The problems which existed with the Model 70's in 300 and 270 WSM were a direct result of the largeer diameter of the cartridges and Winchester's failure to anticipate or recognize the problems when they surfaced. While quality control was certainly an issue, the introduction of the WSM cartridges IN THAT RIFLE certainly exacerbated the qc problems. My point is that Winchester did a great job of marketing in that the rifles sold well in spite of the problems.
By the time the WSSM cartridges (which have not enjoyed the same wide acceptance)were introduced, Winchester had addressed the major problem (oval chambers) by increasing the receiver thread and barrel tenon diameter and the actions made for these cartridges incorporated these changes. Again, the WSM rifles were nice rifles in that they were nicely configured, well balanced rifles.
The thing is, the WSM cartridges offered nothing new. Ballistics were impressive from a compact cartridge but not quite so impressive when the primer rolled across the bench when the case was ejected. I increased freebore in anumber of rifles (not Winchesters) in order that the owners could use factory ammunition.
Nonetheless, the 300 and 270 WSM have proven to be quite popular and performance in the field has proven to be very good. This is not surprising since similar cartridges, from a ballistics standpoint, have been in use for 100 years. Regards, Bill.

Bill
Savage and ruger didn't have these same problems nor did Remington with the saum. .just saying winchester couldn't sell ice in El paso during that time in regards to quality

Savage didn't have the same problems because they anticipated and enlarged the thread and barrel diameter over the chamber. Ruger didn't have the same problems because they chambered a cartridge of smaller diameter. Remington's SAUM cartridges were smaller, their thread diameter was larger and there was no interupted thread.
I'm not saying Winchester QC didn't suck, it did. Their problems were indicative the lack of expertise in their engineering department. The partial thread in the Model 70 was problematic even in rifles chambered for belted magnums and they should have been able to anticipate the problems which would arise with the thinner chamber walls of the WSM's. In spite of this, they managed to market the concept and get it to sell.
By the way, the new Winchester Model 70 manufacturer is not a lot better in some regards. When I called Browning about an issue with bolt dimensions (the extractor groove milled too far forward so that primary extraction is lost) they denied ever having heard of such a problem. That was the response I got when I mentioned the oval chambers to New Haven as well (although they did go on to tell me they were going to change their thread diameter. A strange reponse to a problem which did not exist) so the corporate attitude seems to be the same. Hopefully, BACO will correct the bolt machining as well.
I'm sorry if I seem too argumentitive; I don't mean to be. Regards, Bill.

Bill,
I dont see us as arguing, merely exchanging points of view .. savage and Ruger made wsm rifles at the same time - ruger used the same 1"x16 barrels as always-- Identical to winchester barrel -- browning was, at the turn of the century, owned by the same license holder - I don't recall if FN owns browning now, as i have no interest..

rem made the SAUMs on the same action as the 308 ..

I think the majority of the winchester problems were winchester problems ... just saying

i think the wsm/suam/hem are amazing rounds.. but after having made the 500 jeffery and 505 gibbs feed in enfields, i don't really have a bunch of patience for corporate bad engineering

The shortmags are reasonably popular down here in NZ. The .270 wsm is probably the favorite, followed by the .300 wsm.

A Few Kimbers and A Bolts floating around in 7mm wsm, but 7mm wsm brass scarce as hens teeth and no distributor bringing in Winchester 7 mm WSM brass for the foreseeable future. Funny though factory ammo isn't too difficult to get hold of. But who wants to spend a fortune buying factory loaded ammo just so you can get the brass?

A few guys have built 7mm SAUM's and there are also a number (including myself) building 6.5mm SAUM's which I think is the best performing of all the SAUM's as it equals or outperforms the .264 Winchester mag in the same length barrel. There is a good constant supply of Norma 300 SAUM brass down here.

Or do what I did and make up SAUM brass from WSM brass which is also reasonably plentiful. I'm particularly interested to see how my SAUM cases made from Winchester 270 wsm cases perform against the Norma SAUM brass as I understand that Norma brass is softer than Winchester.

Jeff,
The major difference between the Ruger and the Winchester Model 70 is that the Ruger has a complete thread; the Model 70 thread is interrupted and this is what caused the chambers to distort when the barrel was tightened up in the receiver. The complete thread offers support to the thin chamber walls.
I think the SAUM cartridges are better than the WSMs and I think the Ruger RCM's are fine too but I don't consider any of them to be special. From the outset, I saw some promise in them as long range target rounds and the 7mm, especially, has proven to work quite well.
In the hunting fields, they drive the same bullets at the same velocities they have been driven to for the last sixty years and the results are predictable. Nothing amazing about it. Again, in spite of the fact that their own rifles had problems, Winchester was able to sell the cartridge; illustrating the power of marketing more than the capability of the cartridges.
Ultimately, the brass case is only a container for the powder charge and a gasket to seal the barrel. Shape, within reason, means nothing, once the cartridge is in the chamber, and the headstamp means even less. High velocities come from high pressures and the shape of the chamber (given the same capacity) doesn't change that. A 300 WSM outperforms a 30/06 because it's bigger. It doesn't outperform a 308 Norma because it's not bigger. No surprise. Regards, Bill.

Bill
This may be quibbling but case shape does matter eventually. A bottle necked case of nearly the same capacity will have a better velocity than a straight case. My 458 accrel is just about the same case as a 458 Lott however we get better vel due to the shoulder

hey -- this is interesting

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I never load over max unless I have modified the caliber to IMP. powder capacity and in 80 years have never blown a rifle up or damaged one for that matter.

ray on the 308 -- with loads so high that they come apart in a standard 308 ... i guess these weren't long throated - and *I* won't share his published load data...

thermonuclear Ray!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

The cases stick or come apart with that load in my Savage 99F! so it must be max!

Some interesting comments...

From my prospective...
Modern Short Magnum Cartridges -
The SAUM cartridges are a perfect match the traditional length modern short action rifles primarily due to their magazine length which seem to run 2.80"-2.950" internal length.

The WSM cartridges are a perfect match for the M70 WSM length action due to its 3.080"-3.105" internal magazine lengths. It is also a perfect match for the M98 Mauser Intermediate length actions WHEN used with a properly manufactured or modified magazine.

.300 SAUM vs .300 WSM -
0.550" base diameter vs 0.555" base diameter
2.015" case length vs 2.100" case length
2.825" overall length vs 2.860" overall length

I owned two matching M77 Ruger MKII SS SA synthetic rifles chambered in .300 SAUM; my son-in-law talked me out of one and my youngest son has adopted the other. I had zero issues with the SAUM only delivering hot loaded 30-06 AckImp velocities from their 22" barrels vs .30-338 WinMag velocities because both rifles were shorter than a comparable 1966 mfg M70 30-06 and lighter as well (all in synthetic stocks with 2-7 Leupold variable scopes). Accuracy was under 1.5" at 100yds and likely will be tightened greatly if I can get either rifle returned long enough to pillar bed it/them.

The only negative issue I identified with the .300 SAUM cartridge was that a 20rd box of .300 WSM ammo was half the price per box with the .300 WSM either being equal priced or at most $3-$5 more than a 20rd box of .300 WinMag ammo. If found, the .300 SAUM was about the same price as a box of .308"Norma Mag ammo. Plus, the .300 WSM would have given near .30-338 WinMag performance.

Belted Magnum Cartridges -
The belts are worthless unless the cartridge is designed with a lousy shoulder angle or no shoulder angle otherwise the required belt step down to case body consumes otherwise useable powder capacity.

Much like the dandy with empty pockets wearing both a belt and suspenders; one is for show only...

And yes I'm old enough to recollect all the pissing and moaning about the difficulty in getting the belted cartridges to 100% feed in converted rifles AND in original factory chambered rifles. Not much different complaints from the crop of modern short magnum cartridges.

Will the modern short magnum belt less cartridges replace the original 2.5" belted magnum cartridges? No. But really, do we as gun owners want any cartridges to fall by the wayside?

I also don't mind the Short or WSM Action folks having similar cartridge performance capabilities to the 3.4" magazine folks.

As I said, just my prospective...

Jeffe,
Just some more of your BS..You sound more like Donald Trump all the time...Why can't you just discuss as opposed to attacking..Ive tried to discuss with you and it just doesn' work so bug out, you accuse everyone, and claim quotes, but you have yet to quote to me the claims you make, and if you did you would misquote...

BTW that case came apart in a 99 Savage with a load that was loaded book max for a bolt action..It happens to everyone but you..

Who made you the reloading cop, get over it, your on eveyones ass constantly..so tell me you have never blow a primer, stuck a case or had any incident with your reloading, and I'll call you out on that

I seldom mention a specific load on AR. unless its mile, as I am a "velocity Squeezer" from time to time, as that's the only way one can correctly work up a true max load for a certain rifle...I am surprised you don't know that, but that's about what one expects from a flamer..