quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
I lost a real nice bear one time because a 220 gr. bullet fired from a 300 mag. over-expanded at close range. A premium bullet would have saved the day.

You also mention that you found "2.5" section of rib bone on the ground after the bear ran off" and that the bullet was observed to hit the chest. So, despite the alleged overexpansion, the bullet made it completely through the chest unless you're alleging the bullet blew out 2.5 inches of the rib on the near side of the chest which would be near impossible.

You also mention you were shooting a 300 magnum with 220 grain bullets. If said magnum was a 30-378 Weatherby (unlikely) at most the muzzle velocty would have been about 3,000 fps and if a 300 Winchester Magnum (more likely) muzzle velocity would have been at most about 2,700 fps. Compare that to a 30/06 (not a magnum) shooting 155 grain bullets (commonly used) and you could get a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps or, if you prefer 168 grain bullets, you might get 2,900 fps. So the hypervelocity magnums aren't really hypervelocity at all with the heavier bullets.

I would opine that you were unlucky or shot an extra tough bear and would have had similar results with one of the vaunted premium bullets.

Others have questioned why not use a premium bullet since compared to the cost of a hunting trip their cost is inconsequential. Some reasons:

1. When bullet amd ammunition manufacturers call their stuff premium and lie about the need for it I don't think they should be rewarded.

2. If so called premium bullets shot the best, I would use them and for certain loads they do shoot well and I use them. In fact I have hundreds of dollars worth of premium bullets on the shelf. Cost doesn't factor in much in determining what bullet I shoot nearly as much as how well it does on paper.

3. There are those who can't affort to have hundreds of dollars in bullet inventory. Why lie to them and make them believe that if they don't shoot an expensive bullet they're not ethical hunters? If they're not shooting exspensive bullets, perhaps they'll practice more.

4. Some more economical bullets not called premium perform just as well as some called premium. I don't think it's a sign of intelligence to pay more than one needs to for something.

By the way, in shooting several dozen African plains game animals, I've never lost one and have never used a claimed premium bullet in shooting them.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
You also mention that you found "2.5" section of rib bone on the ground after the bear ran off" and that the bullet was observed to hit the chest. So, despite the alleged overexpansion, the bullet made it completely through the chest unless you're alleging the bullet blew out 2.5 inches of the rib on the near side of the chest which would be near impossible.

I still have a jacket from a 180 gr Hornady Spire Point in one of my "bits" drawers. It went out of an '06, estimated impact velocity = 2600 fps. This was a small CT whitetail. On impact (in recoil) saw a 2" hole open up on the ribcage, the animal was already going down.

Another illustration that "bullet failure" can be accompanied by DRT results. And why wouldn't it? Isn't this what we expect and get from just about every varmint projo?

Anyway, the jacket had split longitudinally. There was no intervening brush, and this was a maybe 40 yd shot. Did not find all the rib/skin fragment, except for one bone fragment in the heart. The onside lung was collapsed, and lacerated.

I have never had that happen since, but mostly use Rem PSPCLs now.

A Nosler partition would not have changed the outcome in this case, though the autopsy results would have differed. It would not be illogical to think that same bullet performance on something big and/or nasty might have better illustrated the value of Nosler partitions.

I do need premium bulets on occasions such as:

- DG hunts

- guided hunt bounded to tight time limited high cost hunt where you can't pick your choices

- hyped up velocity calibers - 8x68S comes to my mind

Then there there are occasions where squeezing a cheap, soft, heavy, 100 years old design, round nosed jacketed bullet at close range into quartering away stag/elk/moose behind the shoulder - aiming for opposite front shoulder with 9.3x74R just feels premium per se

Grumulkin, numerous times I've had body parts from game blown back from the entrance wound side. Your analysis that the bone blowing out the entrance wound is impossible is totally incorrect.

You hunt long enough and shoot enough critters, you will see bullets Premium or otherwise do strange things when impacting animals bodies, there is no one size fits all in every situation.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Grumulkin, numerous times I've had body parts from game blown back from the entrance wound side. Your analysis that the bone blowing out the entrance wound is impossible is totally incorrect.

I know blood can be blown out the entrance hole but am highly skeptical that a 2.5 inch piece of bear rib would be. I am, however, willing to change my mind if any of the other experienced gentlemen here have seen a similar phenomenen.

Another question; are you SURE it was rib and not leg bone?

Kinda off subject but it keeps bothering my mind. With a hunk of bone that big, it would seem that you'd have a blood trail that a blind man could follow.

I can't argue with either side of this one..Ive seen some strange things, but I can guarantee that bone can and does blow back out the entrance hole at times...

I, for the most part, use super premiums, on big stuff and about any bullet on deer size animals..

I have never had nor seen a Win. PP or Rem corelokt fail under any circumstances, I would not call them a premium bullet, just a excellent bullet that works.. I honestly doubt any suggestions that either one failed..I would just have to believe something was wrongly interpreted for whatever reason..I've seen more than a few Silvertips fail and have regulated them as deer bullets. I remember when all factory and handloaded bullets failed on many occasions but never these two..

I subscribe to a theory of using an appropriate recipe for a given task. Because some animals are simply tougher than others. However I dont think there is ANY animal on the planet that either a big enough cup and core, OR a solid wouldnt handle just fine. With that said, although I prefer cup and cores for most of my hunting, there are a few "premium" bullets that I like and use. Accubonds being one of them.

I see very little improvement from the original Nosler Partitiions, circa 1950...

Most of the advancements are bandaids to cover up the inability of most modern hunters to stalk close enough to their animal, imho.

Can't be much to them if bowhunters are a comparison.

This is my late take on this subject.
Premium bullets have their place, BUT, the HYPE that comes along for the ride is something we DO NOT need.
This new notion that a bullet requires 100% weight retention is ridiculous.
Once and for ALL, bullets DO NOT kill by bullet weight or energy, they kill by disrupting tissue, vessels and organs causing either/both CNS damage and blood loss. As a bullet loses weight, it is disrupting tissue by throwing off particles in a wave ahead of the actual bullet, destroying/disrupting far more tissue than if it didn't. Mono's and premiums generally produce NARROWER wound channels, although they impart MORE energy due to higher weight retention. The argument for higher weight retention is ridiculous.

Cheers.

416RigbyHunter, While there is some merit to your reply, I respectfully disagree on the overall statement. Retained weight equals retained sectional density. Retained sectional density equals deeper penetration, deeper penetration equals more contact with bone( fragmented bone creates a great deal of tissue damage ), organs and blood vessels. I will not say everyone "must" use them, but for me, it's my only choice! memtb

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Others have questioned why not use a premium bullet since compared to the cost of a hunting trip their cost is inconsequential. Some reasons:

All of those reasons are worth considering. When I talk about the cost of a trip, I'm discussing a 1100-mile drive one-way. For someone fortunate enough to live where his game lives, life is different. The last ten or so years, I've shot antelope from about 75 yards with high-velocity cartridges instead of my 6x45mm (arguably a better choice for short ranges but the short range is not guaranteed). I shoot the same 85-grain Partition Bullet in the 6x45mm and the 6mm-284. I dunno, to each his own.

How do you define premium? By cost? Is Nosler Partition a premium?

Years ago I shot a whitetail yearling buck with a 30-06 using 150 grain cup and core bullet. The deer went down with the shot. I went immediately to the deer and somehow it got to it's feet and staggered 100 yards or so before falling dead. The deer was hit perfectly, took out heart and liver and had large exit hole. How that deer took one more breath is amazing to me. Would a premium bullet have changed anything? Of course we will never know. Would a .300 mag vs the wimpy 30-06 changed anything? Of course we will never know.
I have been involved in many threads on this forum about shooting deer with .223. My experience has been place a plain old cup and core bullet in the right place and the fun is over and the work begins, you now need a sharp knife. Invariably someone will throw in you need a premium bullet and how it increases margin of error yada yada yada. In ALMOST all cases, this will be someone with zero actual experience. I think "premium" bullet is about like the popular term of "vintage" used on EBAY. For example, you will see current production Bausch & Lomb binoculars listed as vintage. (Chinese made). To me, vintage B&L's are those made in Rochester NY.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
To me, vintage B&L's are those made in Rochester NY.

Yes, and vintage Olympus microscopes were made in Tokyo.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
This is my late take on this subject.
Premium bullets have their place, BUT, the HYPE that comes along for the ride is something we DO NOT need.
This new notion that a bullet requires 100% weight retention is ridiculous.
Once and for ALL, bullets DO NOT kill by bullet weight or energy, they kill by disrupting tissue, vessels and organs causing either/both CNS damage and blood loss. As a bullet loses weight, it is disrupting tissue by throwing off particles in a wave ahead of the actual bullet, destroying/disrupting far more tissue than if it didn't. Mono's and premiums generally produce NARROWER wound channels, although they impart MORE energy due to higher weight retention. The argument for higher weight retention is ridiculous.

Cheers.

2 bullets of similar weight that do not exit the body will impart the same energy regardless of whether they blew apart or retained 100% of their weight.

However, the bullet that retained 100% of its weight most likely over-penetrated, exited the body & wasted energy on the air/brush/ground beyond the animal.

To me, this is perfect bullet performance. 139gr .284 Hornady Interbond 3150 fps Mv impacted scapula of a 168# (dressed weight) Whitetail quartering on at 20 yds. It traveled diagonally the length of the body & lodged under the hide on the off side hind quarter. 86% weight retention with maximum mushroom effect thus imparting massive tissue destruction & all of the bullets energy.

Premium bullets, at least the Nosler Partition when it came out, were designed to handle two stressing situations: 1. Expand, but hold together (at least the rear half) and penetrate at close range at high velocity (3000 fps and up). 2. Expand at long range when velocity is much lower (1800 to 2000 fps). To this day very few bullets reliably do both of these things. If you're hunting elk, moose or bear with a 30-06 and shooting 180g or heavier bullets a CoreLokt is probably all you ever need. If you're shooting a 270 with 130g bullets or one of the hotter 7mm or 30 caliber magnums at the same game, a premium bullet makes sense.

416 Rigbyhunter,
I don't disagree with your post, but I must add that I do want an exit hole thus a blood trail, and will forfeit some of that destruction to get that..

That said Im not a monolithic fan, other than I have had excellent with GS Customs bullets.. Although many of my very knowledgable friends are monolithic fans and I respect their opinnion. I, personally, have seen the monolithics pinch the HP shut and bend and change course on two occasions, and I have seen them blow off the front petals on many ocassions and more or less drill an animal, which made many tracks before he succumbed..I believe them to work best on big ugly animals like Cape Buffalo, Hippo etc. as opposed to deer size game.

I prefer a bullet that isn't necessarily a nice smooth ball like mushroom as used for advertisement, rather I like a fan shaped ragged cross section with extended wings that act like a buzz saw..Woodleighs are quite good at this kind of mushrooming as are Nosler Partitions as a rule, to expect every bullet to perform in this way is asking a lot as so many today form a beautifull little ball like mushroom that drives the bullet diggers wild!! Fortunatly todays bullets are the best ever and the bullet companies are forever improving their bullets to suit todays hunters. Its been a long time since Ive seen a bullet fail..In my early days it was very common with the exception or Rem Corelokts and WW powerpoints they all failed on more ocasssions than I liked.

quote:

Originally posted by memtb:
416RigbyHunter, While there is some merit to your reply, I respectfully disagree on the overall statement. Retained weight equals retained sectional density. Retained sectional density equals deeper penetration, deeper penetration equals more contact with bone( fragmented bone creates a great deal of tissue damage ), organs and blood vessels. I will not say everyone "must" use them, but for me, it's my only choice! memtb

This is also rubbish, SD does not miraculously stay the same, as a bullet gets LARGER in diameter it SLOWS DOWN, therefore, the rules that governed the SD number in the first place have changed.
Why do you think SD means actually anything other than a rough guide that heavy for calibre bullets SHOULD penetrate deeper, BUT, often don't?
Sorry, but, respectfully, your theory of SD doesn't hold up, as SD and bullet diameter get larger, penetration gets less. A 700 Nitro doesn't penetrate as deep as a 600 Nitro, and a 585 doesn't penetrate as far as a 535, etc, etc.
All have higher SD's as the calibre increases in diameter and weight.
This is commonly known as the parachute effect, a larger and heavier object has to displace more tissue, this essentially slows it down faster. Just as the faster a bullet travels in air, the faster it slows down exponentially.
Bullets DO NOT kill by SD, ENERGY or other BS factors like KO figures. They kill from velocity imparting a wave through tissue so tremendous as to cause it to burst it's cells.
If I stab an animal with a rod the same weight/energy as imparted by the bullets energy, is the tissue destroyed with the velocity missing? No it isn't, it is dispalced and cut, but it is not a bloodshot mess that is hemorrhaging at an alarming rate.
You guys do too little testing of ACTUAL physics theory. The old example of what weighs more, a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers?
What will hurt more, 80lb woman in stilettos standing on your foot, or the 160lb guy in work shoes?

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
Sorry, but, respectfully, your theory of SD doesn't hold up, as SD and bullet diameter get larger, penetration gets less.

The formula for sectional density is:

Sectional density = bullet mass/bullet cross sectional area

So, as a bullet expands, i.e., bullet diameter gets larger, the sectional density doesn't get larger but gets less. It's true that greater bullet expansion will result in less penetration but the sectional density also became less.

quote:

Originally poster by wildcat junkie:
2 bullets of similar weight that do not exit the body will impart the same energy regardless of whether they blew apart or retained 100% of their weight.

However, the bullet that retained 100% of its weight most likely over-penetrated, exited the body & wasted energy on the air/brush/ground beyond the animal.

True, but as some mentioned, they're willing to sacrifice some energy expended on the animal for a good blood trail.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally poster by wildcat junkie:
2 bullets of similar weight that do not exit the body will impart the same energy regardless of whether they blew apart or retained 100% of their weight.

However, the bullet that retained 100% of its weight most likely over-penetrated, exited the body & wasted energy on the air/brush/ground beyond the animal.

True, but as some mentioned, they're willing to sacrifice some energy expended on the animal for a good blood trail.

Very true but there is a happy medium. I tried Nosler 140gr .284 Accubonds which destroyed a lot of meat on entry, but once the nose had blown off, the small diameter base would exit with a small hole & a very sparse blood trail.

On all but frontal shots I still got complete pass-through with the Hornady 139 gr .284 Interbonds, but the exit wounds were much larger & meat destruction less. The thing is, I never had to trail an animal hit broadside with the Hornady Interbonds because they were DRT. I'm sure if the deer had managed to run off, there would have been a copious blood trail due to the large exit wound.

When comparing a standard cartridge to a hypervelocity cartridge you compare the same bullet weight in both cartridges. Not a light bullet in the standard to a heavy bullet in the hyper velocity cartridge.
Most hunters that use a Magnum cartridge aren't looking to shoot heavy bullets at standard velocities but run standard bullets much faster.
These Magnum cartridges using standard weight bullets at close ranges will experience failures more often than a standard cartridges will.
As mentioned Premium bullets were designed to help prevent failures of standard bullets. I agree with this as far as driving bullets to high velocity. Most any cup and core bullet driven to around 2800 fps will seldom fail, drive this bullet to 3000 fps and failures start to appear, drive it to 3200 fps and failures increase much faster and it becomes a varmint bullet, not a big game bullet.
Most of out most cherished cartridges earned there reputations with cup and core bullets at moderate speeds. If loaded the same way they still work superbly.
With more modern powders you can push these old favorites to much higher velocities. In so doing stronger bullets are needed. These stronger bullets won't help much at longer ranges but are needed for the close in shots. Like the guy that was disappointed in his bullets performance when shooting an animal at 80 yards with a 300 magnum. In that situation a 30-30 would have been better.
Then again he was probably hunting were he expected longer shots at heavier game, so the larger rifle.
Perhaps he only had one rifle to choose from.
I can't say, but using the wrong cartridge for the job is not the fault of the bullet.
Leo

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:

Once and for ALL, bullets DO NOT kill by bullet weight or energy,

quote:

Bullets DO NOT kill by SD, ENERGY or other BS factors like KO figures. They kill from velocity imparting a wave through tissue so tremendous as to cause it to burst it's cells.

Then why do you use a 416 Rigby? Why not a 25-06 or a 223 as they both posses more of the velocity that you hold in such high regard? Clearly they must be the more effective "killers"..

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by memtb:

Sorry, but, respectfully, your theory of SD doesn't hold up, as SD and bullet diameter get larger, penetration gets less.

A 44 Magnum will out penetrate a 357 Magnum under almost any circumstances for one simple reason, it has more MASS!

You place a 1/4" piece of plywood on the ground, get on the roof of your house and take a 10 oz steel ball and THROW it off of your roof at the piece of plywood, then you take a 50 lb steel ball and DROP it off of your roof onto the plywood and see which one does the most damage to the plywood. Then come back and tell me more about how mass/energy is meaningless.

Wstrnhuntr, +1,

Agreed, we call that inertia...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Wstrnhuntr, +1,

Agreed, we call that inertia...

Inertia, weight, mass, energy.. Semantics. It is what it is.. A fat man sitting on you will hurt more than a 60 lb boy.

So there are people that believe that 1. a shockwave breaks cells and kills game; & 2. Sectional density is the primary element of penetration. Where have these people been for the last thirty years?

What makes up "sectional density"?

To the original question a resounding YES. Premium bullets make even moderate velocity rifles more versatile. I shot a big elk a few years ago with a 30-06. No biggie. Right? Thing is he was going straight away and I had a 30-06 loaded with 180 gr TSX's. One shot right in the butt and he turned left and flopped down dead. I would not have taken that shot with some premium bullets let alone a cup and core bullet. With the TSX I was confident I'd get the penetration needed.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
To the original question a resounding YES. Premium bullets make even moderate velocity rifles more versatile. I shot a big elk a few years ago with a 30-06. No biggie. Right? Thing is he was going straight away and I had a 30-06 loaded with 180 gr TSX's. One shot right in the butt and he turned left and flopped down dead. I would not have taken that shot with some premium bullets let alone a cup and core bullet. With the TSX I was confident I'd get the penetration needed.

Mark

Count me in the Premium, or solid, up the tailpipe shooter club. If I want it dead, it's a great shot option and I'm happy to take it.

McDonald's sells a lot of food™ and people can live off it. Do we really need premium food?

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:

Once and for ALL, bullets DO NOT kill by bullet weight or energy,

quote:

Bullets DO NOT kill by SD, ENERGY or other BS factors like KO figures. They kill from velocity imparting a wave through tissue so tremendous as to cause it to burst it's cells.

Then why do you use a 416 Rigby? Why not a 25-06 or a 223 as they both posses more of the velocity that you hold in such high regard? Clearly they must be the more effective "killers"..

Simply, your idiotic attempt at trying to disparage what I have said with your stupid examples is a waste of my time and others on the forum.

You, sir, are an imbecile.

Bullets kill by two mechanisms "Crush and stretch" and by nothing else.

Crush defined as that physical action where the target material is damaged by direct contact of the speeding projectile or its parts whilst stretch is defined as that part of the wound where the target is stretched as it pushed aside by the passage of the projectile.

In describing a wound or the formation of a wound the terms permanent cavity and temporary cavity are used to define that part caused by crush as the former and the latter by stretch.

In order to mathematically model these two events we use physical descriptors based on commonly used physics models based on physical properties of the projectile, usually mechanics or thermodynamic models or a combination of the two.

Entities such as SD and BC are simply mathematical derivations used to describe relationships between physical properties of mass in motion.

The effects or contribution of these relationships central to our ballistics problem.

When using a thermodynamic model we see that only mechanical energy plays a role in the creation of the wound. ie that part of of energy capable of moving target matter. Acoustic energy and thermal energy plays little or no role.

Shock waves are high speed acoustic disturbances propagated through the target in front of the projectile, travelling through the target as supersonic speeds and that do not transport tissue material and hence play no role in the causing of the wound. If they did we would have wounds every time ultrasound is used in medical settings. Though thermal energy is present the duration of projectile contact with tissue is very short and thus a thermal wound is not created.

Shock waves do have an effect though in that they can alter cell wall permeability and as such can alter for instance nerve conduction. A commonly utilized medical application to deal with certain musculoskeletal disorders

The mathematical descriptor known as SD is central to our ballistics problem in that it is pervasive and central to every branch of ballistics. ie internal , intermediate and finally terminal

Sectional density is simply defined as the ratio mass to a cross sectional surface area.

However as projectiles may come in varied shapes and sizes and may be symmetrical or asymmetrical, may exhibit stable or unstable flight, or penetration behaviour is is necessary to adapt or definition of SD reflect these possibilities in either mass or surface area.

For a projectile in motion then SD is defined as the ratio of the projectiles mass to the presenting ( projected) surface area in direction of motion. We can therefor discern between static and dynamic SD.

The former not valid in the actual physical event once the projectile is in motion. ( we can have a projectile flying side on and not point forward in which case static SD would have no validity at all)

Both mass and presenting surface area may change and do change during the acceleration, flight penetration event.

As to the so called Buzz saw effect of a spinning bullet with petals expanded , this does not happen

Because of the magnitude of the ratio between translational velocity relative to rotational velocity a projectile may only do 3 or 4 full revolutions before coming to a stop or passing through a target.

I am going on a deer hunt and well be using what some would call a premium bullet in some circles.

Others call it worthless I get little holes going in and about 2.5 inch holes going out.

I shoot what ever bullet I want do at the time.

Have fun and go hunting.

All you guys must be going through a "mental dry spell" because this is the biggest bunch of "mental masturbation" I have ever read.

The only 3 I ever recovered.



L : 7x64 160 Sierra GK. Frontal shot at Muntjac at +/- 80 m., bullet recovered in right ham. 181% expansion, 48% retained weight.

M : .300 Win Mag 165 Sierra GK. 3/4 frontal shot at red tag at +/- 200 m. Bullet recovered from hide pouch on opposing flank. 204% expansion, 78% retained weight.

R : .30-06 165 Sierra GK. Frontal shot at roebuck at +/- 150 m. Bullet found in hind quarter, 256% expansion, 59% retained weight.

During my 43 years of hunting and despite the "reputation" of fragility of the SGK bullets, I haven't found the urge to change...

416RigbyHunter, Not trying to start a "pi$$#&@ ma! ?&" here, but, in your first post you stated( loosely quoted ) - that cup and core bullets , upset quicker with larger frontal area creating a larger wound channel, spraying bullet fragments into the surrounding tissue. You sir just substantiated my opion, the greater frontal area, loss of bullet weight( through fragmentation ) both work toward lowering of sectional density. While neither will retain at it's original sectional density, the monolithic will retain a higher value thereby, creating a deeper channel while potentially destroying more muscle,organs,bone, vessels, and probably give an exit wound. The exit wound will probably offer an easier tracking job, should it be required! memtb

I guess I still like traditional premium bullets. I just have more confidence, misplaced or not, that they will always expand. Here's a .375 caliber 300g A-Frame, impact at 13 yards, traveled diagonally through a 900 lb brown bear after breaking the right shoulder, stil weighs 299.5 grains. Not saying they're better, just that I have more confidence in them.

I'll concede that premium bullets are strong enough to break bones and won't fail on dangerous game, but when I see hunters trailing after non-dangerous game that has been shot I usually find out they were using "premium bullets". I don't hunt anything that can bite, claw, or gore me and have never used anything but a standard cup and core bullet and nearly all of the game was DRT except when I didn't do my part correctly, which was very rarely. I have found bullets inside deer that were seperated but I don't consider this a failure. A failure is the deer getting away when the shot placement was correct. Just my opinion, and like "they" say everybody has one.