My point exactly. In my particular case the projectiles I typically use do not have crimp grooves (i.e Nosler accubonds). I also agree with Jeff on the case capacity reduction on any cartridge with a longer projectile.
Just with a falling block you do not have to contend with the length of the magazine or feeding issue that may arise with a sharp shouldered cartridge.
Would love to experiment with the 7 WSM and 160 gr high BC projectiles with a shallow seating depth to facilitate additional powder capacity and perhaps a 28" pipe.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
The issue is not the crimping grove. The issue is how deeply do you have to seat the bullet to function through the magazine.

It is all easier with the 30-06 Spr with its longer neck, and you can shoot 165 gr TSX BT bullets and you are good to go for any plains game. This is a perfect match - seating depth is 11.9 mm and the neck length is 9.8 mm - so their is virtually no robbing of powder space.

Pieter

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:

Would love to experiment with the 7 WSM and 160 gr high BC projectiles with a shallow seating depth to facilitate additional powder capacity
and perhaps a 28" pipe. [QUOTE]Originally posted by olarmy:

xtra powder space?..maybe a 7mmRUM if you don't already have an STW to 'long throat'..

--
I love those weird science stories on AR that say they can get the magical 300H&H to beat-go faster than the higher capacity .300win...

IN a fair play model/comparison,
where one had precisely the same brass thickness,identical barrel,same throat spec/bullet seat depth, and optimal powder selection,etc.etc
the higher cap.round must win out.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Jeff: haven't confirmed your numbers, but looks like you are correct, at least with respect to the various 300 mags.

thank you, sir -- while I pulled them off ammoguide, Mike does go the extra effort to "watermark" the carts that he/team have verified with SAAMI

I doubt that there is anything critically wrong with any of the sort magnums but I personally see no need for them..

I would opt of a 30-338, 300 Win mag, or 308 Norma over any short magnum simply because they have more velocity, flatter trajectory, and can handle heavier bullets if needed, and if you want you can load them down to a short magnum or even a 30-30...

Same applies to the .338 Win. you can load it down to whatever suits your needs.

They use the same action, so noting at all is gained form a practical point of view.

You cannot load the short mags up to the big brother like round..Just my two bits.

You cannot

Id like to see you squeeze a .300win into a WSM suitable short action700.

Ray
I can't count the number of times you have POSTED ultra hot loads to make a smaller case loaded as hot as a bigger one.

If you have the SAME volume consumed by PROPERLY seating a bullet the same distance then heavier means very little is discussing two like volume cases only when you put them outside of spec does that even come into play

Bit here the "double double down"

1 if I built a wsm 2.85 length cart on a 3.34 length action and throated the chamber, a 300wsm can have more EFFECTIVE case volume than a 300 win built on the same action. It's a fact, as the wsm could be set out neatly a half an inch longer.

2 if I built a wsm, on a short action, I have have nearly half an inch longer barrel and there more velocity for exactly the same overall length rifle

Is it picking out fly specs from pepper ? Durn right. About as productive as trying to say a 404 more than meets a 416 rigby

No critter knows 50fps and you know it

Say don't you prefer the 10,75x68 over the 404, and cetainly over the rigby? Shorter trimmer rifle for a very similar balistic result

I have A 300 wsm and A 243 wssm which are two of my favorite all time weapons. I have had similar weapons in similar calibers that I have not enjoyed as much. My tastes have evolved and my increased satisfaction has more to do with the weapons I now own rather than the cartridges I have left behind. The 300 weatherby or 300 wsm in the same weapon while different, that difference would be very difficult to appreciate. Half inch here or an inch there, one more round in the magazine or not. oh I have my prejudices to but short mag or traditional are not among them.

I picked up a 7WSM because it was cheap...nobody wants them. Very accurate and have been shooting out to 600yds with it and am very happy. Reloads are cheap...brass seems to last OK. But I'll probably take my 7x57 hunting...or maybe the 6.5x55.

How do the WSM and SAUM perform from an 18" barrel? I know how the 350 Magnum performs! Damn good!!

I arrived late at the WSM party. It took me to my second 300 WSM to polish/ my rationalization skills. The first time I kept comparing it to a .300 Win and it kept coming up short and I got rid of it. The proper method was to realize that it runs circles around a .308 Win. Instant happiness.

Jeffe,
I call that


To start with I suggested the .338 Win. or 300 Win mag over the short magnums in this vary thread so where the hell are you coming form?? As usual your once again in a state of confusion and got it backwards or just flaming!

I never load over max unless I have modified the caliber to IMP. powder capacity and in 80 years have never blown a rifle up or damaged one for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jeffe,
I call that


To start with I suggested the .338 Win. or 300 Win mag over the short magnums in this vary thread so where the hell are you coming form?? As usual your once again in a state of confusion and got it backwards or just flaming!

I never load over max unless I have modified the caliber to IMP. powder capacity and in 80 years have never blown a rifle up or damaged one for that matter.

Let's let that sink in. Look up your own posts on 10,75x68. Dis *i* ever say you blew up a gun ? Of course not. Have I seen you post loads FAR over book ? All the time. And sometimes without a decent warning.

Ray .. sir, seriously ? You have never hot loaded a thing ?

And of course, your emotive outburst and name calling ignores the rest of my post. That is called bluster.

Short magnums need short barrels. If one is using a long barrel trying to be compact it totally defeats the purpose.

My model 600 spits 160gr .358 ESP Copper Raptors at 3100fps from an 18"barrel with ZERO expansion of the belt!

It's accurate to as far as I like shoot.

Andy B

Looked for a 7WSM Montana for years, settled on a 270 WSM for 5 minutes, sold it for a 7RM and don't regret it.

Virgin hulls have an initial stretch of 0.012 in mine, but get resized to .001 headspace.

Why guys load without measuring headspace is beyond me.....

I would buy a 7mm WSM in a hurry if I could find 200 pieces of brass. It would go nicely with my four 270 WSM's. If you take the time to reload and shoot the WSM's they perform as designed. Good shooting.

The 300 whizzum, in an A-Bolt with the scissor lift in the magazine, is slick and makes for a handy lil package.
I've loaded 200 grain Accubonds, sure smacked an elk and it didn't seem to be bothered that it wasn't going as fast as a 300 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

So you aren't the only one that can set reloading dies incorrectly. Congrats.

===========================================================================

The belted bottlenecked cartridges are not as good a design case life wise because they blow the shoulder forward while headspacing on their belt. This initial stretch of the brass is no good.

The WSM's and similar cartridges headspace on their shoulders and support the case better and don't stretch as much.

The belted magnums won't be around long.

Yeah the first 110 years was just a fluke, the design doesn't have any staying power.

I think Ralph Nader had issues with 7mm Mags too.

I've shot a .270 WSM for 7 years. It is blazingly accurate and my primary culling cartridge/rifle. it's done a little over 3,000 rounds and I am about due for a re-barrel in another 200 - 300 rounds. I am shooting mostly 140gr Berger LVD HPs.

The belted vs non-belted case issue is not an issue if you neck size and leave the shoulder alone. It seems a lot of guys have trouble with non-belted cases for some reason. But once you figure out how to set up your dies properly and neck size, it's really not an issue. Get a set of Redding Competition Bushing/Seater dies and never look back.

I've had equally good case life with both belted and non-belted cases as long as you start with decent brass, neck size, and anneal every 4 or 5 reloads. I have been using Nosler brass and will not use anything else other than the occasional Lapua case.

Jeffe,
Name calling, where did I ever resort to name calling, when someone disagrees with you it seems you get mighty upset..Most of what you read is misread and those over loads you refer to are with rifle that have long magazines and long throats. Surely if I was as guilty as you profess, I would have blown a rifle up or at least jammed a rifle up which I did one occasion in the last 80 years..It was a misquoted load out of a Australian reloading book, and it was only a blown primer and stuck case.

As to my overloads, I know how to load and where max is for every rifle I own, and yes it may be over book, but with frivoulous law suits most books are underloading for various reasons..

Get the chip off your shoulder and lets discuss these disagreements, quote me if you must, but no need to go into panic mode over nothing.

I shot my 270 WSM Kimber Montana today.

It has stayed sighted in and put the first shot a half inch to the left at 200 yds and the second a half inch lower.

The load is the 150 Hornady SST over R 22 & WLRM's. Scope Leu. 4.5 X 14 Tactical.



That a rifle stay sighted in is now my most critical demand. I keep a record of it and fire a second confirming shot when wanted.

Groups are for target rifles. My target rifles must shoot small groups.

blah blah blah - more insults and 3 times admitting to willfully overloading -

i have nothing to add that anyone with an IQ over room temp can't see.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jeffe,
Name calling, where did I ever resort to name calling, when someone disagrees with you it seems you get mighty upset..Most of what you read is misread and those over loads you refer to are with rifle that have long magazines and long throats. Surely if I was as guilty as you profess, I would have blown a rifle up or at least jammed a rifle up which I did one occasion in the last 80 years..It was a misquoted load out of a Australian reloading book, and it was only a blown primer and stuck case.

As to my overloads, I know how to load and where max is for every rifle I own, and yes it may be over book, but with frivoulous law suits most books are underloading for various reasons..

Get the chip off your shoulder and lets discuss these disagreements, quote me if you must, but no need to go into panic mode over nothing.

I just returned from Namibia where I took my 300 WSM and 325 WSM. On this hunt I shot 3 gemsbok, a Hartmann's Mountain Zebra and a Damara Dik Dik with the 325 WSM. The three gemsbok literally dropped in their tracks. The Zebra ran 30 yards and slid into an Acacia Tree. The Dik Dik jumped 10 feet into the air when shot with a Barnes banded solid and was dead on his feet and didn't know it. The Damara Springbok was shot with the 300 WSM and ran 15 yards. I have used these two calibers for years and I would never ever hesitate to use either caliber in Africa, North America or Mexico, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. Both are going again with me to Mexico in January for Coues Deer.

From left to right: .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .270 WSM, 7 mm WSM, .300 WSM, .325 WSM.
Which ones, please, are going to make the belted cartridges obsolete?

Jeffe,
What you call over loading is how I load my long throated, long magazine rifles which seems to me a lack of knowledge on your part or just flaming! when you get confused.

Also your referring to book loads on the 7x57 and 8x57 which are way under the capabilities of a proper firearm and they are under loaded because to the many single shots and 95 and 96 Mausers out there and the Reloading book editor are scared of frivoulous law suits...wake up and converse as opposed to flaming about something you don't seem to understand..I seldom even quote loads so your again out to lunch.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
if too tight take a half turn on the die until the shoulder meets the chamber, maybe back off another quarter of a turn..

PM sent.

The 308 Win can be considered a short-cased cartridge (51mm) when compared with standard length cartridges of around 63mm's, such as the 30-06. And it can reach so-called "magnum" velocites with lighter bullets like 130 gr @ 3000 fps.

This is why the 308 Win is such a winner - we do not need all those voluminous cases, extra powder and extra recoil.

Pieter.

I soured on short mags because of the Rick Jamison lawsuit. He apparently patented the short mag concept, in spite of the fact they had been experimented with for years, and then sued Winchester, and others, demanding money and a royalty on each rifle sold. The thought of one man holding the industry I love hostage irked the hell out of me.
I'm not sure how the lawsuit eventually played out, but I want no part of short mags.

My only magnum is the original short mag, the 350 Rem Mag.

I thought the 458/338/264 were the original short mags.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
I thought the 458/338/264 were the original short mags.

Ok, you are correct. I meant the original short mag that fits in a 308 sized action.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
I shot my 270 WSM Kimber Montana today.

It has stayed sighted in and put the first shot a half inch to the left at 200 yds and the second a half inch lower.

The load is the 150 Hornady SST over R 22 & WLRM's. Scope Leu. 4.5 X 14 Tactical.



That a rifle stay sighted in is now my most critical demand. I keep a record of it and fire a second confirming shot when wanted.

Groups are for target rifles. My target rifles must shoot small groups.

I shot my Winchester Model 70 in 338 Mag the other day, it was sighted in and shot as well as always. I have brass which has been loaded a dozen times with no apparent thinning at the web. What am I doing wrong?
Had a guy come into the shop once with some 7mm Mag brass which was separating at the head. I told him his die was set too short. He told me he had been setting dies the same way for thirty-five years. I told him, if I had been screwing up for thirty-five years, I wouldn't brag about it. I lost that customer but I'm not sure it was a big loss! Regards, Bill.

About short magnums, they have been surprisingly popular in North America. This in spite of numerous problems with the early Model 70 offering. Just like the original 300 Winchester Mag., the success of the WSM's is an example of the power of advertising and the gullibility of the American consumer.
One thing which did make a difference was that the rifles offered in 300 WSM were, except for the chambering, nicer rifles. They were built lighter and better balanced. The cartridge had no bearing on this what so ever. Regards, Bill.

Wow. You must br really smart.

Yeah. Both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because I know things; a curse because so many don't want to hear it. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

So you aren't the only one that can set reloading dies incorrectly. Congrats.

===========================================================================

The belted bottlenecked cartridges are not as good a design case life wise because they blow the shoulder forward while headspacing on their belt. This initial stretch of the brass is no good.

The WSM's and similar cartridges headspace on their shoulders and support the case better and don't stretch as much.

What Chuck is trying to say is; Take a lit candle and hold it close enough to your case neck to cause black soot to appear. Then lightly spray with lube and set the sizer die until the soot just disappears. You won't have to worry about headspace. Some use magic marker, I prefer candle soot.

Every time a new round is fired, regardless of design, it will stretch. Every chamber and sizing die will vary.
Marketing will always save us from some of the evil old ways and give us the latest and greatest. Jobs and economies rely on these strategies.
Telling someone, with knowledge, that a belted case is inferior, because of belt headspacing, is in for an argument. I think Chuck has resolved to not argue anymore and has gone to dismissal.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
This in spite of numerous problems with the early Model 70 offering. Regards, Bill.

the carts had nothing to do with the problems of the 1999-2003 winchesters ...

the failing business and horrible QA did --