In SA these short cased magnums did not catch on, save for a few 300 WSM's here and there. I am not sure how they are doing in the US - 243 WSM, 270 WSM, 7mm WSM, 300 WSM and 325 WSM. Would like to hear some opinions as to their following and or survival. It has been close on 15 years now after they have been introduced.

I heard that the .284 Win is more popular than any of the above WSM's for target shooting - can that be confirmed?

Pieter

For what it's worth, the 7mm SAUM seems to be alive and well in the Long Distance Community, although most reports would say that the SAUM's are quite dead.

I have a Rem. M7 AWR in 7mm SAUM and it performs beautifully for my needs. 140gr. bullets at 3050 fps is plenty good for most North American game. I've also found the accuracy to be quite good, with my rifle fully capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

The Shorties are good cartridges but they really never did anything new. They just allowed a slightly lighter rifle via a shorter action and perhaps (*arguable) a little better accuracy.

that and nobody bothered to build any rifles.
I had a 7 win short mag and the rifle [win] had some issues.
I would love to have a ruger hawkeye in 7 saum.

You know that Porsche 911 purists said the intro of the compact Boxster in 1996 was a dud idea...How wrong they were!!!
..... so you don't know until you 'take a chance' on something [WSMs? or a Boxster design] to see how they work out in the real world.

Of course the critics of the WSMs/SAUMs are all experts after the fact,... while the Boxster naysayers still have immense egg on their face.

15+ years an going strong here ..
but we seem to prefer the 280 over the 7x64 .. no accounting for preferences

The .300 WSM and .270 WSM are doing well here, because they seem to have filled a niche. The .300 WSM gave the .308 Win/short action guys a performance boost and knocked the rough edges off for those who secretly (and not so secretly) thought their 300 Wins kicked too much. The .270 WSM rivals the .270 Weatherby in a mainstream, no free-bore cartridge that also happens to fit in a short action. The rest never really even got off the ground. There's always a few enthusiasts that will buy everything that's new, obscure, uncommon and hard to feed. To them these seemingly disadvantages are points in favor since the bigger the pain in the butt the more they want it. Enthusiasts don't keep cartridges in production by themselves, since most of them don't shoot factory ammo.

I shoot four .270 WSM's mainly because when I got my first one and all my grandson's shot it, they all wanted one to shoot at Deer in the long bean fields. A 130 grain bullet at 3450 fps and a 160 grain bullet at 2950 fps gives the round varied use up to Elk and Moose. I then got enough brass and bullets to last a lifetime through my great grandson. I then got a .243 WSSM and 25 WSSM because they were very cheap and shot them until they were as good as anything I shoot for accuracy. They are excellent to start the little boys out on for Deer-groundhogs etc. I also managed to find enough brass to last all of mine as long as they will hunt. Knock them all you want but in my opinion they have a place for a happy reloader willing to play with them. The way we shoot them we will never wear out a barrel so why not. Good shooting.

I don't see many of the new SM calibers around in the field, and I'm out there amongst them..I see the 300 Win. Mag. the 338 Win and the 7 Mag, holding their own for sure..I don't think the new crop will stand the test of time..I see no reason for such calibers, they have little to offer IMO..Guess we will see but school is still out on them. Check back in 2030 AD...

I jumped on the short mags as I don't like the stretching at the web that the belted mags have.

My WSM Kimbers weigh less than a M70 Featherweight and are good accurate rifles.

While I was never a 270 aficionado I did get a 270 WSM first as I thought the 7mm WSM would not make it. While I might be right I have one of those now also!

My latest rifle fad is the Berger VLD bullets for hunting.

Recently the 7mm WSM put two 168 VLD's into 1" at 200 yds.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
I jumped on the short mags as I don't like the stretching at the web that the belted mags have.

That's your fault not the fault of the belted cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
I jumped on the short mags as I don't like the stretching at the web that the belted mags have.

That's your fault not the fault of the belted cartridge.

Stretching at the expansion web of a belted rifle cartridge with a shoulder is more severe that that of a similar rimless cartridge. It's because there is a clearance in front of it's shoulder and it blows forward to the rifles chamber.

In a rimless cartridge with a shoulder the clearance is less and it's supported by the rifles chamber better.

Thus a particular FL die might push a shoulder back too much for any specific chamber.

I set each FL die to size a cartridge just enough. If one just runs the FL die down to the shell holder it will over size a belted round.

I think you will find considerable "slop" in any store bought ammo you would buy.
And too, you will find the web stretch in any cartridge that is repeatedly resized in a improperly tuned die.

A friend and I did it slightly different. We wildcatted the case to 6.5 WSM and .338 WSM, knowing others had proceeded us. Both cartridges (similar but built prior to the .270 and .325 WSMs) have served us admirably in Colorado and in Namibia. Of course, just having something different is reason enough.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I think you will find considerable "slop" in any store bought ammo you would buy.
And too, you will find the web stretch in any cartridge that is repeatedly resized in a improperly tuned die.

Amen.

I'm continually amazed at how otherwise logical people can come to believe that there is somehow a difference in how a case behaves at the web depending on whether its rim is smaller than the case (rebated), the same size as the case (rimless), or larger than the case (rimmed and belted). A belted case is just a rimmed case with a very thick (.220") and very narrow (appx. .02" wide) rim.

ANY type of case will thin at the pressure ring and have an incipient head separation if the chamber has excessive headspace.

And while it may be true that manufacturers famously oversize their chambers simply because the belt will somewhat control headspace, anyway, that is the fault of the manufacturers failing to keep their chambers within SAAMI spec, not the fault of the case design.

Why would manufacturers do this?

1. Most shooters don't reload, so the condition of the fired case is of no consequence.

2. Manufacturers like chambers to be on the large side in order to assure that slightly out-of-spec (oversized) ammunition still chambers without difficulty.

3. Chambering reamers wear as they are used. If a manufacturer starts with an oversized chambering reamer then they can get more chambers out of it before it is worn smaller than spec.

Again, 'taint the case design, but the relationship of the case to the chamber which creates problems.

The short magnums will have a small and loyal following for quite some time. I have several friends who love the .300SM and like it for long range hunting.

I find no use for any of them, but I'm a traditionalist and maybe that makes me obsolete. All cartridges were wildcats / newbies at one time or another.

I don't think the SM's have a following that will make them traditional. Plus, factory ammo is expensive.

I was flying out of Anchorage on Monday when I saw a man checking two sets of moose antlers to CA (his and his hunting buddy's). I asked him what he shot his moose with and he said: "300 Short Mag, but never again. The first shot was at 45 yards, the last one at 15 feet."

I fully understand there are variables not addressed, such as bullet placement, projectile used, etc. But the conversation left me wondering about that cartridge. Of course, he was hunting an animal that probably weighed somewhere north of 1200#, too...

quote:

ANY type of case will thin at the pressure ring and have an incipient head separation if the chamber has excessive headspace.

Yep, and the Dalai Lamma will confirm it.

Pieter

Stretching at the expansion web of a belted rifle cartridge with a shoulder is more severe that that of a similar rimless cartridge. It's because there is a clearance in front of it's shoulder and it blows forward to the rifles chamber.

In a rimless cartridge with a shoulder the clearance is less and it's supported by the rifles chamber better.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I was flying out of Anchorage on Monday when I saw a man checking two sets of moose antlers to CA (his and his hunting buddy's). I asked him what he shot his moose with and he said: "300 Short Mag, but never again. The first shot was at 45 yards, the last one at 15 feet."

I fully understand there are variables not addressed, such as bullet placement, projectile used, etc. But the conversation left me wondering about that cartridge. Of course, he was hunting an animal that probably weighed somewhere north of 1200#, too...

I'm glad you quantified in your last paragraph. Why would the 300 WSM perform any differently than a 300 Win Mag or a 30-06 at that distance?
The guy's "never again" knee-jerk statement is just stupid!

Zeke

I've shot eland with the 300 WSM and it was DRT. I've also shot a butt load of other plains game in Africa, including, but not limited to gemsbok, zebra, blue and black wildebeest, kudu, waterbuck, red hartebeest,scimitar horned oryx,tessebe, red lechwe,barbary sheep,fallow deer, mountain and common reedbuck,springbok,bushbuck, nyala, warthog, etc, etc, etc, as well as Mexican desert mulies and coues deer and they all died either on the spot or within a few yards. No problem with animals north of 1200 pounds if the shot is right with the 300 WSM. I have also shot many critters with the 325 WSM in both Africa and the Western US. and it and the 300 WSM will both be going to Africa with me later this summer. By the way, I shoot trophy bondeds in my 300 WSM and love them.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

A belted case is just a rimmed case with a very thick (.220") and very narrow (appx. .02" wide) rim.

so a belted case is Essentially a rimless case with a rim then placed further forward....?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:


...And while it may be true that manufacturers famously oversize their chambers simply because the belt will somewhat control headspace,....

Why would manufacturers do this?

1. Most shooters don't reload, so the condition of the fired case is of no consequence.

2. Manufacturers like chambers to be on the large side in order to assure that slightly out-of-spec (oversized) ammunition still chambers without difficulty.
....

Points 1 & 2 ,... I could understand H&H doing it for those practical reasons when they
designed & released their proprietary DBG cartridge .375H&H

CHS was not an issue like today, since who reloaded fired cases for their Holland & Holland SxS and Mauser bolt rifles in those days?

..and with the range and quality of belted magnum ammunition today, one still does not have to reload if they don't want to.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Stretching at the expansion web of a belted rifle cartridge with a shoulder is more severe that that of a similar rimless cartridge. It's because there is a clearance in front of it's shoulder and it blows forward to the rifles chamber.

In a rimless cartridge with a shoulder the clearance is less and it's supported by the rifles chamber better.

Why I argue with idiots is beyond me. BUT I personally have sectioned MANY belted cases to try and find this problem. I have NEVER had the problem, but then again I have a frickin clue when it comes to setting up dies.

Now, unbelted cases can have the same bloody problem if you fail to size them correctly as well. If you do happen to have a belted magnum chamber you can put a cat in ahead of the case then by all means create a false shoulder and carry on. Until then talk about something you have a clue about and quit pulling someone else's pictures off the internet!

If you don't reload, then it means even less!

savage99 has been spouting that same argument on numerous shooting/hunting forums for over 10 years.

Everyone and their brother have told him he is full of prunes...to no avail.

I get from 10-12 reloads in my .300 Win mag cases before I discard them. I only partial size, jumping the belt and taking headspace on the case shoulder (like I do for my beltless cases).

As a matter of fact, I have 2 .300 Win rifles (a Blaser R93 and a Rem Sendero), so I partial-adjust my FL die to the widest chamber, i.e. the R93, so the handloads will chamber in both rifles.

Even so, if or when a case fails it's from a split neck or weakened neck tension.

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:

I have a Rem. M7 AWR in 7mm SAUM and it performs beautifully for my needs. 140gr. bullets at 3050 fps is plenty good for most North American game. I've also found the accuracy to be quite good, with my rifle fully capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

My objection to short fat cartridges is that in my experience they are difficult to make feed well through an ordinary double stack Mauser type magazine. There is no question that given two cartridges of the same caliber and case capacity, the one with larger diameter and sharper shoulder is capable of more accuracy. The PPC series of cartridges proved that long ago.

However, bench rest accuracy is not the most important feature of a hunting rifle. Reliability trumps that factor every time, and the larger diameter sharp shoulders create problems with reliable feeding that I, for on, have found it difficult to master.

Varying bullet seating depths sometimes pays off, but bullet depth can be critical to accuracy, so changing it to promote reliability may have negated the best feature of the case design.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Stretching at the expansion web of a belted rifle cartridge with a shoulder is more severe that that of a similar rimless cartridge. It's because there is a clearance in front of it's shoulder and it blows forward to the rifles chamber.

In a rimless cartridge with a shoulder the clearance is less and it's supported by the rifles chamber better.

.

The stretching in front of the web isn't from the shoulder blowing forward, it's from the case head blowing back against the bolt-face. Head spacing tight on the shoulder reduces stretching because it presses the case head tight against the bolt-face leaving it with nowhere to go.

If the case stretching was from moving the shoulder forward, the thinning would be at the other end. Then there's all the .458s with no shoulder at all. Why aren't they separating?

quote:

so a belted case is Essentially a rimless case with a rim then placed further forward....?

More like a rimmed case with the rim modified so it doesn't get mis-stacked in the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
The .300 WSM and .270 WSM are doing well here, because they seem to have filled a niche. The .300 WSM gave the .308 Win/short action guys a performance boost and knocked the rough edges off for those who secretly (and not so secretly) thought their 300 Wins kicked too much. The .270 WSM rivals the .270 Weatherby in a mainstream, no free-bore cartridge that also happens to fit in a short action. The rest never really even got off the ground. There's always a few enthusiasts that will buy everything that's new, obscure, uncommon and hard to feed. To them these seemingly disadvantages are points in favor since the bigger the pain in the butt the more they want it. Enthusiasts don't keep cartridges in production by themselves, since most of them don't shoot factory ammo.

I agree.............. those are the two I see quite frequently, the others not so much.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
The short magnums will have a small and loyal following for quite some time. I have several friends who love the .300SM and like it for long range hunting.

I find no use for any of them, but I'm a traditionalist and maybe that makes me obsolete. All cartridges were wildcats / newbies at one time or another.

I don't think the SM's have a following that will make them traditional. Plus, factory ammo is expensive.

Best post of this thread so far. It addresses the OP question and does so quite well.

My only comment is in addition to ammo being expensive, brass is expensive and difficult to find. Since Remington and Winchester never make short magnum brass, Nosler has decided to fill the void and gouge everyone with brass that costs $2 a piece. If I needed a magnum in todays environment, I'd look for standard length magnum and not worry about the 1/2" shorter receiver.

If you own a short mag and are stocked up on brass, you are good to go.

If magnum cases are stretching, it because they are being reloaded to do so..I suggest you blacken the neck and shoulder and then you can see just how much to run them up into the die, go slow and set the die at the shoulder, then test in rifle for chambering, if too tight take a half turn on the die until the shoulder meets the chamber, maybe back off another quarter of a turn..That loaded round will function and will not stretch, it has no place to stretch except at the neck with repeated loadings..I reload belted cases as many times as I load my 06 cases..sometimes as many as 14 or more in some instances, mostly depending on caliber and how hot I load them..

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I was flying out of Anchorage on Monday when I saw a man checking two sets of moose antlers to CA (his and his hunting buddy's). I asked him what he shot his moose with and he said: "300 Short Mag, but never again. The first shot was at 45 yards, the last one at 15 feet."

poor shot placement and/or bullet choice aren't the fault of the cartridge -- meese have been killed with 30/30 - and while some people complain of slightly less than statement vels (not doing the quagmire of wsm vs win) - either exceed the 30/30 or 308 or 3006

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
And too, you will find the web stretch in any cartridge that is repeatedly resized in a improperly tuned die.

i sort of agree - though the rest of this thread infers that only an ignorant person would have issues with this -- either from the load side (too hot) or mechanical side (you don't know what you are doing)

look, there's at LEAST .003 clearance of the CHAMBER and then at least .002 from the case being undersized.. that's .005 total/2 per side.. but about the same in mass produced rifles.. not so much in custom chambers IF the dies are well matched .. and if the reamer is well made, and especially if the chamber is cut well ... mass produced rifles tend to be more sloppy

since chs (case head separation) is not limited to belted cases, there is an underlying "thang" .. which is where the case wall thickens and the infection point from flexible upper wall to more solid web is where CHS takes place.. rimless, rebated, semi rimless, rimmed, or belted -- it happens at an inflection point --

and a sorry combination of sloppy chamber, small brass, and "standard" dies, which are nearly certainly NOT the same size of the chamber, then you get CHS - in 45 acp, 308, belted, or flanged.. it happens


as for all the "reasons" of what boil down to
bullet placement
gunsmithing
idiomatic / nonstandard rifles
reloading techniques

well, those all apply to a 308 the same as a wsm ...

Have been thinking about a WSM project for some time but I believe it will be Ruger #1.
The sharp shoulder does not feed the best in a bolt and the short length creates powder capacity issues with longer bullets.
With a custom pipe, just make the throat a little longer and seat your bullets out further than traditional and there should no feeding issues (falling block).
Trying to decide either a 270 or 7MM WSM. A year or two off…

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
] the short length creates powder capacity issues with longer bullets.
EZ

let's drag this out in the daylight and stake it...

if a bullet has a crimping groove, and you set it on the crimping groove, it consumes EXACTLY the same volume of case no matter what length of the case..

in the case of the Accrel ..big bore, big game, heavy bullets are generally about .800 from middle of groove to nose of the bullet-- therefore it doesn't matter if its a 45/70, 45/120, 450 marlin, 458 lott, 458 win, or 458 accrel -- the EXACT same amount of case is consumed by the volume of the bullet inside the case.


Can you "adjust" that with a longer throat? Sure can, and same tricks work in most "Cases" ..

but if the same bullet is used with the same grove, it doesn't matter if its a 30/30 or 30/378, the same amount of case volume is consumed..

so, it doesn't matter if you are using a 180gr NP in a 300 win or 300WSM, the same reduction occurs are nominal length

The issue is not the crimping grove. The issue is how deeply do you have to seat the bullet to function through the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Pieter die 4de:
In SA these short cased magnums did not catch on, save for a few 300 WSM's here and there. I am not sure how they are doing in the US - 243 WSM, 270 WSM, 7mm WSM, 300 WSM and 325 WSM. Would like to hear some opinions as to their following and or survival. It has been close on 15 years now after they have been introduced.

I heard that the .284 Win is more popular than any of the above WSM's for target shooting - can that be confirmed?

Pieter

I have a Rem 700 in 300SAUM and from factory is a tack driver so I wont be getting rid of thay any time soon. However it is not a 300WM and for some odd reason I just prefer it.

I have a wildcat based on the WSM case. The 35Sambar. It is not a 358Norma but not too far behind it. The 35Sambar is one calibre I will be hanging onto. Years before the WSM/SAUM came out I wrote to Remington asking if they would make a 35 cal based on the 35rem Mag using the same case head size but no belt, just running the case at the head size. Figured this would give the case a fair boost in performance. So the 35Sambar is just a biut beeter of an idea.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
The issue is not the crimping grove. The issue is how deeply do you have to seat the bullet to function through the magazine.

well, an interesting point -- the spec length is what i am driving at

the 300 wsm has a case length of 2.1" with a max oal of 2.86 (saami) .76 from case to tip

the 300 win is 2.620 vs 3.34 .72" from case to tip

308 win 2.015 vs 2.81 - .795 from tip
even the 300 weathrby, 3.56 oal vs 2.825 is "just" .735 from tip to case mouth..


so, the myth that the 300 wsm looses more case than the 300 win or even 300 weatherby, when set to SAAMI if busted.. just a tiny bit of math, right?

the exact same bullet, set to saami length, is LESS inside the case than a 300 win or 300 weatherby ...

Jeff: haven't confirmed your numbers, but looks like you are correct, at least with respect to the various 300 mags.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

So you aren't the only one that can set reloading dies incorrectly. Congrats.