As an aside.....on the dangerous game thing.....

Ele and lion and buffalo and rhino and leopard are all quite different.....not only in size but in the way they are hunted.

Lion can be shot at various ranges while leopard are often shot out of trees with a bait and at roughly 60 yards.

Ele are frequently shot with frontal or side brain shots and I don't think Rhino are taken with brain shots to avoid damage to the horn!

While there's always the exception.....ele are taken with solids, buffalo are taken with soft points, lion and leopard are taken with soft points usually and Rhino taken with solids.

When one wants to shoot deep into a large animal like a Rhino he needs penetration more than mushrooming....when he shoots through thick skull to reach the brain at close range with an animal that is capable of stomping you into a raspberry jelly, he wants a lot of power but a bullet that don't expand....even if it misses the brain it can shock an ele enough to put him down if only temporarily.

If one was to bypass the law.....I'd use a smaller caliber on the leopard to avoid major hide damage....something like a .257 Roberts.....hell...they are easy targets in a tree and well under 200 pounds.....

The buffalo can be shot at much longer ranges and are typically body shots where the .375 H&H shines well.....long range.....helluva smack!

For the lion I'm picking the .375 H&H again because the shot can be long and they can be very large critters and they bite! Further I want twenty PHs backing me up with machine guns in .50 BAR.....those things are just plain scary!

Here's the surprise.....For the ele......30-06 with a 200 grain solid.....something I can shoot well because the actual target is the size of a football and I need to get through about four inches of bone to get there.....again...twenty phs backing me up with the BARs.

I've never hunted any of these but have seen some of them while hunting plains game.....and they can be damn scary and intimidating in physical size alone!

I don't own any of these calibers,at this time,except the .308, but I have in the past.

1.prarie dogs....22-250/40gr because 200yards is to far for my capabilities with a 22lr

2.Coyote.........22-250/40gr because I know it will work

3.piggy..........being there are several varieties and weights can very from under 100lbs to more than400lbs(ferals) a .308/168gr berger because you never know what size you will run into,and it's a caliber I am familar with.

4.White-tail,antelope...a 243/95gr berger would be my personal minimum the biggest reason is personal experience and those I trust,not those who write.

I think I get the point your trying to make rc,on this post and some others highly debated ones you have started recently or been a part of.But not everyone falls into the catagories percieved.Not everyone just flings lead.For instance my father purchased a 700ADL,in 30-06,from a department store in 1979.He used it once to take a buck and never fired it again.I acquired it at a young age and have taken coyotes,beavers,and more deer than I can remember,and a few black bears with this gun over the last 27 years.It'll shoot better than I can and easily puts three under an inch at 300 yards.I have taken deer out to 600 yards,lasered.With the right bullet I would go after anything including dangerous game with this gun.Confidence and time in the field and on the range ,and proper bullet placement can not be replaced by FPS,FPE or the writings of those trying to sell something,be it a magazine,the new super ammo,or the next new fangled mangum.JMO.

quote:

For the lion I'm picking the .375 H&H again because the shot can be long and they can be very large critters and they bite! Further I want twenty PHs backing me up with machine guns in .50 BAR.....those things are just plain scary!

Ganyana, stated that the most dramatic stop of a charging Lion that he ever witnesed was one that one of his clients stoped with one shot from a 7mm STW.

I just got to thinking about that pig scenario. I need to clarify my answers based on more information.

The feral hogs I have shot range from piglets of 10-15 lbs, up to my personal largest of about 475 lbs.

While it is still true that I shoot them with whatever I am carrying, as they are almost always "depredating" or causing range/ crop damage, I did not base my minimum on the 400 lb plus animals that I have shot. These have usually been shot while deer hunting, with larger calibers (still a few of this size with the .22-250 though). The smaller ones are generally 60-275 lbs, this seems to be a very common range that will almost always be seen together in a sounder. This general size was what I was referring to in my previous post.

I have never witnessed one of the truly massive, 700+ lb boars that occasionally get taken. These I would move up in category as well as caliber if I wanted to kill as opposed to simply shoot one,(all my minimums are based on clean, quick kills) as they will have an extremely thick,tough hide, lots of bone density, and triple the depth to common vitals of the thoracic cavity. An earhole shot would still take one, but smaller calibers tend to glance off of the sharp angle of skull, and that bone surrounding the brain is thick.

The minimum I'd choose for PDs would be the .17 Hornet or Bee, as they have plenty of power/destructive ability under the criteria. The rifles I'd take if I had to leave tomorrow, would be my .222 M700V and my HiWall .219 Improved Zipper either loaded with Speer 52gr HPs, because I can reach a lot further.

A coyote at 200yds is not hard to hit nor hard to kill. I've heard of a lot of shooters using 22LR or .22 Mag, but at 200yds I have my doubts for reliability, so as a minimum I believe the rifle I carried as a trapper/shooter, the .222, would be my choice. If I'm just dropping dogs, a Speer 52gr HP(I really like that bullet!) would be my pick. What I carry now, is a Mauser M98, built on a thumbhole stock for quick handling, with 20" barrel in a wildcat cartridge similar to the .250 Savage, so I can reach out farther.
Pigs would be in jeopardy if I carried a 6mm with heavy Partitions. Larger boars...I would say something with a heavier bullet would be better for penetration of the gristle-plate, even if that wouldn't be a real problem from broadside. I think one of the 6.5s or small 7mms would be my minimum. I have a Remmy M722 .300 Savage that will do if I were to go soon.
Deer and antelope at 200yds are not difficult so a 6mm has plenty of reach, most are plenty accurate, and the penetration with a c&c is adequate. My M722 Bob would come off my rack, with some 100gr Sierras in the magazine, and I would be a happy camper.
Where I hunt the deer are muleys which tend to be a little farther away, but if I'm pretty sure they're not going to be "out there," a 6mm or my Bob will work just fine.
Because I don't have my .264WinMag any more, nor a .270 or 7mm Mag, my .300 WinMag would be my choice, probably with a 165gr c&c.
I don't think that anything smaller than an '06(a .270, or .308 ahhh, same thing) should be used, but for an experienced shooter with a familiar rifle something smaller would be fine. A 150gr minimum would give enough penetration, and energy-dump. Again, my choice would be my .300WinMag. Nothing on this continent would make me hesitate to use this rifle, which I've carried since I built it in high school shop class.(I really must be old to have done THAT!) Because larger African antelope are on this list, I'd probably have 200gr Partitions in the mag.
With DG(African style) I know very little(read that as nothing)but the law saying a .375 sounds fine to me as a minimum. My bear-protection rifle would be MY pick. It is an M71 lever-gun in .375/348 Improved, and will send a Hornady 300gr RNSP downrange at 2300fps.
Have fun,
Gene

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

For the lion I'm picking the .375 H&H again because the shot can be long and they can be very large critters and they bite! Further I want twenty PHs backing me up with machine guns in .50 BAR.....those things are just plain scary!

Ganyana, stated that the most dramatic stop of a charging Lion that he ever witnesed was one that one of his clients stoped with one shot from a 7mm STW.

I don't doubt it at all! I have the RUM version. Awesome.

I still would feel more confident with a 12 ga. Browning Maxus with an extended 10 round magazine full of 00 buck or slugs for any charging DG!

Great post as well Gene!

Prairie dogs the min for me would be 17hmr with 17gr bullets @ 200y, the criteria would be I have tested it on them and it killed fine, the wind drift gets excessive fast at 200y but misses arent a huge deal on prarie dogs since they are so many.

Min for me for coyotes at 200 would be a 221 fireball, enough energy left for clean human kills and an acceptable level of drop and drift at 200y would be the criteria.

I havent had the chance on pigs yet but would use the same min as for whitetails.

Min for whitetail/antelope would be somewheres in the area of a 243 win or a 250 sav with bullets 100-120 grains and enough energy left for clean human kills at 200y and acceptable levels or drop and drift.

Min for large mulies would be in the area of 6.5-55swede or 260rem the criteria being the same as for whitetails and also the ability to send heavier bullets for deeper penetration.

Elk & Moose my min cal would be 30-06 because if I was ever lucky enough to have the oppertunity and got a draw for something that large I would not want to chance using anything smaller or less powerful. The ability to deliver heavy well constructed bullets that can penetrate deep with enough retained energy for clean human kills would be the criteria.

For dangerous africans I would bring a 378wby as a bare minimum if I was ever lucky enough to put one in my sights. Enough energy and penetration for clean human kills plus enough stopping power to stop a large dangeous african in the event of being charged by one.

Those would be the minimums I would be comfortable with, but I use larger diameter and more powerful cartriges in most cases than what I listed.

*humane

200 yards? where I hunt figure 400 to 600 and bring the healthy boy to pack it out of the canyon or hire a helicopter. Any of the modern cartridges are fine just match the bullet to the beast and the range.

Nice post ww

Michael,

Can you expand a little and be specific on how you arrived at your choices?

Much appreciated...

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks for the effort it took for your thoughtful replies.

More will be appreciated...

Sorry, I'll pass!

The idea of recommending any MINIMUM caliper for game never did sit well with me.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks for the effort it took for your thoughtful replies.

More will be appreciated...

Sorry, I'll pass!

The idea of recommending any MINIMUM caliper for game never did sit well with me.

I use the RCBS dial version...


But Ray,

You really need to re-read the question. I didn't ask for recommendations for minimum calibers on game.

quote:

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

I'm with ya on not using the "minimum". My question was in regard to how the personal choice is made and what factors a guy uses to make it.

Everybody has a "minimum caliber" for these targets in mind.

What are yours and how did you arrive at deciding upon them?

1 - Prairie dogs - 17 HMR
2 - Coyotes - .223 rem 45 grainers
3 - Hogs - .223 rem 62+ grainers
4 - Whitetails - .260 rem/25-06 120/100 grainers
5 - Mule Deer - 25-06/270 120/150 grainers
6 - Elk, etc... - 270/30-06 150/180 grainers
7 - Africa... - 30-06 180-220 grainers.

Prairie dogs do not require much energy to kill and the 17 HMR will get it done out to 200 yards. The 22LR could do it too but not as well.

Coyotes and Hogs should be in the same group and the 223 is perfect medicine for both.

Small whitetails or antelope are hunted differently so it would depend upon range. The 25-06 with 100 grainers is the perfect antelope round for open country but the small whitetail/black tail/coues deer are typically shot at closer ranges and can be in thicker cover where the 260 with 120 grainers are well suited.

Mule deer are just heavy bodied whitetail deer and the 270 has been heralded as the perfect caliber for em. I wouldn't use anything less than a 25-06 with 120 grainers but would prefer a 270 winchester with 150 grain Nosler Ballistic tips.

Elk and the like have been killed and continue to be killed with marginal calibers but I personally wouldn't use anything less than a 270 winchester but would likely opt for a 180 or 200 grain partitions or a 168 TSX BT from an 06.

Considering that the 7x57 Mauser was used extensively to kill all kinds of game including elephants it stands to reason that, without caliber limitations, one could continue to do so. I for one would not feel that comfortable with it on really dangerous stuff but would not be afraid of using an 06 with solids inside 100 yards on anything on that continent.

It is more about bullet than cartridge as the game changes. The cartridge limits the range but the bullet performance is what does the killing. using a 17 grainer for prairie, 55 grainers for coyotes and hogs, 100 to 120 grainers for small deer, 120 to 150 grainers for large deer, 150 to 200 grainers for elk stuff and finally make that 200-220 grainer a solid and all of Africa is in reach. This does not take into account a charging dangerous game scenario which would obviously require a larger caliber of some sort. This is the minimum that I would be comfortable using with an explanation.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks for the effort it took for your thoughtful replies.

More will be appreciated...

Sorry, I'll pass!

The idea of recommending any MINIMUM caliper for game never did sit well with me.

I use the RCBS dial version...


But Ray,

You really need to re-read the question. I didn't ask for recommendations for minimum calibers on game.

quote:

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

.....

Nope minimum is MINIMUM.

Ok

You really showed me "what for"!

quote:

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)

1. 223; because I don't trust a 22 at 200 yards.

2. 223; I'd like a little bigger, like a 243, but this is minimums not ideal.

3. 25-06; like the coyote, I'd like bigger, but we're doing minimums. A 270 sounds nice, for whatever reason, hogs always seem harder to kill if you ask me.

4. 243; shots on antelope can be long, but I don't consider deer or antelope too particularly difficult to kill.

5. 243; what applies to white tail applies to mule deer.

6. 270; elk, oryx and such are a little tougher than deer. I know less could work, but I feel this is an effective minimum.

7. 375 H&H; because it's the legal minimum for dangerous game.

I really appreciate all of the replies, but many are missing most of what I'm really interested in knowing; the reason for deciding that the chambering you list is adequate, but the minimum.

What characteristics of the chambering make it adequate but the next smaller inadequate?

For example:

One might say the 6 mm bullet in the .243 win is their minimum for mule deer but a .22 caliber bullet from a 22-250 is below their personal minimum because of:

1. Bullet weight

2. Available constructions

3. Scientific attributes such as max energy differences at 200

4. Velocity differences

Etc...

Also one might conclude for example that some chamberings of the same caliber may be acceptable but some may not simply because of the differences of each chamberings velocity potential with the exact same bullet.

How you arrive at your minimum is the thread's premise

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks for the effort it took for your thoughtful replies.

More will be appreciated...

Sorry, I'll pass!

The idea of recommending any MINIMUM caliper for game never did sit well with me.

I use the RCBS dial version...


But Ray,

You really need to re-read the question. I didn't ask for recommendations for minimum calibers on game.

quote:

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

.....

Nope minimum is MINIMUM.

.


Ray,

I'm not asking you to post a list of calibers you feel are inadequate. I want to know what everyone's minimum adequate choice is and how they decided it was whether they just reach into the safe and pull a rifle out blindly then hunt big game with it, or use detailed criteria and think it out.


If you believe a .50 BMG round is your floor for prarie dogs, please post it and tell me why. No judgements are being made, just gathering info

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)

You've said you are more interested in the 'reasoning' that goes into than the final 'answers', so here it goes. I find it a difficult question to answer as formulated (Have you stopped beating your wife?). One 'issue' regarding the question as formulated. When 'ranking' one cartridge / caliber vs. another in order to determine a 'minimum' what exactly is the basis? Is a .257 Weatherby 'more' or 'less' than .260 Rem? Going through and stating what I believe to be 'minimums' seems like a totally artificial exercise to me. I am interested in only a limited number of rifles / cartridges. So for me the real question is more like, is any one of those few 'appropriate' for given game. Since I hunt as a 'hobby', not as a primary source of food, I want it to be challenging, yet still enjoyable and at the same time 'ethical' (i.e. minimizing the risk of wounding and failing to kill).

Having said that, one of the primary considerations is my ability. A larger / higher velocity caliber / cartridge will not make up for a poor shot. So, I must first know my rifle / cartridge and be able to perform with it. Then (and only then) do I come to 'matching' the bullet with the intended game. Considerations such as the size / weight / 'toughness' of the game, compare to bullet weight, caliber, velocity and type (e.g. premium vs. 'standard' cup/core vs. solid etc.) So what I end up with is 'matching' cartridges I have / am interested in obtaining vs. the game.



1. Prarie Dog and 2. Coyote

.223 Rem, with a varmint bullet for 1 and a bit heavier more solidly constructed for 2 (for example I could easily go down to .204 for 1, but am just not really interested in that caliber / cartridge)


3. Piggy and 4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

.250 Savage (a bit surprized at some, those 'pigs' can get big)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) and 6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

.270 Win (variety of bullets depending on particulars)

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)

This is more 'theoretical' from my perspective. However, I would start with .375 H&H Mag - a 'legal' minimum in any case. For the thick skinned, I would go with something over .400 (would need to do some research first, maybe .458 Win Mag?) as I expect I would be firing heavy solids. As to another comment regarding a shotgun, my preferred 'last line of defense' would be an AR in .338 Fed. Against thick skinned game I believe the shotgun would not be especially effective.

I'll answer based on the rifles I own.
1. Prairie Dog- I have never seen one in the wild, but based on what I have read, I'd take my 223 with 50's and my 25-06 with 75's, or maybe my 243 with 58's

2. Coyote- I never hit one but I would use any of the above rifles/loads, and add that if I'm calling at night, my turkey shotgun might go instead. I have never called one in, so that is also conjecture.

3. Piggy- The one time I hunted pigs in Texas, I used my bow on one, a knife to finish off another one. Using a rifle, I would take just about anything from 243 up, whatever I feel I want to hunt with, something that has been neglected in deer season perhaps. Guys kill pigs with a 223, but I kill plenty of groundhogs with mine, so I'd give another rifle a chance.

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)-Mostly I'm an archery hunter, but I love rifle season, too. This year, opening day will be either 30-06 with 150's, 338 mag with 200's, or 35 Whelen with 200's. I'll try to work in my 243 (100's), 260 (129 or 140's), 44 mag (240's), 458 Win (405's) and a 308 (150's) My shotgun and slugs may get used where I have to (2B) and maybe my .45 flintlock.

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)-I have never seen one, but I'd use anything from 243 up to 338 win, whichever gives me confidence at longer ranges. Your 200 yard shot is long for me.

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)- Never hunted any yet, but I really want to hunt moose. I would take a 30-06 with 180's, 35 Whelen with 250's, 338 mag with 225's, or 458 mag with Barnes Originals 400's.

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..) My only big gun is a 458 Win Mag, so I'd ask on the africa forum for a bullet recommendation. I have a 1917 action that I would like to make a 458 lott some day, so maybe that.



Good discussion guys. Thanks for keeping it civil.

Thank you for all the replies.

The reason for the question was to "get inside the head" of hunters. Why does there seem to be such an expanse of different choices for the same game animal?

For example, why do some choose a .300 Winchester shooting a well constructed Big Game bullet for deer and yet others choose the .223 Remington?

In general, all of the answers reflected the concept of using progressively larger calibers and heavier bullets as the size of the game increased. Whether folks want to admit this or not, their choices reflected some of the publicized "mathematical formulas" that were developed to try to make these choices easier.

We have discussed some of them here lately. One that I feel shows considerable merit is Ed Matunas's Optimum Game Weight Formula. Much of the following that I will post is directly from Ed Matunas's article in Lyman's 47 edition reloading manual, chapter 19.

He begins the article by touching on the use of Kinetic Energy and how it is flawed in deciding which rifle to use to hunt. He, like many of the poster's replies here and on other threads, states that KE will not accurately forecast the performance of a specific cartridge in the game fields. His example compares the KE of the the 30-06 with a 125 grain varmint bullet at 2145 ft-lbs to the same 30-06's 220 grain big game bullet at a KE of 2216 ft-lbs. Are both good Grizzly loads? Don't bet your life!

He also discusses the often quoted 1000 ftlbs for deer and 1500 ftlbs for moose or bear as the standard. But the question remains as to the size of either animal. A 140 lb deer or a 300 lb deer? A 500 lb moose or a 1000 lb one? What about the hard angle shot?

He correctly states that KE soon becomes a weak argument when these questions are posed.

His model assumes the choice of a well constructed Big Game bullet. With the technological advancement in the bullet arena, smaller calibers have become viable choices with enough penetration to destroy the vital organs.

In his formula, many factors such as KE, Momentum, Sectional Density, Bullet Diameter, Bullet nose configuration, impact velocity canceled each other out. In his formula Bullet Weight plays the most improtant role. His formula correlates to what most experienced and observant hunters have fourn to be true in the field; heavy bullets for tough game.

quote:

Naturally one can find exceptions to every rule. I will not disclaim that Inuit's have killed polar bear with the 222 Remington rifles. Believe me, it has been done more than several times. I have corresponded with a gent who has taken quite a large number of elephant with the 350 Remington magnum, but this borders more in the area of stunt shooting.

What we are talking about is sporting applications, those circumstances where a hunter can place a bullet at the appropriate angle into the quarry's vitals under sporting field conditions. If broadside heart-only or brain-only shots are used exclusively, then obviously one could get along with less potential.

The OGW allows for the fact that it is occasionally sporting to take a hard quartering going away shot. Still if you are among those who will take very difficult shots, you will need to allow for some extra margin. In this case pick a load that will deliver a game weight perhaps 25% heavier than would ever be encounterd

Here are the answers to my original question as deduced by OGW:

1. Prarie Dog (3#).....22 Hornet, 45 grain varmint bullet

2. Coyote (35#)......22-250 Remington, 55 grain varimint bullet

3. Piggy (ferel pig, 125#)......243 Winchester 90 grain big game bullet or .257 Roberts 100 grain

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.).....243 Win, .257 Roberts, 250 Savage, 25-06 Rem etc.. 90 to 100 grain bullet

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs).....243 Win, .257 Roberts, 250 Savage, 25-06 Rem etc.. 100 to 120 grain bullet

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)....7mm Rem Mag/140's, .308 win/168's, other .30 cals mags with as little 150 grain bullet ..these are for the minimum 500# animal. As size increases so should bullet weight.

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)....(2,000 to 13,000 pound animals)....375 H&H on up with 250 grain bullets minimum for the 2K pound animals


I think that most of us with experience and common sense have a built-in OGW formula section in the brain. As with all brain function, not all are equal.

1-5,.257 roberts/.25-06,,,with what bullets,,,appropriate ones,,,why because they are appropriate in appropriate caliber,,, .416 for all the rest,,,with what/why,,,same as above.
Prost!!

The issue as far as I see it is that no matter what quantitative system one uses in one's own "internal OGW formula" the categories are decided on purely qualitative grounds.

What I mean is that a man who places his classes at 1000 ft/lbs for this and 1500 ft/lbs for that has chosen these energy levels not because they energy means anything in itself, rather than the cartridges that he would use generate about those energy levels.

The OGW formula was probably arrived at in the same way, ie massaged and tweaked until it gave results similar to what the the originator of the same would have expected anyway.

That said my choices, which are not just minimum but in my view minimum to get the job done reliably in most reasonable circumstances, are the following:

1. 223

2. 223

3. Our wild boar might be significantly different to your pigs but I would at least a 30.06 with decent/heavy bullets for Sus Scrofa

4. .243, though I prefer more as recoil below the 308/30.06 level is easily manageable.

5. 6.5x55 or 308. Mainly because I want the ability to bring my point of aim up and forward to pin them through both shoulders at last night. It's always handy to have the power and bullet weight to do this if the deer is by the edge of a wood and too far away for a reliable neck shot.

6. Happy with a 06, because I've tried it and it works.

7. 9.3 x 62 would work for this from what I hear, a 375 would be nice but not that much more gun than the 9.3. I suppose this where the 416 Rigby becomes so attractive.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
For purposes of this discussion, consider these factors as "given".

1. Range: 200 yards

2. Shot presentation: Broadside

3. Atmosphere: Calm

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)

1. Prairie dogs, I've shot a lot and they don't require much. I'd love to try a .14 or .17 caliber center-fire, but have taken them with a .17 HM2 and .22 WMR at 200 yards. For red mist effect .20 calibers work great, I've used from a .204 Ruger on up to a .50 cal ML to kill them. You know if you can kill a PD at 70 yards with an open sight ML and patched round ball you have found a good load.

2. Coyote, again not hard to kill but I'd run a .20 cal center-fire minimum on that as well.

3. Piggy, in your criteria I'd aim for the ear at 200 yards and I'd be happy with a .224 caliber that can use 55 grain bullets with a MV around 3000 fps for an easy trajectory to 200 yards. Only pigs I've killed have been with a .270 but same ear shot.

.4 & .5 fall in the same category for me, (pronghorn, deer, and black bear) where I hunt requires a minimum of a 6mm bullet at 70 grains with a KE of 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards per manufacture. 200 yards broad side, calm, I wouldn't hesitate to use my little 6X47 Rem, 70 grain NBT, MV of 3066 fps. I'd prefer the .243 Win in most situations though.

6. Elk is the only one I have experience with but I only need an 85 grain 6mm bullet to be legal again. For your criteria again I'd be happy with a premium 6mm bullet in the 100 grain range in a .243 Win or 6mm Rem. Elk are rarely that easy so I usually carry a .270 Win and 150 grain bullets but now that I have a 6.5X55 I'd be happy with that and a premium 140 grain bullet.

7. DG never done it, but I'd go .375 caliber as that is what I own and is the minimum calbier in most countries. Probably in a .375 Ruger since that is what I have. But if I was going to hunt them then I could probably afford a new rifle as well and the .416 Rigby looks cool to me.

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)


Prarie dog = .22 Mag

Coyote = .17 HMR

Piggy = .223

Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) = .243

Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) = .25-06

Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs) = .270


African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..) = .300 Weatherby Magnum (you said minimum & this would be my absolute minimum, but would rather have something larger)

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

For purposes of this discussion, consider these factors as "given".

1. Range: 200 yards

2. Shot presentation: Broadside

3. Atmosphere: Calm

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)


Some like African Game are shot at close range so ignore the "given" above and assume normally accepted conditions for the game.

Thank you, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your families!

I'll answer based on what I own at the moment: 243Win, 300WM, 375H&H, 404Jeff (243 is a Rem 788, all others M70 classics)

1-4: 243 (smallest I own)

4-5: Depending on my mood of the day either the 243 or the 300WM, you asked for my reasoning , and it would really depend on my mood that day.

6: 300WM or 375H&H once again depends on what mood I'm in, and to a degree what I happen to have in my hands at the moment, especially in Africa where you never know what's around the corner.

7: 375 or 404 Jeff: even more so depends on what is in my hands at the moment. A PG hunt could suddenly turn into a DG hunt or vice versa.

quote:

6: 300WM or 375H&H once again depends on what mood I'm in, and to a degree what I happen to have in my hands at the moment, especially in Africa where you never know what's around the corner.

7: 375 or 404 Jeff: even more so depends on what is in my hands at the moment. A PG hunt could suddenly turn into a DG hunt or vice versa.Caleb

That's what I call using your built in OGW!

For everything under 500 pounds minimum would be a .223.

For the rest a 30-06.

Rationale: I can get the job done or pass depending on presentation with those calibers. Without further qualifications on the shoot, I assume the decision to pull the trigger or not is entirely mine, and you want the minimum I would use under conditions of my choosing.

1. Prarie Dog 270 Win Sierra 90g HP

2. Coyote 270 Win Sierra 90g HP

3. Piggy 270 Win 130g Nosler Partition

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) 270 Win 130g Nosler Partition


5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) 270 Win 130g Nosler Partition



6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs) 270 Win 150g Nosler Partition


7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..) 375 Weatherby for Brown Bear, Lion, etc. 500 Jeffery for the big stuff

quote:

For everything under 500 pounds minimum would be a .223.

For the rest a 30-06.

Geez,

Get a grip!

1. Prarie Dog (3#).....22LR and a 223Rem with a 50gr B-Tip.

2. Coyote (35#)......223Rem and a 50gr PLHP Rem, a 22-250 Remington with a 55gr PLHP Rem, or a 243Win with a 75gr Sierra

3. Piggy (ferel pig, 125#)......Now days, a lot of folks use a BIG Knife and Stab them through the Heart when running Dogs in the South. I prefer a 44Mag Revolver with a 250gr Hard Cast Lead Bullet or a 240gr Silouette(Jacket over the Front like a FMJ) and/or a 30-30 with a 170gr Hot-Cor.

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.).....7mm-08 with q 130gr Hot-Cor or SPBT, the 308Win with a 150gr or 165gr Hot-Cor or SPBT and many rifle combinations from there up.

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs).....308Win with a 150gr or 165gr Hot-Cor or SPBT and many rifle combinations from there up.

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)....I won't be Hunting Africa, but for 500# Bears here in the USA, I'd go with my 350RemMag and 200gr original Fred Barnes Bullets, one of the 300Mags with 180gr Partitions or a 338WinMag with 210gr Partitions would be right nice ..these are for the minimum 500# animal. As size increases so should bullet weight.

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)....(2,000 to 13,000 pound animals)....I won't be Hunting them, but if I did, it would be with a 416RemMag with 400gr Bear Claws and the 400gr Tungsten Solid African Grand Slam.

quote:

For purposes of this discussion, consider these factors as "given".

1. Range: 200 yards

2. Shot presentation: Broadside

3. Atmosphere: Calm

What is the minimum caliber you would hunt each of these animals with? Also, please discuss the factors that determined the choice. Please discuss the limiting factor(s) for each in its use (ie. bullet selection, any quantitative properties of physics such as energy, momentum, etc...)

1. Prarie Dog

2. Coyote

3. Piggy

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.)

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs)

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)

------------------------------------------------

1)Prarie Dog, I was out shooting PD Wed and used a 222mag(50gr HP) and 223(52gr HP) most shots were 100/200yds. Sometimes I'll get alittle volume shooting so good to take along extra rifle or two and let one cool down.

2)Coyote, I'll use a 22Br(50gr HP) most times my shots are longer than 200yds. bullet

4)Antelope, I'm leaving Sun have an antelope tag that needs filling and I'll use a 284(160gr AB) hoping for a longer shot than 200yds.

5)Mule Deer, Took a nice buck this year less than 100yds in the timber with 30-338mag. I hunt country that you can get longer shot than 200yds so want enough rifle to cover that yardage also. I also take along a back up rifle this year was the new 284. I used a 165gr bullet in the 30-338mag and 160gr in the 284.

6)Elk, Cow tag--Used a 35WhelenAI(225gr AB) and back up was a 30-06(150gr E-Tip). Bull tag--30-338mag(180gr Rem) back up 270WSM(140gr TSX)

I hunt alittle more timber on my cow hunts and I more open on a bull tag.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs)....I won't be Hunting Africa, but for 500# Bears here in the USA, I'd go with my 350RemMag and 200gr original Fred Barnes Bullets, one of the 300Mags with 180gr Partitions or a 338WinMag with 210gr Partitions would be right nice ..these are for the minimum 500# animal. As size increases so should bullet weight.

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..)....(2,000 to 13,000 pound animals)....I won't be Hunting them, but if I did, it would be with a 416RemMag with 400gr Bear Claws and the 400gr Tungsten Solid African Grand Slam.

I have no idea how you answered these without mentioning the .270.

quote:

quote:
For everything under 500 pounds minimum would be a .223.

For the rest a 30-06.



Geez,

Get a grip!

OK. I own Savage FVSS in .223 that handles a BLC-2 load pushing 70 grain TSXs out at 3000 and produces dime size groups. I have a pretty firm grip on the reality of that gun handling 400 lb animals.

If Bell can shoot not just an elephant, but a lot of elephants with a 7x57 and old bullets, and our own Saeed has stated he'd be OK with standing a Buff charge with a 270 AI, The least I can do is man up and do my part with an '06 loaded with solids or heavy TSXs.

Natives in Alaska have and continue to kill big bears with .223s. Not something I am interested in trying. I do hunt in Minnesota, I have killed deer over 300 pounds. I would be far happier using my Savage .223 and the 70 grain Barnes on them than a whole lot of more "conventional" deer guns. JJ Hack seems to do a decent enough job with an '06 on large plains game. I would not say that the choices I made were the best choice to do the job, but they are the minimum I be OK standing behind.

Does my answer not fit your question or do you still think my grasp of the situation is improper?

People may be taking this thread too literally. I believe the intent was to determine your criteria for different animals.

If you were going on a hunting trip to hunt X, what would be the minimum you would take and feel confident?

If I was walking through woods hunting rabbits with my 22LR and a bear attacked, what would I do? Shoot it with my 22lr. If I didn't have a gun, I would grab a sharp stick.

Can you kill a grizzly with a sharp stick? Yes, if you destroy the vitals. Is it my minimum to go Grizzly hunting?

No.

quote:

..... our own Saeed has stated he'd be OK with standing a Buff charge with a 270 AI, The least I can do is man up and do my part with an '06 loaded with solids or heavy TSXs.

I would love to see some video of a guy using either of these combinations to stop a charging Cape Buffalo. It would be quite entertaining and qualify for the "Darwin Award" of the year.

If you decide to do it, make sure your "affairs" are in order and bring a good camera man.

quote:

I would love to see some video of a guy using either of these combinations to stop a charging Cape Buffalo. It would be quite entertaining and qualify for the "Darwin Award" of the year.

If you decide to do it, make sure your "affairs" are in order and bring a good camera man.

How about this...

I own a Remington 760 in 30-06 that shoots into an inch easily and is not picky about loads. I would happily stand behind that gun to stop any bear or a Cape Buffalo. It's got the right glass, there are plenty adequate bullets available, it offers a fast accurate second shot and more.

Frankly, the bear with it's greater speed would be more of a worry than stopping a buff. There's been a whole lot of bears done in with an '06 with cup and core bullets.

You want ideal for the job ask for ideal. You asked for minimum. I have killed a holstein bull with a .22 lr. While they may not be quite so well put together, they're comparable in size and I've know more than a couple that were extremely dangerous, and I know of neighbors killed by them.

Well, since you said what would "you" choose, it leaves a couple of caveats- namely, I have one of whatever, and that I have enough experience to justify whatever I am shooting. Given that...

Prairie Dog- I would say a .22LR. I have shot some with a .22 at that range, and while the drop is extreme, there is nothing better for working on your long range shooting. I realize that drop is a matter of feet, but if you hit one in a vital area with a 40 grain lead solid, its dead- just not explosively as so many p-doggers want. If I was shooting in the attempt to get as many as I could, then a .223 with a 55 gr nosler ballistic tip as the BDC on my heavy barrelled AR is right on with this, it groups the smallest of the true varmint bullest in that gun, and at 200 will give excellend expansion.

Coyote- Again, it depends. If we are hunting early season to get depredating 'yotes the above .223 AR combo would be fine. Late season, with getting a hide an issue, I would use a 6.8 SPC with FMJ bullets- slow enough that really ugly reactions if I hit a bone are not there, while enough kinetic energy that if it is hit in the chest it won't go very far.

Hogs- never hunted them. If I was hunting for meat, From what I have heard, I would use a .25-06 with a Barnes X bullet load- because it is plenty accurate, I would not be worried about whether or not it would get complete penetration, and I have a bunch of that bullet. This is the only one I am pretty sure I would adjust downward once I get experience with the game. If it was for eradication/varmint purposes then a .223 with a FMJ load would be fine- decent penetration, and since it shoots well, high confidence the animal is dead, even if I can't find it.

Whitetail and Antelope- These are exclusively game animals to me. Maybe someone else will cull shoot with a .223, but for me a .25-06 is minimum with the above mentioned 100 gr TTSX bullet. I don't own a 6mm, otherwise this would probably be fine. Realistically, I usually choose to hunt deer and antelope with a .30-06 because the rifle is lighter.

Mule Deer- The fact that these can get longer ranged than whitetails in my experience would lead me to choose the .30-06 because my wind reading skills are not that good. The .25-06 seems to have a bit more wind drift than the .30-06, so if I'm hunting it gets the nod- the .25-06 will do just fine with your specified conditions, and thus is the true minimum for me, but practically its a .30-06 as a minimum.

Elk- Another animal I have not hunted. Given my experience with African game though, a .30-06 at the distance and presentation that you mention with a 180 grain TTSX or Swift A frame would be fine. The A frame typically shoots better in my rifles than the partition, and I have never been that wild about the fact that the front core of the partition sprays all those lead fragments in my dinner.

When you start talking about moose and big bear (brown or grizzly) I would say the minimum that I have is a .330 Dakota, which is essentially a .338 mag, using 250 grain A frames, even though they are typically shot much closer.

For the African PG, I am going to give a bit of a different answer. I would state that for PG, and DG my minimum is a .375 H&H with a 300 grain TSX. The reason being is that I haven't hunted PG on farms, and my rule is to never hunt with something that will not kill the biggest animal that might hurt me when I am there. I view the .375/300 with a premium as the lightest combo I would consider for elephant, so that is what I shoot PG with- if you have that gun in hand and a Musth-crazed Ele decides to smush you, you likely have only one chance to stop it with what you have in hand. If I was deliberately hunting Ele, as you would deliberately go into a herd there, then a .416 Rigby with 400 grain solids or a .470 double with 500 grain Northfork FPS's would be the least I would use. Penetration is everything here.

I would also note that I use premium bullets on pretty much any hunt. I want the thing to work even if I screw up and need the penetration and expansion. It's not to say a conventional bullet won't work, but the cost per round for hunting ammo is an insignificant part of the hunt (even local hunts- after you figure gas, license, equipment costs, etc.) so the $15-20 for a box of bullets (if you handload) or $25-30 a box of ammo (factory) for the 1-2 shots you will make on game is nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
If you decide to do it, make sure your "affairs" are in order and bring a good camera man.

If you decide to do it, make sure your "affairs" are in order and bring a good slow camera man.