Wstrenhunter:
Yes we did and we did it on advice from the chief ballistician at Somchem !
We did Duplex loads worked out by Somchem.

Initially we could get powder from Norma and Rottweill ( RWS) but that soon dried up and we were stuck with Somchem. As the years progressed Somchem expanded their range and it was much easier.

Alfs spot on, it can happen and will happen, but with less frequency than yesteryear I think?? If I had only Rem RN Corelokts, and WW Power POints to hunt with the resto of life, I would feel confident, with mostly two holes in game and lots of internal damage without any fairlures, not to say one wouldn't happen down the road, its possible for sure..

I feel the same way about Nosler partitions, Nosler Accubonds, GS Customs, Woodleighs, A-frames, and North Fork bullets. Folks that don't care for these bullets are nuts!

However, in reality,this bullet failure conversation that ruled most campfire conversation for many years, and legitimately, is no longer credible, it just intertaining.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Wstrenhunter:
Yes we did and we did it on advice from the chief ballistician at Somchem !
We did Duplex loads worked out by Somchem.

Initially we could get powder from Norma and Rottweill ( RWS) but that soon dried up and we were stuck with Somchem. As the years progressed Somchem expanded their range and it was much easier.

Well, you're obviously still alive. That's a good thing. I can understand the need, powder selection wasnt the same back then as it is now. And at least you had expert advice. Not a practice I would encourage to budding reloaders though.

This thread almost sounds like it should be about microwave ovens. Remember? For decades and decades, fire, gas, and electric ranges did a fine job. And still do to this day. Then, one day we bring home one of those new fangled doo dads that's supposed to cook stuff in a few minutes using radio waves or something. And a few days later, we are wondering how we ever got along without one...

And oh, yeah. .. there are a bunch of folks still around,who like to go out into the woods or maybe just the back yard and cook all sorts of delicious stuff over (gasp!) an open fire. Maybe these are the cast bullet guys.

So who has hunted with one of these ?
9mm Para cast bullet in a empty fired case, run through a Cast bullet sizer die with lots of lube then loaded in a 375 H&H.

Killed me a Rowland Ward Class 31 inch Waterbuck with one of these.

That is very cool. How much does the bullet with "jacket" weigh?

205 gr average
We aslo shot a lot of cast bullets !
My standard load on the 375 was 60 gr of R200 behind a 250 gr gas checked 250 gr hard cast FN bullet. No recoil whatsoever and very accurate.
This was my "plains game" rifle and I shot many many animals with this combo.

Alf,
Was that a "premium" 9mm empty case or just a plain old empty 9mm case?
Most of my hunting again this year will be with a "premium" Cast bullet. That means somebody else cast it and I bought it instead of me casting it from my bucket of wheel weights. I hope my aim is "premium" as well. I have not failed yet but I am certainly the weak link in the system.

Fury01:

Yep this was high end shit ! Ken Taylor cast the bullets, he had a outfit called Taylor Made Bullets !

Did you recover bullets or were they all pass throughs?

For the record I have killed far more game with Sierra bullets than premium bullets, easily 100 to one. I've had great success with Sierra's and have only recovered 1, all others were pass throughs. Many Elk and Mule Deer, Blacktailed Deer, Whitetailed Deer, Antelope, Bighorn Sheep, Mountain Goat, hogs, Wildebeest, Impala, Blesbok, Warthog, Kudu, Zebra, Bushbuck and on and on, mostly with a 30/06 and 257 Rob as well as .338 win mag, .243 and .284 and a few others.

The cases separate from the cast bullet and on smaller stuff like impala it will shoot through.

It would be easier if there was a solid definition of "premium" and "need".

I guess to those who prefer to use standard (cup and core) and only use the "premiums" only when needed, carry both when hunting! Not recomended, logical, or practical, but then they can keep a clear conscience and "not" use a Premium when not needed!!!!! memtb

Im just being a provocateur here !

I do not know where one would place a Barnes TSX on the "premium scale" but this is what I use most often !


The reason is simple I have awesome load combinations with them in various calibers, they are affordable and most important I have access to them !

Accessibility where I live is a problem.

Alf, This is a "Totally" unbiased opinion, but IMHO, they would be placed at #1 !!!!! . memtb

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
So who has hunted with one of these ?
9mm Para cast bullet in a empty fired case, run through a Cast bullet sizer die with lots of lube then loaded in a 375 H&H.

Killed me a Rowland Ward Class 31 inch Waterbuck with one of these.

Why would you want to?

Because this is what you do when there are no bullets to be had !
One plus point in all of this was we bought high end euro and english rifles for pennies because there was no ammo for them !

Wah, Wah, Wah!!!!!!!!!!!

If a hunter is satisfied with the results they are getting from the bullet(s) of their choice, why does it matter to the rest of us???????

I don't necessarily agee with Alf on that score, but I sure don't disagree. I guess my final opine is I really like the super premiums, but just can't count some of the old bullets out..and Ive had such good results with Rem Core lokts and WW Power points that I'm totally confident in them..

BUT, my favorite bullets of all time are the Nosler Partition and lately the Accubonds, GS Customs, and Woodleighs, in no particular order. these are all premiums!!

Guess this old discussion or argument, depending who your dealing with will go on until the end of time or someone says which is the better rifle the 270 or 30-06, that will always take precident over all subjects.

Alf- What is a good brass cleaner for the H&H once you've shot a few rounds of 205gr Para through it?

Never understood how reliable expansion and penetration through hide, bone, and muscle into vitals, could somehow be a "problem", or at the very least, somehow undesirable.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Im just being a provocateur here !

I do not know where one would place a Barnes TSX on the "premium scale" but this is what I use most often !


The reason is simple I have awesome load combinations with them in various calibers, they are affordable and most important I have access to them !

Accessibility where I live is a problem.

+1.
All the fancy, Super Whiz Bang bullets may work. And they may work better than the Barnes. But I doubt it. However Barnes TSX bullets can be found in many places . Where as GSC, CEB, Lehigh, North Fork, ect can not. Speer, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra and Barnes and sometimes Swift populate dealers shelves. And recently unfortunately Berger bullets.
Tho bullets can be ordered. Alot of time I don't have time to wait. Other than certain specialty bullets like the 144 gr fmjbt Lapua. Most of my bullets I get locally.

I will just add to this that during WW2 and ammo was not to be had except on the black market, and that was military hard nose 30-06, I recall it was 172 grs. and whatever velocity. Dad bought a lot of it, and we ground the noses off to the lead core and hunted deer and elk with them...It, in some cases, came apart like a bomb and killed real well, sometimes it didn't and the chase was on..We boys never lost a deer, but we sure as hell learned to track and paid attention to the old men who knew how to track as well as anyone of earth, we learned out of desperation. Those bullets (ammo)did not work on elk, only head shots were taken.

sdfaa BTW those tracking lessons paid off big time in that finding cattle on the 75,000 acre ranch was much easier in that big rough rimrock country of the big bend of Texas. and later in live I made extra money teaching tracking for Law enforcement organizations.

The advent of good bullets has pretty much made tracking a lost art, and most recoverys are made by blood trails these days.

I agree with all who have asserted that real premium bullets have lead.

The reason I started reloading was the only factory ammunition I could find locally was Federal "Premium" loaded with Partitions.

It was an epiphany was when I found out I could get 100 Partition bullets for the same price of 1 box loaded!

My interest in firearms would have never grown had it not been for reloading. Most of my hunting buddies don't reload and they hit the range once a year and fire ~5 rounds with their hunting rifles and call it good if it's "still on."

I like spending my time at the reloading bench and practicing at the range from different positions/yardages and I wouldn't be able to do that if I was spending $25/box let alone $50. Perhaps Nosler Ballistic Tips are not "premium," but I use those and Accubonds quite a bit and they've done just fine - core lokts are a great "87 octane" bullet, too.

Now if I didn't reload I might choose a cheaper box of factory stuff if it meant I could practice more, but because of reloading I don't mind buying premium bullets and tailoring them to the rifle.

Just wondering whay bullet's Bell used? Anyone know?

I think it was FMJ and no soft points. No clue on the profile of the bullet, but I'm sure someone here knows exactly.

Bell's use of the 7x57 has been hashed out before on AR.

Problem is he had not one but a whole slew of 7x57's and they were not all no 1's but some were No2's and some were procured after his hunting days in Africa was done. The Rigby Ledgers show the timeline of his rifle procurement from them.

The no 1 was regulated for a 173 gr RN cupro nickel FMJ bullet and it is with this that he hunted elephant. The fallacy in the legend is that he hunted all his Elephant with the 7x57 which off course is not true. He used a multiple of calibers common to the time.

In my opinion, any good shot could perform, under the same set of circumstances, what Bell did..Ive seen this statement more or less over the years in gun magazines, they usually added with nerves of steel, or not by a lesser man, I think that's a bit over the top unless your looking for a attaboy award in journalism..but I have little doubt as to the correctness of the statement..I know more than a few old timers that could have duplicated his feats to one degree or another.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
In my opinion, any good shot could perform, under the same set of circumstances, what Bell did..Ive seen this statement more or less over the years in gun magazines, they usually added with nerves of steel, or not by a lesser man, I think that's a bit over the top unless your looking for a attaboy award in journalism..but I have little doubt as to the correctness of the statement..I know more than a few old timers that could have duplicated his feats to one degree or another.

I would totally agree in terms of skill of the shot. Having read and re-read "Bell Of Africa", detailing his life from a boy to his death, I feel it would be hard, but not impossible, to find someone today who had the guts and fortitude that Bell had. We must remember his life in Africa was no pampered, PH guided affair with return back to ones own country only a day or so flight away.

So although probably many could duplicate his shooting skill, it would be much more difficult today to find someone who could retain that shooting skill for long periods of time under the conditions that Bell lived and hunted in.
Like anything in history it is impossible to compare with modern times, you can't just take a modern hunter and plonk him back into Bell's era. Bell didn't just suddenly become the great elephant hunter, his upbringing in the times he lived from a baby to the boy he was when he got to Africa played the biggest part.

Good to debate but has no resolution.

I dug up this from my past notes on Bell.

Bell and the 7x57:

A summary of notes collected over time from various sources and then reading and comparing the 3 books written by him on his African hunting.

Of special reference a article by Gregor Woods in Magnum Magazine 1999 on the subject of his 7x57 use.

The common errors and assumptions regarding the legend of “Bell and his use of the 7x57”.

1. Bell did not perpetuate or claim the 7x57 was good for elephant
hunting per se, it would appear to be an assumption perpetuated by others and then reproduced over and over in print in various sources . Example for instance : Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes.

Each time anyone brings up the topic of the 7x57 whether in writing or discussion Bell’s name is thrown in as well.

What is known is that he preferred other smaller bore high velocity cartridges compared to what was traditionally used at the time.

He also used the 6.5 x54 Mannlicher for this purpose. In 1909 he buys a Dan’l Frazer Mannlicher which he uses whilst hunting the Lado Enclave

2. He specifically claims the 318 WR to be perfect followed by the 8x57 Mauser. Neither of these are actually mentioned by those who claim he shot all of his hunted elephant with the 7x57

3. He dislikes the long action rifle calibers like the 350 Rigby and the 416 Rigby because of the inherent propensity to short stroke with these actions. Though ironically he orders two of each from Rigby

4. He also does not like recoil of larger caliber rifles though he does use the Rigby 350, the 416 Rigby and a 400-450 double rifle ?

5. At the beginning of his hunting he uses calibers used in the Boer war namely the 303 Brit and then 7x57 . The problem with this assumption is that he starts hunting in 1902 and only orders hist first Rigby 275 by 1910 ?
With his first Africa safari he uses Sniders ( 8 of them in 450-577) and a 303 ! Bell is strongly influenced by Selous who in turn was a prodigy of one of the greatest elephant hunters ever a boer hunter by name of Jan Viljoen
(1812-1893 )
Viljoen lived in the Marico district of what was the early Transvaal. He was not a “writer hunter” but he and hunters like Jan Harm “Humpata” Robbertse (1851-1919) were widely acclaimed as being the greatest elephant hunters of our time based on accounts of the amount of ivory they sold. Little was known about their hunting other than that they accounted for many tons of ivory sold and Selous credited his tutelage to Viljoen.

Some assumptions can be made about the conditions regarding elephant hunting at that time. The elephant hunted at the time were not the same as more “modern” elephant in that they at the time had little fear and little contact with man.

So if the same were to be undertaken by 1930 he certainly would likely not have had success as he had when he started hunting in 1902.

We also have evidence that Bell knew his topographical anatomy, something which was imperative if a small bore was to be used to kill elephant successfully.

The hunting timeline is important as to his use of the 7x57.

He starts his African hunting in 1902.
He Ends his African hunting career in 1920.
During the Great War ( 1914-1918) he does not hunt.

So in total we have 13 years pre WW1 and 2 years after WW1

The majority of his African hunting is done 1902 to 1911.

6. What we do not know is whether he owned 7x57s prior to him ordering his first 7x57 from Rigby in 1910.

This is important because when he orders his first 7x57 he had already done 8 years of elephant hunting. In 1909 he buys a Daniel Frazer ( Dan’l) in 6.5x54 and he uses this for his Lado enclave hunting.

What is more all of his Rigby 7x57 rifles (5 in all) except for the last one was actually suited to Elephant hunting.

Rifles 1 to 4 were all Rigby no 2 rifles regulated for the 140 gr high velocity bullet, only rifle no 5 was a no 1 rifle ( regulated for the 173 gr bullet )

The timeline as per the Rigby ledgers look like this:

First rifle: 1910 Rigby no 2 275 Rigby
Second rifle: 1911 Rigby No 2 275 Rigby
Third rifle: 1912 Rigby No 2 275 Rigby
Fourth Rifle: 1922 Rigby No 2 275 Rigby
Fifth Rifle: 1923 Rigby No 1 275 Rigby

Just to clarify again his last African hunt is in 1920 so rifle no 4 and 5 are ordered after the fact and as most of his elephant are shot between 1902 and 1911 he only has 1910 to 1913 of hunting with a Rigby 275 and then after the war 1919 and 1920.



Other Rigby rifles ordered:
1. Rigby 416: 1912
2. Rigby 416: 1913.
Rigby 350: ?
Rigby 360: ? ( We don’t know if this was an error and this was also a 350 ? )

7 . The 318 WR: He did indeed hunt with the 318WR but only after 1911 because he got his first 318 in 1911 and he had two of these.

He swapped them intermittently from a gun bearer.
The 318 was developed in 1910.
So again in the latter part of his African hunting career.

7. There is reference to a Mauser 8x57.

8. The 450/400 double: There is conflicting reference to the 450/400 double as to when used. He indicates though he dislikes the recoil

9. The 303: He hunts with a Enfield 303 but dislikes the action.
In 1907 orders as Mauser 98 in 303. This is therefore a intermediate action 303 Mauser Built specially for Rigby.

He likes the 303 and then drops it in 1910 because Kynoch stops making the 215 gr bullet in favour of a 174 gr bullet totally unsuited for elephant hunting.

This is a pic of my very rare Mauser 303 specially made by Mauser for Rigby.
What is rare about this specimen is that it never made it to England and wears no British proofs. According to Speed there are less than 100 of these known to exist. The caliber is designated in metric terms ie 7.7mm


10. His first African safari of 1902:

8 Snider rifles in 450/577 and his 303 Enfield.

11. There is some conflicting reporting between his books written on the 303 and 450-400 as well as to the use of the 7x57 because there is reference to the 275 which would have been the Rigby rifles vs 7x57 which would have meant he was using a German Mauser ?

12 . In 1911 when he hunts Liberia he has no 7x57 with him, only a 318 WR and a 22 Rook rifle.

I suppose if any of us could achieve half of what Bell did we wouldn't have anything else to talk about, apart from the money we made from ivory. Who would care about premium bullets

WDM Bell - Extracts from “Big Game Records Book” circa 1931

According to Professor H. Fairfield Osborn, man has been a hunter of mastodons and
elephants for the sake of their bones, ivory, and flesh, for a million and a quarter years. The question of the comparative danger of various wild beasts has always been a highly controversial subject, but, certain it is, that the pursuit of elephants is one of the most dangerous of sports, and most hunters of experience have placed the elephant either first second or third, on the list of dangerous game.

In the early days of South Africa, when these animals were to be found in relatively open country, it was possible to pursue them on horse-back, but the constant persecution to which they were subjected had the effect of driving them into the "fly" infested country of the interior where horses could no longer be used. With this principal exception the African elephant is hunted on foot, and if consistently followed up this represents the most exacting form of sport in the world,

The restrictions now placed upon elephant hunting seem to preclude the possibility of the enormous bags that follow ever being equaled, and elephant hunting as a remunerative profession is a thing of the past. So far as I have been able to ascertain, the most successful African elephant hunter of all time is Mr. W. D. M. Bell, who has killed 983 bulls and 28 cows, making a total of 1,011 elephants.

I am greatly indebted to Mr. Bell for the many intimate details concerning his career which follow;
Born in 1880, he formed the fixed intention of becoming an elephant hunter at an early age. He landed in Africa towards the end of the last century, and success attended his earliest efforts. Since that time he has spent sixteen and a half years on the actual hunting grounds and has shot in the following localities: Kenya, Karamojo, Abyssinia, Sudan, Lado Enclave, French Ivory Coast, Liberia, French Congo and Belgian Congo. All these countries contributed their quota of elephants to his enormous bag as the accompanying list shows.

W.D.M.Bell 23rd March 1931

Locality Bull Elephants Shot
Mombasa-Malindi Coast 14
Tana River 17
Masindi District 23
Mount Elgon 42
Mani-Mani 91
Dodose 63
Dabossa 149
Lado Enclave 266
French Ivory Coast 80
Liberia 27
French Congo 189
Belgian Congo 22

Total 983

With regard to these figures Mr. Bell says: “I have not included cow elephants shot for meat or in defense of myself or attendants. The number so shot is 28, making the total 1,011". The largest number of bull elephants he ever shot in one day was 19. Other days yielded 17, 16, and 15 on three occasions, and 14 and 12 on three occasions.
His best month produced 44, all killed in three consecutive days, and in his worst month he did not even see one. His most disappointing day he describes thus; "54 bull elephants (mostly huge) found and counted, all travelling steadily along. Got directly into path and waited until leaders bore ten and fifteen paces to front on either hand and then succeeded in dropping only 5 out of that magnificent millionaire herd. They split up in all directions and at Hell's own gait. Alas, what should I have done?"
His most pleasantly memorable experience "When my partner said; “Well, Bell, I'm damned”, after watching me from a tree-top run down and kill 6 large bulls out of 6 in long grass, at mid-day, in as many minutes".

His heaviest yield of ivory as the result of one day's shooting amounted to 1,643lbs of soft ivory from 11 head containing 21 tusks, one being a single tusker. The average weight was over 77 lbs and the value £863.

The following detailed results which he has kindly given me are, I think, of exceptional interest;

Yield from five best Safaris

Weight of Ivory Value

14,780 lbs £7,300

14,247 lbs £7,082

12,814 lbs £6,923

11,024 lbs £4,792

10,670 lbs £4,230


Best Year

Ivory sold £7,300
Expenditure £3,100

Profit £4,200

Worst Year

Ivory sold £1,563
Expenditure £3,400

Loss £1,837

These are wonderful figures, but the extra- ordinarily severe nature of the work may be judged from the fact that Mr. Bell informs me that his average yearly consumption of boot leather amounted to 24 pairs, and he estimates that the total mileage covered on foot, including going to and returning from hunting grounds, amounts to 73 miles for every elephant killed.
His most unpleasant experience he describes as "Travelling hot-foot 8 hours at 6 miles per hour on enormous track in wet season to find a tuskless bull! Killed to prevent a recurrence! "The feet of his native assistants, carrying water bottle and spare rifle, lasted on an average for four months, at one month on and one month in the base camp. Their soles he says were then right down to the quick, in spite of sandals. One of his men alone stuck it for ten months on end, but then retired altogether.
Since it may prove of interest to know some of his rules of life when engaged in this arduous work, I will quote the following from the notes he has given me : "Best method of keeping one's own feet in working condition in spite of rubs and blisters, is to wash socks every day and powder them thickly with boracic. Best diet for hunting sour milk and dried buck meat (biltong). Next best elephant trunk, cut small and stewed, with native vegetables and flour. Worst diet for hunting the ingredients in what is known as doing yourself well".

Mr. Bell has related many of his experiences in his most excellent book, "The Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter ", which was published in 1923. There is nothing more remarkable in that book than his account of a day in the Lado Enclave in which he ran a herd of elephants to a walking pace. This notable day started by his killing a white rhino with a magnificent horn; by 8 a.m. he was at the heels of the herd of elephants and at sundown, or 6 p.m., he found himself passing the carcass of the rhino he had killed in the morning, having travelled all day in an enormous circle. He had the herd well in hand by 2 p.m. and at the finish they seemed quite incapable of anything more than a walking pace. He bagged 15 bulls from the herd, but though he often attempted to repeat the feat with other herds he was never able to live with them except for a short distance.

With regard to rifles, Mr. Bell tried many at one time and another including a double 450/400 and magazine rifles of various calibres. He formed a very definite preference for magazine weapons and for many years used the .275 and the .256 in every kind of country and against every kind of game. His greatest successes were achieved with the 7 mm. Rigby Mauser or the .276, firing the old round-nosed solid bullet.

As a big game shot it is difficult to write regarding his skill. Most first-class men are reticent on this subject, but those who have read Mr. Bell's book, "The Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter", will have quickly sensed the fact that it was written by a man of exceptional ability with the rifle. An exact knowledge of the anatomy of game, a rule never to fire unless he knew exactly where he was placing his bullet and a temperament that enabled him to retain a perfect control over himself in every moment of danger or excitement were important contributory factors to his wonderful success.

He invariably carried his own rifle, and the natural aptitude which he must undoubtedly have possessed, together with the years of incessant practice which his life as a hunter entailed, combined in giving him an almost complete control over his game, irrespective of the angle at which it presented a shot. For actual examples indicating his skill I am able to give two instances, but since these relate to experiences with buffaloes and lions I must refer the reader to the respective chapters devoted to these two animals. Outstanding ability with the rifle would not alone account for Mr. Bell's success; an iron constitution and a physique capable of withstanding the constant exposure and strain to which it was subjected, a thorough knowledge of the game he followed, and last, but by no means least, a complete under- standing of, and ability to handle the natives, were all vital factors in his truly wonderful career.
---------------------

F. C. Selous has said: "as regards viciousness I should be inclined to put the buffalo third on the list", and W. D. M. Bell who has shot them in East, West and Central Africa has described them as "worthy game in thick stuff but ludicrously easy things to kill in open country".

Mr. W. D. M. Bell, whose opinion of the buffalo I have already quoted, has probably shot more of these animals than any other man. In the course of his career as a hunter he has killed between 600 and 700. In connection with the above I will now quote from information that Mr. Bell has kindly supplied me with: "In parts they (buffaloes) were the regular ration for the camp. I remember killing 23 out of 23 with a high velocity .22 rifle partly to see how effective the tiny 80 grain bullet was but chiefly because meat was required. I must have killed between six and seven hundred of these animals in all. Their hide was a constant trade article. Cut into sandal and shield sizes they never failed to attract an abundant supply of flour”

Lest the novice or moderate shot should be encouraged by the above statement to attack the dangerous game of Africa with a .22 rifle, I feel it should be stated that Mr. Bell is probably one of the most brilliant big-game shots that has ever lived. The high velocity .22 rifle in the hands of such an expert may well be an adequate weapon, but it is usually regarded as in the extreme of small bores for use against dangerous game.

As Mr. Bell was primarily an elephant hunter, fuller details of his career are to be found in Chapter I, but by way of comment on his bag of buffaloes, it can again be said that he spent sixteen and a half years on the actual hunting grounds, and, as his reputation spread and increased among the native tribes, his camp following grew in proportion. The bag is certainly enormous, but it must be remembered that the hungry mouths often numbered hundreds and it was vital to him to obtain and maintain the good-will of the natives in the many remote parts where he penetrated.

Mr. W. D. M. Bell, whose career as an elephant hunter I have dealt with in the first chapter, has kindly supplied me with the following notes on his experiences with rhinoceroses in Equatorial Africa: "Regarding my bag of black rhino I find that out of a total of 63 killed no less than 41 were shot when presenting some sort of menace to either myself or to a line of porters or to an encampment. Of the remainder only three were killed for food, thus indicating the richness of the other and better meat harvest, while the remaining were chiefly killed for making sandals or for rewarding natives with shield pieces. In my time the horn was not worth taking unless of unusual size”.

"During my elephant hunts west of the Nile on the banks of that river the white rhino was very plentiful. The greatest number I ever saw in one day was eleven but I saw some every day. They were quite inoffensive, unlike the pugnacious black, and hardly ever required shooting. Other meat was plentiful and I killed three only".

That great African hunter, Mr. W. D. ML Bell, was mainly concerned with elephants, but in some interesting notes that he has kindly furnished me with, he says; "With regard to lions I merely killed any that caused annoyance, such as roaring round camp, stampeding porters, and so forth. The total so killed is 25".
Leopards he shot, when he came across them, provided he was not close to elephants at the time, or by waiting for them at water-holes etc. Mr. Bell shot 16 leopards during the course of his hunting career.
I have already indicated in the chapters devoted to African elephants and African buffaloes that Mr. Bell is a rifle shot of outstanding ability, it is therefore particularly interesting to know his views on lion hunting, I quote the following from his most excellent book, “The Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter", in which he says:
"The reason of the high mortality among those who hunt lions casually is, I think, the simple one of not holding straight enough. Buck -fever or excitement, coupled with anxiety lest the animal should slip away, is probably the cause of much of the erratic shooting done at lions. This frequently results in flesh wounds or stomach wounds, which very often cause the lion to make a determined charge; and there are a great many things easier to hit than a charging lion. Great care should be taken to plant the bullet right. The calibre does not matter; I am convinced, provided the bullet is in the right place. Speaking personally, I have killed sixteen lions with .256 and .275 solid bullets, and, as far as I can recollect, none of them required a second shot".

Why does it really matter to anyone???????

I do not remember anyone saying anything about EVERYONE having to use Premium Bullets, what happened to PERSONAL CHOICE????????

If not to discuss stuff related to shooting huntings and guns.... why participate in a forum like AR at all?

We could just truck on on our own !
why write books, read magazines ........

Exactly. If you get bored with a thread, move on, stop following it. Besides, there's always a few newcomers who come here for advice or whatever, and who says they want to go read old threads.
If you're feeling grumpy, go take a nap.
I find the topic useful, seeing as l haven't used every bullet in every caliber at differing velocities

Don't all get so hung up. Notice the smiley and I said we wouldn't have anything to talk about if we could only achieve half of what Bell did. Hands up those who think they could achieve half. Have no fear, I think we will always have a lot to discuss and debate.

quote:

Originally posted by boet:
Exactly. If you get bored with a thread, move on, stop following it. Besides, there's always a few newcomers who come here for advice or whatever, and who says they want to go read old threads.
If you're feeling grumpy, go take a nap.
I find the topic useful, seeing as l haven't used every bullet in every caliber at differing velocities

On every point above: Agreed. Well said. Not all written here is meant to educate; decide right or wrong; which is best. I'd wage that very close to all of it is opinion and what's wrong with that? Personally, that's why I come here. It's not only entertaining, but, in their own way, the disagreements are all informative and thus useful. If I want hard data, I've got a small library of manuals and texts.

Just my .02.

Eagle,
I agree with your reply, my post only had to do with rifle skill, and to a lesser extent hunting ability.

The old PHs were tough old birds. I have a book printed in the early 1700s and the hunters existence would make Bell look like spot in the first reader of kindergarten..This guy slept on a grass matt, used two 60 caliber muzzle loaders, suffered Malaria, black water fever, and how he survived to write this old book I will never know, or why for that matter. He had one camp staffer, if you could call him that...He would locate a Rhino, toss a rope over a high limb with his second muzzle loader tied to the rope, shoot the Rhino and climb a tree is need be..Pull the gun up and shoot the Rhino in the head as old Mr. pug was trying to get him out of the tree, or sleep in the tree until the Rhino laid down or bled to death, then get his other gun and go put in the coup de grace!..Now that's tough..

The point is the further back you go in history, the tougher and perhaps meaner hunters were, all the way to prehistoric man..Bell was just in the chain of command, or perhaps the food chain, what ever the case may be, so to speak. Even today I see my Texas Ranger Grandfather as tougher then my dad, and my dad was tougher than I and that circle goes unbroken I suspect..They had to be, life was tougher..I use the word tough in regards to their ability to survive inclimate weather, hard times, and a 16 hour labor day, and a lifestyle that made them great hunters, shooting skill was dependant on the individual, even then.

BTW, I was given this book by PH Philip Prices father some years ago..I treasure it.

Like Alf said AR is all about intelligent or almost intelligent conversation, interesting thoughts and suggestions, otherwise it would be terribly boring.