the max load, as is 30-30 itself, the 25/35 does a little over 2300 fps, the AI 2700 fps. Trying to go much above the 42,000 psi level, the lever will start to stick, even though the rifle itself can handle much higher pressure ( 307 win, 375 win, case in point) The brass is actually the weak link here. Switching to cases made from 375 win brass, higher vel are possible before any stickyness happens. The 30-30 cased AI family benifits from improving over the originals.
Now here's another one. I have a 24" barreled 264 mag, throat opened up to seat 120 noslers out to the base of the neck, a 6.5 Gibbs likewise. The Gibbs has a 27" Lilja tube, both have the same 1-9 twist rate. Useing 64,000 psi as a max load number, the 264 has all it can do to break 3250 fps, although very accurate, and has killed plenty of game for me. The Gibbs does 3430 fps with the same pressure. Dropping a couple grains gives me 3375 fps and cases that have been shot 10-12 times with no problems. I've never got more then 5-6 loadings from my 264 brass. The lilja tube is VERY smooth, never fouls, while the 264 looks like a copper mine after 5-6 shots, might be some of the difference, but still one of those head scratchers. I just barreled an old 7 mag with a heavy 30" tube in 264 mag, just to see what that will do. I hope it makes a good long range yote gun for me.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Neither the .223 Rem AI or the .338-06AI that RW Hart & Sons built for me cost one penny more to chamber vs a non-AI cartridge.

This is true and I stand corrected......I was referring (or meant to) those that already had an existing chamber and wanted to open it to the AI version....this is a "C Note" or two......

Understood Vapodog. But the title of this thread is "I need some info on REPLACING a barrel with an Ackley." My comment from my experience was directed toward Magnum 61's original question.

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
I'm glad you asked!
I do have access to a strain guage. Both my rifles are re-barreled marlins, the 25/35 is 22" the AI is 24", so take that into consideration. I use 30-30 brass for both also. Using 42,000 psi as the max load, as is 30-30 itself, the 25/35 does a little over 2300 fps, the AI 2700 fps. Trying to go much above the 42,000 psi level, the lever will start to stick, even though the rifle itself can handle much higher pressure ( 307 win, 375 win, case in point) The brass is actually the weak link here. Switching to cases made from 375 win brass, higher vel are possible before any stickyness happens. The 30-30 cased AI family benifits from improving over the originals.
Now here's another one. I have a 24" barreled 264 mag, throat opened up to seat 120 noslers out to the base of the neck, a 6.5 Gibbs likewise. The Gibbs has a 27" Lilja tube, both have the same 1-9 twist rate. Useing 64,000 psi as a max load number, the 264 has all it can do to break 3250 fps, although very accurate, and has killed plenty of game for me. The Gibbs does 3430 fps with the same pressure. Dropping a couple grains gives me 3375 fps and cases that have been shot 10-12 times with no problems. I've never got more then 5-6 loadings from my 264 brass. The lilja tube is VERY smooth, never fouls, while the 264 looks like a copper mine after 5-6 shots, might be some of the difference, but still one of those head scratchers. I just barreled an old 7 mag with a heavy 30" tube in 264 mag, just to see what that will do. I hope it makes a good long range yote gun for me.

TSJ,
Thank you for your post, it's very refreshing to see someone who actually has something positive to post on this subject other than unknowing armchair ballisticians.
Shame on the coyotes.
I personally don't care if it says Gibbs, Ackley, Kilbourn or whatever on the barrel, experimentation is where it's at with me.
I happened to choose Ackley's because of the ease of case forming and why so many people make such a production out of fireforming is beyond me?Cream of Wheat should be in a bowl with milk on it not in a rifle barrel.YMMV
When I found out how accurate my fireforming loads were I stopped right there and went to hunting, killing antelope, Mule Deer, Whitetails or whatever, just like I had good sence.
Thanks Again


Stepchild

TSJ,
Take notice that the armchair ballisticians, quickload experts,etc. haven't stuck their noses out of their holes since your post.
Experience Matters, chin music doesn't.

Stepchild

I have a friend whose an expert witness for several gun companies. The strain gauge was a tax write off for him!
When I go to a gunshow I look for part boxes, or old boxes of bullets cheap, thats what I use for my fireform loads. I mostly just shoot rocks, practice shoot/load from the shoulder ect while fireforming.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
What is the big deal about fireforming a Gibbs compared to the Ackely and I have hard time seeing that the Ackley is in the same ball-park for velocity than the Gibbs is, can someone explain this.

The big deal is that you can go down to any Walmart, buy 280 Rem ammo and shoot it in your 280AI. (if it was chambered properly) You can hunt with this factory ammo, with insignificant losses in accuracy and velocity, versus your handloads in the improved cases.

This might be a consideration if you go out of town on a hunt and leave all your ammo at home?????



Things are slightly more complicated with the Gibbs version of the cartridge. You can see that the entire shoulder is moved forward on the Gibbs case in your photo. Actually, that is what makes the cartridge attractive to me and I assume you also. The relocated shoulder allows the case to hold quite a bit more powder. It also significantly changes headspace dimensions. A factory loaded cartridge can not be fired in the Gibbs chamber as it has excessive headspace in that chamber. Hence my earlier suggestion that you use cases from a larger caliber and neck them down to form a "false shoulder". This will give a place for the brass to headspace against in the Gibbs chamber.

First I admit to being a Gibbs fan & have successfully firefored from .280 rem loaded ammo if the bullet was seated out to contact the rifling FIRMLY. No false shoulder needed if good contact is made this method should be used with an undersized expander ball to give add neck tension.
Second my assumption is that we are reloaders here which means we don' use factory loads, plus if a std load is fired in an improved chamber the point of impact will be changed by a great deal so just grabbing a box on the way seldom works.

Wile i haven't done the 280 imp i have done the 250-3000,22-250,257roberts and the 7x57imp in some the improvement does wonders.But the case's have lived longer than the parents have.So if you want to have a 280imp go for i think you will have a great time.Good Luck

he 7mm Gibbs is about equal to the 7mm Rem. Mag., but uses about 10 grains less powder to do the same work.

I've been reading this post, mostly for laughs. There are a few former Ackley users that got tired of fireforming, and it seems apparent that a few chiming in have never actually owned an Ackley cartridge.

Handloaders are some of the most opinionated humans on the planet, including me. That's why this and other forums like this are so interesting. What I don't understand is all the bickering and childish name calling.

I built a 7-08AI after reading an article by Layne Simpson about his 7mmGLC (Simpson's Good Little Cartridge). I've had good luck with my 7mmRemMag and two 7mm-08s, and thought I would act out on a wild hair and built an Ackley. Shilen chambered it in a stainless 22" match barrel for my 7mmGLC and it came back engraved, "7mm-08 Ackley Improved."

I wasn't trying to reach 7mmRemMag velocities with it (since I had a 7mmRemMag), but I was interested to see if I could reach the published factory velocities claimed with 24" barrels in my 22" barrel. There are fast barrels and slow barrels. My 11 twist barrel must be a fast one, since I have no trouble exceeding 2860fps with 140gr bullets, even though my barrel is 2" shorter. With 50.0gr of IMR 4350, IMR4831, or H380, 2950fps+ is easy to reach without cratered or flattened primers, stiff bolt lift, opening up primer pockets, or brass flow into the the ejector hole. I have pushed the envelope with H414 and reached 3075fps on the Oehler 35, but accuracy is better with the previously mentioned loads between 2950fps and 3000fps. Anyone on this forum can argue with my Oehler or call me an idiot for building this rifle, but I love it. It is extremely accurate and fun to shoot.

As for fireforming, I quickly learned that my fireforming loads were as accurate as my full power loads. Granted, they hit the target a little lower, but I know how much lower and a deer out to 250 yards won't notice the difference and will be just as dead. Hence, I hunt with my fireforming loads, as well.

It didn't cost any more to build the rifle with an Ackley chamber, I picked up my Redding dies at a gun show for $38.00, feeding is a non-issue, and it does what I want without hammering the bolt lugs as much as a standard cartridge, so I'm a happy camper. As a bonus, I don't remember the last time I had to trim cases.

I can understand where some shooters haven't had as pleasant experience with Ackley cartridges as me, and I value their input because I believe them. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I wouldn't even consider giving up this rifle.

If someone thinks they want an Ackley, they should try one.

Fireforming is not at all necessary to produce 280AI loads since 280AI brass is available from Nosler.Nosler also has reloading data for the 280AI on their site.I just purchased a 280AI myself,and loading ammunition is just as easy as with other cartridges.

Since you already have a 300 Mag, I would just re-barrel with another good 270 Win barrel.

A lot less drama. No muss no fuss.

Shoot Federal High Energy or Hornady Light Magnum, if it makes you feel better.