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I felt a new discussion was needed to clarify this long debated question. Many have asked the question, "How do you choose a rifle caliber intended for use on specific game animals?" Those asking the question have no problem divulging the criteria they use, but those to whom the question is posed seem either to not know the answer or don't want to answer. For purposes of this discussion, consider these factors as "given". 1. Range: 200 yards 2. Shot presentation: Broadside 3. Atmosphere: Calm What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...) 1. Prarie Dog 2. Coyote 3. Piggy 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) 5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs) 7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..) Some like African Game are shot at close range so ignore the "given" above and assume normally accepted conditions for the game. Thank you, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your families! | ||
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Prairie dog......223 Remington....Why...it's cheap to shoot, has enough power to geterdone at that range and just plain fun. Coyote.....again....223 Remington....why?...it has adequate power to cleanly kill coyotes at 200 yards.....and then some. Piggy.....My only experience with piggy is to run them down with dogs and handcuff them. I/We then sell them live to game farms. Whitetail/pronghorn/mule deer (I'll treat them all the same) Since it still has way more than 1000 ft-lbs of energy I'd not hesitate to shoot a .243/6mm Rem. Why....it has the energy to do the job and is easy to shoot making a slightly better chance of a clean kill due to precise placement. 500-1000 pound big game.....At 200 yards and a broadside shot I'd still be willing to use a .243...it has the energy to "geterdone"....my criteria of 1500 ft-lbs....or close enough and punching one through the rib cage isn't exactly a tough job. Dangerous game.....sorry....no experience....However it is my understanding that dangerous game is rarely shot at 200 yards....usually much closer and many countries that allow hunting of these animals require a .375 H&H as a minimum. Also, it's a steep price to pay to draw blood and lose one....you pay the $10,000 (or whatever the trophy fee is) just the same! The minimum will likely be a .375 H&H (because of the laws) and the shot will typically be 60 yards and less..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I go with Vapo on the 223 for P dog and coyote. 30-06 for everything else but the DG. Why? Because I like adequate energy with good SD. 375 for DG. Why? Because I don't like recoil. For simplicity sake, I have used the 375 H&H on everything on the list but P dog, because I have never had the opportunity to hunt them yet.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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W.D.M. Bell would use a 275 Rigby for all of the above.  | |||
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This sounds like some sort of prostitution ring.  | |||
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It's a very different way of having fun.  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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# 1 and 2 I’d use 222 or 223 # 3 and 4....25-06 # 5.....30-06 # 6.....300wm or 338wm # 7.....9.3x62 and 458 Lott | |||
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Your choices and reasonings would be appreciated clem... | |||
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Thank you. I really would like some detail on the reasons why you would choose the calibers. It is the main purpose of the question Again, thanks. | |||
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At a max range of 200 yds, calm wind a 223, 30-06 and 375 H&H would cover the above. Cheap, proven, effective. | |||
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1. Prarie Dog- 223 2. Coyote- 223 3. Piggy- 257R 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) 257R 5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) 257R 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs) 6.5x55 7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..) 9.3x62 Why? Because I have those calibers and I'm trying to match the caliber to the game. Those would be my minimum. I'd rather have the 6.5x55 for Mule Deer or the 338/9.3 for Elk. Never hunted dangerous game but I would want my PH to be backing me up with a cannon. | |||
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My selections don't have anything to do with science. I believe in caveman selection. I like bigger bullets for bigger creatures and I like a minimum impact velocity of 2000 FPS to ensure proper expansion. My preferred bullet weights. Varmints and Predators- I like a decent 55 gr bullet Deer/goats- I like a 115-140 grain bullet Piggy- 140 grain and up Elk- 200 and up Dangerous game- no real experience, not sure I would want to hunt them That is based on the rifles and cartridges I have. 223 257R 6.5x55 338 Fed 9.3x62 I would not feel the need to use a premium bullet for any of the animals listed using the minimum bullet weight I suggested. None of my cartridges are magnums so I would not expect any bullet failures at 200 yards. If I was using something smaller on Elk, I probably would consider a premium bullet. | |||
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Your selection criteria have a lot to do with science, realize it or not Thank you. | |||
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1. Prarie Dog- any fast steping 22 center fire, because the speed makes the impacts fun to watch 2. Coyote-Any thing that works on #1 works on Willy Coyote and of course so does any larger caliber 3. Piggy 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) 5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)---- These 3 aare lumped together, because what works on one works on the other. I have taken Pigs with a 22 LR and the 22 Magnum works. For the 2 Deer species even a 223 Rem with stouly constructed bullets will put them on the ground 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)-----I would use any caliber from the 6.5's on up with good bullets and not b concerned, because these have worked for decades 7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)-------- I have never ever hunted these species, but I have taken Bison and Assian Buffalo and Mooose and Grizzly Gear and One of my revolvers has worked to perfection for me   FPE would not be considered in my choosing of a suitible weapon for the task at hand _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Are those a new species of grizzly? I've never seen any with moose antlers before. | |||
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Thanks jwp, If a .22 LR works on pigs (remember the range is 200 yards) and you lump everything from mule deer on down with them, why move up to .223 for mule deer and antelope, whitetail? Also, if the .223 will work fine on a mule deer why would you move up to a 6.5mm when we move to elk, oryx..? | |||
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Why does he need to justify his decision? I'm sure he uses what he feels comfortable with. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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This is a forum. This is what people do....debate. | |||
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Maybe you should read the opening post before you grab your keyboard and start typing! | |||
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I'm not looking for justifications just the factors people weigh when making the decision. Read the original post/question please, and if you will, answer it. It will be helpful. Thank you in advance. | |||
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A lot of assumptions have to be made to answer a post like this, and one of them is... "I" will get to choose what bullet/load that will be fired out of each rifle. Here's the mininum i'd use, but not necessarily what i would use though... 1. 22WMR 2. .222 Rem. 3. .243 Win. 4. .243 Win. 5. 260 Rem. 6. 30-06 7. 9.3x74R DM | |||
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# 3-5, .25cal 85gn GsHV. 3200mv [.250sav] # 6, .323cal 160gn GsHV 2800mv [8x57] No interest in species #1,2,7. | |||
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I did read the post and the question was asked and answered. Maybe you should follow your own advice. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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prariedog 17 hornet with most any 20-25 grn bullet. why, I like the rifle and it works great to 200 yds coyote 17 rem, 223 ect. I've shot them with the 17 hornet to 125 yds, but am wary of to much vel loss and the bullets not exploding enough on some of our big yotes ( 40+ lbs) pigs and deer I lump together. Min for me at 200 yds is a 223 with a 64 grn win power pt. I've shot those bullets enough to know they will do the job, never used the x bullets as we dont along , oh, I'd avoid shoulder bones and the gristle plate on old boars.elk ect 6.5x55 with a 125 partition or 140 corlok shorten the range on DG but, lion react well to velocity, a 300 mag and a good swift, nosler ect of 180-200 grn will do fine, and the same goes for buff. I had a 1 shot kill on a buff with a 300 mag, and Elgin gates took loads with his 300 wthby. gates shot a couple , three ele with his 300 and 200 grn nosler partitions, but I'd feel better with a 9.3x62 or 375 styer min. | |||
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Well my boss uses a .416 Rem but I think I would go with a .375 H&H. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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I'm not sure a discussion of minimum caliber appropriate for a kind of game is that valuable. I will comment on what I have in the safe that I would use for each category. 1. Prarie Dog ... .223 Rem loaded with 55 gr NBTs 2. Coyote ... .223 Rem, 6.8x43, or 6mm Rem 3. Piggy ... best success with instant kills has been the 9,3x62 Would use anything from 6.8x43 to .416 Rigby 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) 6mm Rem, 30-30, 6.8 x 43, .308 Win, 9.3x62, 9,3x72R mostly depending on the weather conditions and lay of the land. I'd hate to fall on a really nice rifle going up very steep terrain, or carry a double rifle in the rain. 5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) .308 Win, 9.3x62, 9,3x72R mostly depending on the weather conditions and lay of the land. 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs) .338 Win Mag, 9,3x62, 9,3x74R, .376 Steyr, .375 H&H. I know these work well. 7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc. .416 Rigby, .458 AR, .470 NE Based primarily on the sought animal and the expected range. I believe in using a cartridge that will unquestionably get the job done. A wounded animal can go a long way. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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I don’t seek either debate, forums for me are to share and read, or back flushing the below choices through the known quantities of velocity or energy. That is not how I answer the questions asked but it is OK if you do. I thought long about developing a spreadsheet with the energy criteria numbers many folks have published for different game over the years but I decided against that. It would be interesting though if someone had the time. But I feared that I would find no place for my .44 mag handgun loads at any range or many 45-70, 45-90, type lead loads that shoot through the vitals on 1-6 at 200 yards very well. I remember Elmer Keith calling a 30-06 with a 220 Grain Sierra BT a “wonderfully flat shooting pest cartridge” and telling how well the old 45-70 loaded with Black killed Elk. Elmer’s world was ruled by the bullets he had available not the cartridges. He had some hot rod guns and developed some hot rod guns and blew up a couple hot rod guns. Elmer was responsible for the large numbers of .338’s of various types sold but Elmer’s bullet of choice was the 275 Speer Semi Spitzer. Bob Hagel was using the Nosler 250 Partition by the end of Elmer’s span and in fact was using the 210 NP as time went on with the same results. I shot a .338 Win Mag for some years with the 275 Speer SS and it was an elk killing machine though only traveling at just under 2600 fps from the 26” barrel of the Ruger #1 I shot it from. I certainly could kill elk with shoulder shots at any range I shot them from and a couple elk were as far as field condition shooting would permit. One shot at extended range at the trot up a hill went in the rear flank, through all that grass filled gut elk have, took out the lungs, broke the shoulder on the offside, exited the neck/shoulder junction proving Elmer’s point completely. Not wanting to speak for Elmer as I have a feeling that his “338 and 250 grain” minimum on Elk would not have changed if we had a 210 grain depleted uranium round for the 30-06, I can say that after leaving the 338 in the closet and taking a 30-06 with 180 Barnes X bullets myself, one could not say that the 338 had a penetration edge over the ’06 with Barnes in Elk. Nor could one say the reverse either. Both shot through and through elk bone and all. Premium bullets have made expanding bullets viable for the realm that only solids ruled in Elmer’s day. At least they have for me. I still love big game solids to by the way. RN solids is all I have ever had the pleasure of using. No doubt the flat nose and cup nose types are great. So: disregarding all matters that don't apply to killing the species in question, including legal or not legal, only considering the rifles I like and have at my disposal: 1 - 6: 260 Remington with bullets to match the penetration required: Varmint bullets on 1,2 Cup and core 140’s on 3-5, Premium 140’s on 5-6 leaning towards Barnes because Eland are bigger than buffalo in the shoulders, then finally On 7: my 30-06 with 220 Barnes or Woodleigh solids except for the cats which would receive a 220 NP. That is the minimum list and the reasoning is that I can reasonably guarantee my choice will deliver a lethal projectile through the vitals at all reasonable angles including your choice of Broadside at the range of 200 yards and have the added benefit of being easy to shoot well. Best regards, dmw "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Thanks for the effort it took for your thoughtful replies. More will be appreciated... | |||
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Around here pigs are a realively close range affair. I personaly would not use a 33LR of 22 Magnum for 200 yards shots on pigs. The Deer can be and are rutinely at farther distance than the pics in my area., that is why I went up. For the Elk and game in that range I personaly would prefer more bullet wieght and a bit more bore diameter than a 22 center fire and the 6.5mm and up calibers are time proven on like sized game around the world _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You are correct, i use what I am comfortable with. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You do realize that the reason making you decide to move up from the "33LR" or 22 mag was the lack of velocity which effects energy at range? Also, you do realize that the reason you prefer more bullet weight and bore diameter for elk at the range given is that you prefer more energy and momentum for elk, which in turn means your choice is predicated on the Taylor Index to some degree or any similar formula all of which you think are bullshit? Or don't you? | |||
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Prairie Dogs- .17 HMR kills 'em @ 200, but .204 with V-Max bullets hits like they're stuffed with TNT out to 400 yds., so .17 rimfire min/.204 much preferred. .204 FLAT out to 400. Coyotes- .17 rimfire still kills 'em @ 200, but not like at 100. Can shoot their eye out @ 100, more drop and less accurate @ 200. Still a minimum for me. .204 still preferred on coyotes, it's not as explosive as a .22-250 but will still gel their insides with a Blitzking or V-Max hit in either the chest or abdomen. Yet to see one take a single step hit either place. So, .17 rimfire min/ .204 better/ .22-250 orgasmic! Pigs- Have shot with whatever had in truck or Gator, from .17 HMR to 450/400 3 1/4" NE. Sensible minimum .204 given broadside, head or chest shots, but the .17 has dropped 2 in their tracks at NEARLY 200 yds., so while it qualifies it's not really sensible. If you don't hit an ear, neck, or spine, they are GONE! Gotta prefer the .204 or .22-250 here with the broadside caveat, otherwise would step up to .243 or better. Have killed a boatload with the .22-250 at lots of angles, as long as you hit vitals and don't go shooting them in the ass or legs or what have you. I keep my .204 loaded with the 32 gr pills, the ,22-250 with 55 gr V-Max and again, they are FLAT, FAST, and ACCURATE! Deer, Pronghorn, Mulies- Personally would use a 243- 264 as minimum, but only if considering any shot angles and more wind. Plus a better bullet, my preference being TSX's. If strictly @ 200 yds broadside, again a .22-250 would absolutely (and has) smite them dead, being fast, flat, accurate. Doesn't take much to penetrate 2" of ribcage and pulverize lungs. The bigger calibers can be as fast, as flat, and as accurate, and hit with a ton more energy as well as penetration, but @ 200 yds broadside, doesn't take any more than a .224 cal can deliver. I like the '250 over the .223 Rem every time I've cited it b/c it just hits harder and "shocks" better. 500-1000 lb game- MINIMUM with stated conditions, .264/ 6.5's of any stripe, but I prefer and trust the .30's (any of them from '06 up, my personal being .300 WSM) because these animals have thicker hides, heavier bone, and more lung capacity (note deeper chests) which means they can live longer with similar lung damage than smaller species, and therefore need better / deeper penetration even in the thoracic cavity. Better bullets I also consider a must on these animals, for the same reasons. Dangerous game- .375 H&H, premium bullets (TSX/Solids) both because it is legal minimum, and because it has the energy, proven penetration, and track record of getting it done reliably when life and limb are on the line. Accurate and easy to shoot well. More is probably better here, but not necessarily needed as has been proven by professionals for coming on 100 yrs. Long-winded, yes. But what the hell, we're reading on the computer tonight, so it's not really wasting anyone's time! I'm sure some will disagree with my answers, but I have successfully taken the listed animals with the minimums I have named. May not be my first choices, but with the "givens" they will do the trick. | |||
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This is my minimum due to my choices I have available 1.prarie dog....30-06/175gr berger 2. Coyote........30-06/175gr berger 3. Piggy.........30-06/175gr berger 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)...30-06/175gr berger 5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)....30-06/175gr berger 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)....30-06/175gr berger I have hunted with the 30-06 for more than two decades.I know what it is capable of and I know how to shoot it.Prarie dogs and coyotes I wouldn't eat and would make great practice for my hunting set up.More time on the gun with the set up you use regularly will make you more proficient. 7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)....I have never had a desire to hunt such but what I know of these particular critters,through reading only is this.If I had to take a 200 yard shot,I haven't done enough hunting and would come home empty handed,or continue hunting for a closer shot. "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,try orderin' someone else's dog around" unknown cowboy | |||
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Great post Aggie! | |||
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Thanks, Rcamuglia! Interesting topic, just really got me to thinking about all the great times I've had with a gun in my hand! (and at the reloading bench) | |||
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Thanks cottonstalk, In the original post question, I specified that African DG range was not 200 yards, but what is commonly done....about 50 yards. I really want to know what you would use as the minimum caliber and the reasons for choosing them for #'s 1 through 4 even if you don't want to shoot them or never have. I want to understand what criteria are used by different folks to make the decision. Thanks | |||
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1. Prarie Dog.......I have only shot a handful and it was with a .270 WSM 140 grn Accubonds and 30-06 with 150 grn Accubonds (Run what you brung) 2. Coyote........I have killed more of these than I can count with my truck gun (365 days a year loaded), .270 Win Sieera Game Kings 3. Piggy I have shot them with 7-08 all the way up to .45 Knight M/L 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.).243,7-08,.270 Win,.270WSM,.308,30-06,7 Rem Mag and .45 cal Knight M/L 5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) Never hunted them 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs).......just elk and all of mine have fell to my .270 Win and .270 WSM 140 grain Accubonds 7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc........never going to hunt them so I have no comment This is not my min. as you can probably see. It is what I have used and would use again. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I can tell you from the years that I spent in Alaska that the natives kill a lot of game with the 223 including the big bears Not sure about thier reasoning for the choice other than that is what they have and the ammo is cheap _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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