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Originally posted by rcamuglia:

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..... our own Saeed has stated he'd be OK with standing a Buff charge with a 270 AI, The least I can do is man up and do my part with an '06 loaded with solids or heavy TSXs.

I would love to see some video of a guy using either of these combinations to stop a charging Cape Buffalo. It would be quite entertaining and qualify for the "Darwin Award" of the year.

If you decide to do it, make sure your "affairs" are in order and bring a good camera man.

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Well, since you said what would "you" choose, it leaves a couple of caveats- namely, I have one of whatever, and that I have enough experience to justify whatever I am shooting. Given that...

Prairie Dog- I would say a .22LR. I have shot some with a .22 at that range, and while the drop is extreme, there is nothing better for working on your long range shooting. I realize that drop is a matter of feet, but if you hit one in a vital area with a 40 grain lead solid, its dead- just not explosively as so many p-doggers want. If I was shooting in the attempt to get as many as I could, then a .223 with a 55 gr nosler ballistic tip as the BDC on my heavy barrelled AR is right on with this, it groups the smallest of the true varmint bullest in that gun, and at 200 will give excellend expansion.

Coyote- Again, it depends. If we are hunting early season to get depredating 'yotes the above .223 AR combo would be fine. Late season, with getting a hide an issue, I would use a 6.8 SPC with FMJ bullets- slow enough that really ugly reactions if I hit a bone are not there, while enough kinetic energy that if it is hit in the chest it won't go very far.

Hogs- never hunted them. If I was hunting for meat, From what I have heard, I would use a .25-06 with a Barnes X bullet load- because it is plenty accurate, I would not be worried about whether or not it would get complete penetration, and I have a bunch of that bullet. This is the only one I am pretty sure I would adjust downward once I get experience with the game. If it was for eradication/varmint purposes then a .223 with a FMJ load would be fine- decent penetration, and since it shoots well, high confidence the animal is dead, even if I can't find it.

Whitetail and Antelope- These are exclusively game animals to me. Maybe someone else will cull shoot with a .223, but for me a .25-06 is minimum with the above mentioned 100 gr TTSX bullet. I don't own a 6mm, otherwise this would probably be fine. Realistically, I usually choose to hunt deer and antelope with a .30-06 because the rifle is lighter.

Mule Deer- The fact that these can get longer ranged than whitetails in my experience would lead me to choose the .30-06 because my wind reading skills are not that good. The .25-06 seems to have a bit more wind drift than the .30-06, so if I'm hunting it gets the nod- the .25-06 will do just fine with your specified conditions, and thus is the true minimum for me, but practically its a .30-06 as a minimum.

Elk- Another animal I have not hunted. Given my experience with African game though, a .30-06 at the distance and presentation that you mention with a 180 grain TTSX or Swift A frame would be fine. The A frame typically shoots better in my rifles than the partition, and I have never been that wild about the fact that the front core of the partition sprays all those lead fragments in my dinner.

When you start talking about moose and big bear (brown or grizzly) I would say the minimum that I have is a .330 Dakota, which is essentially a .338 mag, using 250 grain A frames, even though they are typically shot much closer.

For the African PG, I am going to give a bit of a different answer. I would state that for PG, and DG my minimum is a .375 H&H with a 300 grain TSX. The reason being is that I haven't hunted PG on farms, and my rule is to never hunt with something that will not kill the biggest animal that might hurt me when I am there. I view the .375/300 with a premium as the lightest combo I would consider for elephant, so that is what I shoot PG with- if you have that gun in hand and a Musth-crazed Ele decides to smush you, you likely have only one chance to stop it with what you have in hand. If I was deliberately hunting Ele, as you would deliberately go into a herd there, then a .416 Rigby with 400 grain solids or a .470 double with 500 grain Northfork FPS's would be the least I would use. Penetration is everything here.

I would also note that I use premium bullets on pretty much any hunt. I want the thing to work even if I screw up and need the penetration and expansion. It's not to say a conventional bullet won't work, but the cost per round for hunting ammo is an insignificant part of the hunt (even local hunts- after you figure gas, license, equipment costs, etc.) so the $15-20 for a box of bullets (if you handload) or $25-30 a box of ammo (factory) for the 1-2 shots you will make on game is nothing.

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what do you think of the .270 or 30-06 as a "Charge-Stopping Rifle?"

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Since you have lots of African Dangerous Game Experience, what do you think of the .270 or 30-06 as a "Charge-Stopping Rifle?"

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Originally posted by miles58:

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Since you have lots of African Dangerous Game Experience, what do you think of the .270 or 30-06 as a "Charge-Stopping Rifle?"

If Saeed were to be backing me up with his .270 AI and I was going to try to drop a buff with an '06, I would be perfectly happy with his .270 as a charge stopper.

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Originally posted by vapodog:

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what do you think of the .270 or 30-06 as a "Charge-Stopping Rifle?"

If my PH is armed with a .270.....I'm going to ask for a different PH!!!!!

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Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

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Originally posted by vapodog:

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what do you think of the .270 or 30-06 as a "Charge-Stopping Rifle?"

If my PH is armed with a .270.....I'm going to ask for a different PH!!!!!

Some need more protecting that's for sure.

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quote:
Originally posted by miles58:

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Since you have lots of African Dangerous Game Experience, what do you think of the .270 or 30-06 as a "Charge-Stopping Rifle?"



If Saeed were to be backing me up with his .270 AI and I was going to try to drop a buff with an '06, I would be perfectly happy with his .270 as a charge stopper.



As long as the bullet was adequate to short circuit the Central Nervous System I'd have no qualms either

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Originally posted by crbutler:
The .30-06 or .270 as a stopper is a last gasp- if you have it, well, its better than a prayer alone.

Yes, Bell shot elephant with a .275. That was Bell.

Quite frankly, the rest of us ain't Bell. I really doubt that Saeed (since several take his name here) would deliberately step into a DG hunt with a .270 or a .30-06 and want to stop a charge with it. Many have said that if you never miss, you just haven't hunted. I have missed (more than I like to admit.) I will say on buffalo, a suboptimal hit with a .416 seems to slow the animal up more than a lesser gun in the same spot will.


Shot placement is still critical, but the bullet still needs to penetrate to work.


Exactly......



It's my opinion, but a PH who backs up a hunter with less than a .416 of some stripe is either inexperienced or just starting out and doesn't have anything heavier.

Ganyana is a very experienced Afican hunter and PH and his heavy is a 9.3 I would not call him inexperienced and he sure as hell ain't just starting out.

In fact Ganya wrote that he has stop 4 buff charges 2 with the 7.62 NATO (308) and 2 with the 9.3.

Close range charges are stoped with CNS shots

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But as I recall, he said this happened while culling.

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Again, I prefixed this with that it is my opinion.

Can a buffalo be killed with a lesser caliber? Sure.

In my opinion its not a good idea. Lots of risk that you can realistically avoid by being properly equipped for the task at hand.

Lots of elephant have been killed by the AK47. Is the 7.62x39 FMJ round and adequate DG round? Same circular logic.

As to that, why do you have your tag line about the .45 and the 9mm?

Isn't this entirely the same issue? In my Forensic Path rotation it sure seemed that a .22 rimfire is a good self defense people killer using the logic you are espousing here.

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Originally posted by miles58:
The context of the discussion is what is the minimum. It is not what is a backup rifle. It is not what is a recommended rifle. It is not what would be anyone's preference.

If you have to consider taking whatever shot you can under whatever conditions exist, that makes a lot of difference. If you have a backup in whom you have confidence that makes a lot of difference.

Farm kids see a lot of beef hit the ground and in that context, anything bigger than a .22 LR is just as wrong as going after a buff with a little gun.

I would never intentionally head out to kill a buff with an '06. But... if I had the right bullets and I needed to I wouldn't give it a second thought. In the example I used of the bear, in my hands a heavy rifle in a bolt action isn't going to be any more effective than an '06 with heavy enough bullets. If I don't put the bullet where it needs to go I am likely to die. I am the shooter in either case. My skill is the same. A properly placed bullet out of my pump 30-06 is going to kill as well as a properly placed bullet out of my 300 WM. If I mess up with the 30-06, the same mess up with the 300 WM will likely have pretty much the same effect. The 30-06 pump will offer me a lot faster second shot on target that the bolt action 300 WM or any one of my bolt 30-06s. The difference between a 30-06 and a .375 with a properly placed well considered shot, particularly a CNS hit is almost non-existent. Mostly the difference comes down to when you screw up there is more possibility of a bigger gun having a chance at righting the wrong. Not a situation you ought be in to begin with.

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Originally posted by crbutler:

A shot with a big bore rifle will drop a buffalo hit in the heart lung area much more quickly than a 30 caliber shot will. Given the mayhem that a buffalo can cause when its dead on its feet, using a large bore makes a heck of a lot more sense than a small bore....

...The reason folks like Seyfreid like smaller bore guns as a last resort is that the idiot hunter did not learn to use his mid or large bore before the hunt. IMO, anyone can learn to shoot a .375 acceptably well to hunt. If you are unwilling, don't hunt Buff/Lion/Elephant/Rhino....

...Don't give some apocryphal story about a .30/06 will work because (insert PH here) has done it.

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Originally posted by Trax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crbutler:

Bell shot unaware animals as a ivory hunter.

all of his 1400 ele were unaware of his presence before the shot?

Hunting unhunted (for the most part) elephant that were not charging him. He wrote about running up to them and shooting them from behind with his unique rear brain shot.

or You get a choice of Harry Selby with his .416 or Bell with his .275.

Selby .416
I would too.

Remember, he chose the .275 as his elephant gun because it had the best penetration with the long heavy solids that were the best available at the time.
IIRC, Bell found 6.5x54ms rather effective and satisfactory in penetration [some 300 ele], but changed to 7x57 simply because 6.5 ammo of the day was unreliable.

Wasn't that what I said? He used the .275 because it was what he found would best do the job of reliably penetrating elephant skulls? I also suspect the fact that he had to carry all that ammo may have paid in to his decision tree somewhere.

[QUOTE]

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Yes, I chose that word...

I really find a quote of someone as experienced as Ross Seyfried or Ganyana "recommending" the use of a 30 caliber rifle for Buffalo so being of questionable veracity and authenticity.

Seyfried and Jeff Cooper were somewhat close. Cooper felt the 460 G&A was the smallest gun one should use on buffalo. I doubt that any african PH would prefer that a client who was capable with a .375 use a small bore for buff.

The quote of Allen Day using a mid bore for buff neglects the fact that he had a big bore that was unable to hunt, and he felt more comfortable with his gun than what the PH could provide as I recall the story.

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Originally posted by crbutler:
As to answering your question, I assume you are talking about Bell as your PH.

Bell shot unaware animals as a ivory hunter.

I rather doubt that he would take a job as a guide for some hunter and use the .275 if he was only going to back up someone else. As I recall, he did own heavier guns, he just didn't use them on elephant because the ammo of his day was not capable of the desired degree of penetration.

A better question is "your PH has a FN FAL and a .470 NE. He is willing to take either to back you up. He professes he is capable of shooting to 1" at 50 yards with both. Which would you rather he use?"

or You get a choice of Harry Selby with his .416 or Bell with his .275.

Let's compare folks of reasonably similar competencies here.

Of course I would prefer someone who is a crack shot, and been there to some american who showed up in africa and is capable of a 2.5" group at 50 yards from a rest, which I would say is better than most client hunters.

Remember, he chose the .275 as his elephant gun because it had the best penetration with the long heavy solids that were the best available at the time.

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1. Prarie Dog .17Rem 25Hp 'cause it makes a big splatter

2. Coyote .223 any pill will do. Good dog round.

3. Piggy .243 100 Spt. Must be small pigs in the states to use anything else or you are taking head shots.

4. Whitetail, Antelope (150 lbs.) .243 100 Spt. I keep telling myself it is 200 yards broadside.

5. Mule Deer (200-300 lbs) 7x57 140 Spt. No reason, it just works.

6. Elk, Oryx, Large African Plains game (500-1000 lbs) 7x57 154 Interlock. African game is not as tough as the industry would have us believe.

7. African Dangerous Game, (Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, "ele", etc..) .416 Rigby 400 RNSP/Solid. If it can see me at 200 yards it can eat or stomp me and I want a big hole going in and out with plenty of Ka-thump.

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Originally posted by miles58:
I will provide my rationale for my choices when you remove the Leopold quote from your signature. I find your actions in this forum and that quote to be incompatible and offensive. When you've gained some appreciation for the content of that quote, your use of it will cease to offend me.

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Originally posted by miles58:
Well, I guess we know why you made the post and the comments now.

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Originally posted by miles58:
Go read the thread and consider fairly your response to people who agreed with your notion and those who did not.

I submit that you were looking for affirmation and you continue to mistake disagreement with disapproval. The very antithesis of Mr. Leopold's thought in your sig.

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quote:
Originally posted by miles58:
Go read the thread and consider fairly your response to people who agreed with your notion and those who did not.

I submit that you were looking for affirmation and you continue to mistake disagreement with disapproval. The very antithesis of Mr. Leopold's thought in your sig.



Leopold's quote has to do with wildlife ethics in the field and the fact that one's conduct in the field is dictated by his own conscience since, when you are alone, there is no one to influence your decisions....just like it says.

How in the heck to you connect that with me agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's choices here?

I was not looking for affirmation of my opinion at all!

I am trying to understand the rationale of folks choices that would differ from mine. If you check, I have continually asked for folks to be clear on HOW AND WHY they came to their decision.

I hope to learn something and think everyone will whether they are just reading the thread or posting by being honest in answering!