.

It's an enjoyable hobby.

And your friends could have problems someday if they are really that ignorant about Bullets and ballistics. If they still a bullet designed for varmints in the chamber and try to take an elk throug the shoulder, for example.

They also must be shooting at rather limited ranges, if they mix and match ammo.

Do they ever sight in their weapons??

A lot of it depends on the distance that they shoot at and the ability of the shooter.

I talked to one PH who says that he hasn't taken a shot at over 100 yards in 10+ years. He uses any ammunition that he can find, stuff that clients give him including their handloads. As long as the bullets hit the 6" circle at 100 yards he's happy.

I hunt with the same sort of folks.

There are several ways one creates his/her own luck.

Education is step one.

Ignorance in one's weapon and ammo used?

I'm happy to know my tools inside and out....and how to use them to the fullest of my practiced ability.

Are we nuts? Nope, we're just trying to make the best use of the tools we have available to us to ethically and humanely hunt game animals.

Back in about 1990, I went hunting with a co-worker. He had just bought a beautiful 30-06 BAR. He missed several shots at deer at close range so I asked him how he had it sighted in. He said the store where he bought the rifle had bore sighted the scope for him. I offered to stop so he could sight it in but he refused.

He didn't get any deer that day and I shot two. I cannot imagine going hunting without sighting in my rifle and knowing its trajectory with the loads I am using.

THE reason premium bullets were invented was because of failures that occurred with existing bullets. Playing the odds with conventional bullets will generally work, but there are occasions when a premium bullet makes the difference. So as Humphrey Bogart said to Kathryn Hepburn: you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Do premium bullets make a difference? In most cases I don't think it does. I've shot a lot of game of all sizes with Remington Corelokt ammo and it worked just fine.

Years back I had a hunting buddy who thought the grain of a cartridge was the amount of powder in it. But he typically got his elk so I guess for him it didn't matter. Of course back then too most of us had one rifle for all game. It wasn't until much later that the gun buying disease took over so now I have to think about which one to use today.

As long as the bullet choice isn't outrageously wrong or the result of bullet failure expensive or dangerous plain old PowerPoint's, Corelokts etc work just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
It then begs the question, are we nuts to be so anal about ballistics and choice of ammo and bullets ?

Yea, many are nuts but I have to sympathize since these days it's hard to find anything that isn't "premium." I have "premium" Federal ammo loaded with Sierra GameKings. You can even get premium water.

Many believe too much of what they read about what they should buy in bullets.

Until a fella starts tackling stuff that can bite back or is doing more sniping than hunting no, I don't believe "premium bullets" are remotely necessary. I haven't used jacketed bullets to hunt with in over 20 yeasr and of all the game I've killed over the last 20 years with cast bullets none could have been any more dead any quicker than they were. Frankly I believe my cast bullets would fall into the "premium bullet" category. If they aren't perfect they go back into the pot.

YES. And I learned my lesson on a "lowly" impala. Shot him at 80 yards quartering towards me on the point of the shoulder. He went down like the proverbial sack of potatoes, BUT I recovered the bullet (Hornady Interlock) on the off side ham weighing just 70 grains from it's original 180. Caliber was a 300 Weatherby. Had that been an eland or even a kudu, who knows. For "regular game", i.e. deer etc they are fine, I still use them, but I do watch the velocity. For "money game" however, nothing but TTSXs, A Frames, North Forks for me.

Not really required BUT the times they are a changin'. Used to be that about 99% of the hunting was done out the back door by hunters that carried and shot their guns a lot at game they knew intimately. The shooting was mostly close range, the velocities sedate and only sure shots were taken since if you didn't take the animal today, you had all season or all year. Today a hunt might be only a couple of days and as jorge said, it might involve a lot of money and game you have never seen before. In that instance premium bullets are still not required but every variable that can be controlled means that much more chance of success.

We owe it to the game we hunt to use proper equipment IMO. I have NEVER uttered the words "I sure wish I hadn't spent more money on these bullets and binoculars for this hunt".

If your buddies are shooting 7mm magnums and 338s, there are a lot of suitable choices for deer-sized game.
One could pick a box blindfolded and likely do just fine, particularly if you are picky about getting a good shot a reasonable range.
On the other hand, the cost of bullets is usually a small percentage of the cost of the trip.

Premium bullets generally reduce the margin of error in our big game shooting. They're not necessary in 95℅ of shots at big game but can make the difference in some circumstances. Some of us fret more than others over that last 5℅. Not me of course.

Premium bullet is a term that doesn't mean much anymore. It was simple when Federal started using the term, for factory loaded Partitions and although they may not have used the same term you've got to give Weatherby his due for using the Partitions since the fourties. Now, just about anything from frangible target bullets to mono solids have been labelled "Premium" by someone. You can take either of those two extremes and easily find a mis-application from hell. So much for price being an indication of suitability.

Some premium bullets are great compromises for all-round use, while others have moved over to specialty uses. The trouble with specializing is that as you get better and better at a single thing you will inevitably become less suited for everything else.

Most hunting is ordinary. Ordinary animals at ordinary ranges. Most are not abnormally tough, or big, nor require extremes of penetration. Most people will end up using a caliber and bullet weight that at least is in the ball-park of suitability. Not surprisingly, ordinary bullets that make most of the people happy most of the time do OK. There are premium bullets that do much the same job in the same way as many standby bullets, with a little added insurance against total destruction. For example a Partition expands , looses weight, penetrates and kills about the same as a Hornady Interlock right up to the point where you blow the Hornady apart. Short of that, you may never know the difference. Even with total destruction you will more than likely still be pulling your remnants out of a very dead animal. Still, a little insurance doesn't hurt for those outside chances of coming up short on penetration.

If you are hunting buffalo, by all means pay whatever you need to for whatever you believe is the best. "Believe" is a key phrase because since nobody can agree on what best is, there no certainty that your belief/philosophy is correct. If you feel the need to shoot elk with a .25, or use 3500 fps cartridges at 50 yards, or use the horizon for a target holder the appropriate premium bullets will be in order. Appropriate as in not using a frangible target bullet at 50 or a mono at 1000. That doesn't take a lot of knowledge, but it does more than thinking that a higher price is automatically better. When you avoid the extremes, whats left is back to ordinary.

Im ranch raised, and still run with mostly cowboys on a daily bases as I have some property and livestock..I team rope and compete professionally still at 82..

All my kin and frinds are hunters for the most part, dads rifle hung in a leather saddle scabbard out in the barn year around, it it needed cleaning an oiling he dunked it in a 55 gallon drum of drain oil. My family members have mostly one big game rifle, most were sighted in by me years ago and have not been bench fired since, a box of "shells" in the correct caliber suits them fine, no attention to what bullet weight or anything but price, and must be the cheapest available..Many calibers are undersize for elk such as the 30-30, 300 Savage, 250 Savage, 25-35, 257, 6mm...They are pretty successful and I don't recall losing an animal with them..I have a friend whos wife, kids kill a bull elk every year out the kitchen window with a old Rem 22-250, another couple of boys I know that kill their deer every year, one with a 25-20 and the other has a 218 bee win. 53..Neither has a need for more gun, their lifestyle dictates these caliber are suitable..

Folks, we are the minority!!

Its an eye opener that says how you hunt and where you stick your bullet at the shot.

Ive killed deer with all sorts of small calibers, you keep the range short and place the shot..simple as that, and yes you may have to pass up some nice trophy animals.

Are we anal, probably, but then again maybe WE need to be as we don't have the hunting opertunity as those who live year around on the land...Time is on the locals hands.

Growing up I had all season to hunt every day, I didn't actually hunt just carried my rifle daily until I jumped a buck that suited me and was in easy range for my gun and ability. I used a iron sighted 25-35 most of my young life..During elk season we hunted every day until everyone killed out. I found the 25-35 a proper elk rifle. Today most hunters have 5 days at most to conduct a proper hunt, they need to have proper calibers and sighting apparatus to get the job done in a hurry so to speak...

In my case I was born a gun nut, part of the game is testing calibers and bullets, its my hobby..The family depends on me to fix any problems they have if their guns not shooting. They think I can put them right on a bif big buck or bull, they are fine with any gun.

As usual its not black and white, its shades of grey..

BTW, Rem RN corelokts, and WW Power points are as good or better than the best of super premium bullets, they simply don't fail and the work from 3100 to 1400 FPS, and are the only two bullets that passed the Handloader magazine test of about 40 bullets a few years back..and that has also been my experience with these two fine bullets.

I used to hunt with a couple guys like that.
They get the trusty rifle out the weekend before the hunt and rummage around and find some ammo to use.
One of them asked me to help him sight in his rifle. I met him at the range. He had a 30-06 BAR. His ammo was partial boxes in a grocery bag and was every imaginable bullet weight.
As I was attempting to sight in is gun, I noticed that he had some FMJ cartridges that he picked up at a garage sale or some place like that. Upon closer examination, it was 8MM mauser. I don't know if it would have chambered in his 30-06 or not, but if it had the results would have been pretty spectacular.
Now when he wants to go hunting or help with sight in, I make excuses.
I don't have anytime for people that don't become proficient with their weapons before hunting. By the way, this guy was a corporate attorney, he could well afford ammo.

I think their success is more by luck than by design.

Speaking as a very happy Barnes fan, I'd say, no, we don't usually need a premium bullet, especially on medium sized big game.

However, the bullet has the most important job of all to do, and we expect it to work whether the shot is at 10 yards and facing us, or way the heck out there and quartering away.

Bullets are also the cheapest part of any hunt. Even a homemade lunch costs more than one bullet.

To me, using a Barnes, is just extra insurance. I know that bullet can and will penetrate better than anything else out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Im ranch raised, and still run with mostly cowboys on a daily bases as I have some property and livestock..I team rope and compete professionally still at 82..

Ray, you are an animal. ANIMAL, I say!

(And I'm pea-green envious . . . and encouraged . . . and really impressed!)

Well, I can’t resist making a fool of myself.

The question: “Are premium bullets necessary?”

My answer, an opinion based on little experience but some thought, is: “No in most cases. But it can be advantageous depending on what you’re hunting.”

When I hunt deer with my .270, I don’t feel the need to use a premium bullet.

But if I were hunting elk or moose with a .270 (and, full disclosure, I never have), I’d select a premium bullet because I believe it would be advantageous to do so.

If I were to hunt elk or moose with my .338 Win Mag, I'd use a Hornady .225 Interlock.

I think the premium bullets were developed because of the demands of the magnums. Standard bullets were coming apart at the light bullet/hyper velocity that the magnums were capable of.
That said, all of the game I've killed could have been had with a standard core lokt/sierra/speer/hornady. I don't shoot at long distances nor do I shoot animals in the ass. And when I hunt "out the back door", that's what I use. But when I spend the money and travel several hundred miles for a chance at a mulie/antelope/elk, I use a premium bullet for the warm, fuzzy feeling it gives me. Understand that to me, a Partition or Grand Slam is a premium bullet.

My answer is: "Rarely" However; it is sure nice to be able to choose to do so anyway when we want.
I have shot a couple in the "rear" let us say.
Old Copper over lead, 300 Grain .338 Barnes solid with the open nose where they folded the Copper in. Not sure that qualifies as a premium bullet. 220 grain Hornady RN soft in the 30-06. Both exited quite well after passing through the intended targets, Heart/lungs, and both animals ran straight into the ground.
I have not hunted Elk in the dark timber in a long time. I hope to next year. Probably will be carrying the old '06 with a few 220 Nosler Partitions I have been saving. They will work from either end too I suspect.

I think projectile application should change as the quarry changes. It is not hard to kill deer, and it isn't hard to kill pigs, either. Shot placement is the key, as it always is.

The ante gets upped, if you will, when we start talking about larger game that spends its life in places where everything either cuts, claws, or scratches. These animals have tougher/thicker hide, are larger animals more densely muscled, etc.

For instance: I shot a bull elk in 1997 with a 150-grain Speer Grand Slam out of my BDL .270. The bullet came apart. I retrieved the bull, but it certainly would have been nice had the projectile held together. Although classed as a premium bullet, in my estimation, I experienced a partial failure because the bullet did not hold together and exit. But this is my opinion only. I think there are better bullets for what I did back then.

Additionally, I am contemplating a nilgai hunt sometime late winter or early spring. The man I have been in conversation with tells me he shoots 210-grain Barnes out of a 338 Ultra Mag, and as of now has never had one exit. The nilgai are seldom lost, but the bullets don't come out, in his experience.

To go chase nilgai with a standard cup and core bullet would be irresponsible, in my estimation.

So: do we need premium bullets? Not until the time comes that we do. When that time comes, I think we should be prepared by having them in hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
THE reason premium bullets were invented was because of failures that occurred with existing bullets. Playing the odds with conventional bullets will generally work, but there are occasions when a premium bullet makes the difference.

Pray tell, how do you define a "failure" and what makes a bullet "premium"?

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
He had just bought a beautiful 30-06 BAR. He missed several shots at deer at close range so I asked him how he had it sighted in. He said the store where he bought the rifle had bore sighted the scope for him. I offered to stop so he could sight it in but he refused.

So whether or not he used premium bullets had nothing to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
And I learned my lesson on a "lowly" impala. Shot him at 80 yards quartering towards me on the point of the shoulder. He went down like the proverbial sack of potatoes, BUT I recovered the bullet (Hornady Interlock) on the off side ham weighing just 70 grains from it's original 180.

So, he went down like a sack of potatos. How was that a failure? I shot one with a 250 gr. Hornady and the recovered fragments may have weighed less than 70 grains and I didn't complain about bullet failure. I used the same bullet on Zebra, European Fallow Deer and Red Hartebeest as well as on a bunch of other animals with complete success.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
BTW, Rem RN corelokts, and WW Power points are as good or better than the best of super premium bullets, they simply don't fail and the work from 3100 to 1400 FPS, and are the only two bullets that passed the Handloader magazine test of about 40 bullets a few years back..and that has also been my experience with these two fine bullets.

I haven't used WW Power Points so I can't comment but I agree on the Remington Core Lokts and they don't even claim to be premium. One of the cheapest bullets out there and for what I've used them in they're quite accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I think the premium bullets were developed because of the demands of the magnums. Standard bullets were coming apart at the light bullet/hyper velocity that the magnums were capable of.

Let's see, 3,200 fps out of a 30/06 (which has been out for awhile) with a 130 gr. bullet and 3,200 fps out of a 340 Weatherby Magnum with 200 gr. bullets. Somehow bullets of similar construction are OK for the '06 but will come apart in the magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
THE reason premium bullets were invented was because of failures that occurred with existing bullets. Playing the odds with conventional bullets will generally work, but there are occasions when a premium bullet makes the difference.

Pray tell, how do you define a "failure" and what makes a bullet "premium"?

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
He had just bought a beautiful 30-06 BAR. He missed several shots at deer at close range so I asked him how he had it sighted in. He said the store where he bought the rifle had bore sighted the scope for him. I offered to stop so he could sight it in but he refused.

So whether or not he used premium bullets had nothing to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
And I learned my lesson on a "lowly" impala. Shot him at 80 yards quartering towards me on the point of the shoulder. He went down like the proverbial sack of potatoes, BUT I recovered the bullet (Hornady Interlock) on the off side ham weighing just 70 grains from it's original 180.

So, he went down like a sack of potatos. How was that a failure? I shot one with a 250 gr. Hornady and the recovered fragments may have weighed less than 70 grains and I didn't complain about bullet failure. I used the same bullet on Zebra, European Fallow Deer and Red Hartebeest as well as on a bunch of other animals with complete success.



Let's see, 3,200 fps out of a 30/06 (which has been out for awhile) with a 130 gr. bullet and 3,200 fps out of a 340 Weatherby Magnum with 200 gr. bullets. Somehow bullets of similar construction are OK for the '06 but will come apart in the magnum.[/QUOTE]

I have hunted with a 30/06 and 300 mag off and on all my life. This statement about 130 gr. bullets not blowing up from a 30/06 does not coincide with my experiences.
Even 150's are bad about over-expansion out of a 30/06 unless the range is long enough that the velocity has been reduced.
I lost a real nice bear one time because a 220 gr. bullet fired from a 300 mag. over-expanded at close range. A premium bullet would have saved the day.

ALF, "Need", probably not! But, why not go with improved technology. Most of us drive modern auto's, use calculators rather than pencil and paper, digital cameras rather than an old "Brownie" , so why the heck would we not use the best bullet available?????? JMHO. memtb

I do not shoot light for calibre bullets nor am I impressed with hyper velocity but, from reading, it seems the standard bullets were coming apart. like shooting an SX bullet at top speed out of a 22-250 or Swift. IIRQ the first "premium" bullets had the core soldered to the jacket to prevent separation. I kinda think that too much was made of the slug slipping the jacket once the bullet was in the animal. Something of a marketing ploy. Sierra took a bad rap with their BT bullets. I kinda agree with the factory tech rep that asked "at what point in the dead deer, did the bullet fail?"

quote:

Originally posted by memtb:
ALF, "Need", probably not! But, why not go with improved technology. Most of us drive modern auto's, use calculators rather than pencil and paper, digital cameras rather than an old "Brownie" , so why the heck would we not use the best bullet available?????? JMHO. memtb

Perhaps, but how much pure shit is dumped on the consumers under the hype of "new and improved". I may be something of luddite but if I shoot xyz bullets and they are accurate and kill stuff handily, why should I change? How do you define "best"? Does the "best" bullet kill stuff deader?

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
THE reason premium bullets were invented was because of failures that occurred with existing bullets. Playing the odds with conventional bullets will generally work, but there are occasions when a premium bullet makes the difference.

Pray tell, how do you define a "failure" and what makes a bullet "premium"?

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
He had just bought a beautiful 30-06 BAR. He missed several shots at deer at close range so I asked him how he had it sighted in. He said the store where he bought the rifle had bore sighted the scope for him. I offered to stop so he could sight it in but he refused.

So whether or not he used premium bullets had nothing to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
And I learned my lesson on a "lowly" impala. Shot him at 80 yards quartering towards me on the point of the shoulder. He went down like the proverbial sack of potatoes, BUT I recovered the bullet (Hornady Interlock) on the off side ham weighing just 70 grains from it's original 180.

quote:

So, he went down like a sack of potatos. How was that a failure? I shot one with a 250 gr. Hornady and the recovered fragments may have weighed less than 70 grains and I didn't complain about bullet failure. I used the same bullet on Zebra, European Fallow Deer and Red Hartebeest as well as on a bunch of other animals with complete success.



Let's see, 3,200 fps out of a 30/06 (which has been out for awhile) with a 130 gr. bullet and 3,200 fps out of a 340 Weatherby Magnum with 200 gr. bullets. Somehow bullets of similar construction are OK for the '06 but will come apart in the magnum.

I have hunted with a 30/06 and 300 mag off and on all my life. This statement about 130 gr. bullets not blowing up from a 30/06 does not coincide with my experiences.
Even 150's are bad about over-expansion out of a 30/06 unless the range is long enough that the velocity has been reduced.
I lost a real nice bear one time because a 220 gr. bullet fired from a 300 mag. over-expanded at close range. A premium bullet would have saved the day.

How do you define bullet failure? When a bullet fails to meet marketing, performance, or quality claims by the manufacture.

I have a question for you, How do you know Why you lost your real nice bear if you were unable to do a postmortem ?

quote:

I have a question for you, How do you know Why you lost your real nice bear if you were unable to do a postmortem ?

Great question. Answer: He does not. He Cannot. While there might be great anecdotal evidence / observation, we just can't know for certain. I am sure of this, every bullet can fail our expectations. Why? Because our expectations are so varied and so broad. This discussion, while very valid, is like asking: "Do we really need 1/4-1/2 MOA hunting rifles?" or "Do we really need a load that delivers less than 8" of drop at 400 yards versus one that delivers 12" of drop?" I have only had one of those 1/2" rifles, maybe two so my answer is "no" because I have hunted very successfully without either of those two rifles for some time now. Also I know that if you can hold 8" of drop at 400 from field positions, you can also likely deal with and hold 12" of drop... and I know darned few folks judged by field accuracy could tell the difference between those two loads. I have made a habit of using Cast only loads in my Peep sighted 35 Whelen and low powered scoped 458 WM to hunt whitetail with over the last few years and am still filling the freezer. Have not missed one yet but if I do, it will be most likely that the rifle was not pointed at the target appropriately when I did NOT press the trigger cleanly or something to that effect. To end in a complete contradiction, I loved my 1/2" rifle with a 180 Barnes X at 2801 FPS on the same whitetail. Never missed one with that either. However the biggest bull Elk I have ever seen ran away unscathed when I shot that bullet into an Oak Brush branch hiding a couple of feet in front of the neck shoulder junction I aimed at with it. So; That bullet failed. It failed to penetrate the rock hard Oak Brush branch and continue on straight afterwards into where I expected it to land. Or it failed to take a jog around said branch and instead of where I aimed it, hit the bull in the Aorta confluence with the heart. Thoughtless of Barnes not to program that secondary trajectory in. I still have not had the chance to wipe that memory away with a happy one about Elk hunting. Happy shooting, hunting and debating all the great tools we have to enjoy our hobby fellows!

Because I found a 2.5" section of rib bone on the ground after the bear ran off. The shot knocked him down but he was up like a scalded cat and in high gear. My partner saw the hit, square in the ribs from very short range.

In answer to your PRAYERS, here are two situations. the first is a quote from Nosler reloading Manual Number One: "In the fall of 1946, a stubborn Canadian moose refused to go down after a direct hit from a 300 H&H Magnum bullet and John Nosler's search for a more effective hunting bullet began." the bullet that Mr. Nosler fired came apart on the exterior of the animal, failing to penetrate to a vital area. A thoughtful person would consider this to be "bullet failure"

Situation two: Jack O'Connor went sheep hunting and was using Bill Steigers' Bitterroot Bonded Core bullets and had shot a large ram. At a get-together after the hunt Jack was describing the bullets performance. At the time of the shot Jack was positioned above the sheep, who was standing in shale rock. At the shot rock "flew everywhere" even though he knew he had placed the shot directly into the sheep's chest. The first thought was that the bullet was so stout that it had failed to expand and had passed through the sheep with little effect. Bill pressed Jack- expecting to hear a story of how far they had to chase the now wounded sheep, "what did the sheep do" "what happened to the sheep?" "Oh," said Jack "he fell over"

Two cases, one where a "premium" bullet was needed and not present, another where one was present and may have not been needed but was entirely effective. So....

I grew up hunting with guys like that. I remember a close friend who had used the same box of cartridges for his 300 Savage for so long that the box was designating but he got a deer basically every year. He went to the range with me once and I don't ever remember him shooting at a target other than that one time. He was a pretty fair wing shot and as we were basically still hunting in the woods I think his instinctive technique was more important than pin point accuracy.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Because I found a 2.5" section of rib bone on the ground after the bear ran off. The shot knocked him down but he was up like a scalded cat and in high gear. My partner saw the hit, square in the ribs from very short range.

If we have hunted a long time, most of us have seen about everything in bullets and game. A 2.5" section of rib on the ground would indicate that he was indeed hit. Which rib? From which direction/angle? You said the bullet over expanded; is it possible that it did not expand at all and busted said rib and then sailed on through? How do we know for certain without the bullet? Was the bear not recovered because he did not die or because he could not be found? Not casting aspersions, just listing out the possibilities. I am quite comfortable hunting with nothing but RN or FN solids at moderate velocity, whether cast or jacketed or Monometallic. That really is not a premium bullet just a really fine penetrating bullet, leaving it up to me to assure it is directed through the vitals, effecting death.
Likewise, I have a cousin who has killed a semi load of elk with his 243 and the 85 grain Sierra HP bullet. Never seen it fail, close or far. His wife now uses it to kill elk. Great to have choices isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Because I found a 2.5" section of rib bone on the ground after the bear ran off. The shot knocked him down but he was up like a scalded cat and in high gear. My partner saw the hit, square in the ribs from very short range.

You probably hit him but that's pretty much all you know.

My partner saw me hit him, center of the ribs just behind the shoulder. You guys are going to believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not going to argue over the internet, but I'll guarantee you that had I been shooting a Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame, or Woodleigh Weldcore or similar bullet that bear would not have gone far.
The real need for a Super premium bullet occurs when shooting a magnum rifle and a shot at heavy game occurs at close range. Same rifle the next year I shot through 4 feet of moose at 50 yds. Shooting a 180 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
My partner saw me hit him, center of the ribs just behind the shoulder. You guys are going to believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not going to argue over the internet, but I'll guarantee you that had I been shooting a Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame, or Woodleigh Weldcore or similar bullet that bear would not have gone far.
The real need for a Super premium bullet occurs when shooting a magnum rifle and a shot at heavy game occurs at close range. Same rifle the next year I shot through 4 feet of moose at 50 yds. Shooting a 180 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

My Belief is that there is not enough evidence to say that you lost your bear because your bullet over expanded and failed to penetrate, and that you would have not lost your bear had you been using a "premium bullet".

We summarize events differently.

I'll put my two pennies into the pot.

Second year deer hunting my brother buys a box of 150gr power points for his 30-06. Since we were still fairly young, my dad placed us boys about 100yds apart on either side of him. Around 9:30 a nice buck passes broadside, and my brother took the shot. The buck reared up and started running like a bat out of hell, right past my dad (who was probably just waking up) and strait at me. I put my front bead on his chest and finished the job with my 'lowly' 30-30. When I gutted out the deer I noticed that my brother's bullet blew up on impact, and only few fragments reached one of the lungs.The deer would have eventually died from the wound, but it's not likely that it would have been recovered had I not finished the job.

Premium bullets are a bi-product of the magnum craze. As velocity gets higher and higher, bullet construction needs to be more robust to keep them from blowing apart. I try to keep impact velocity under 2600ft/sec. Keeps meat damage to minimum.