These groups were shot years apart.

Can't open the object in your post Saeed.

My standard is to shoot 10 shots inside of 1 inch circle. I wait 5 minutes between shots. I don't want any fliers especially when shooting long distances. A very accurate rifle helps make of for the shooters errors.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Can't open the object in your post Saeed.

It is a target.

But I am sorry I am out of the country and do not have the software to correct it.

Will do next month when I am back.

I might want to shoot something in the eye, ever think of that! especially a Dangerous game animal like a charging buffalo, or a croc sunning on a log, I can think of a thousand reasons for a one inch gun, not to mention shooting the head off a turkey or grouse! All mine are one inch guns, if they weren't they went down the gunshow road...Even my mod. 94s will shoot one inch 3 shot groups with irons most of the time, and it takes a while to put a collection of guns that shoot that good off the bench together but it can sure be done over a long time span. A good rock or tree is darn near as good as a bench. If you have a fine 5 inch gun and a Lion is coming to eat ya, your in deep do do my friend...Just another approach to the subject..

quote:

If you have a fine 5 inch gun and a Lion is coming to eat ya, your in deep do do my friend...Just another approach to the subject..

I hate to disagree with Mr. Atkinson who is both an elder and a better. But on this I do. A 5 inch gun at 100 yards is a 1" gun at 20 yards, as long as the extra wetness in your pants is not too distracting. That is the defining variable in the matter I suggest.

And just exactly how many of us will ever be shooting a lion?

I understand the point trying to be made, and even though making sure a person can hit where they are aiming with their rifle, I have my doubts that any client is really ever in a position where it will be up to that person to actually stop a lion.

I have always thought that stopping charging animals was why hunters booked the services of a PH!

A charging Lion or whatever is not up to the PH, to kill, its up to the hunter, hopefully the PH will join in the fun however, and that's the norm..

I would not like any hunter who started an affair with a dangerous animal and decided to let the PH finish his mess...that would be despicable.

As to the 5 inch gun at 100 yards being a 1 inch gun at 20 yards?, how did you arrive at that. perhaps technically but not necessialry in the real world. At 20 yards I want a 1/4" gun and at 5 yards a 1/32 as Lions get scarier the closer they get!

If I was attacked by a charging lion, I'd have one big advantage. I'd be running on dry ground and he'd be running on SLIPPERY POOP!
Captdavid

in a word -- confidence -- if the shooter knows the rifle will shoot where he aims it, and he AIMS it, he has higher confidence of a well placed shot...

With companies guaranteeing MOA it also is a measure of quality.

I have a SS ruger id like to sell one of you guys that is okay with 2-3 inch groups at 100. Shes real pretty to look at though.

quote:

A charging Lion or whatever is not up to the PH, to kill, its up to the hunter, hopefully the PH will join in the fun however, and that's the norm..

Care to tell that to Mark Sullivan????????

For me its about confidence, when I shoulder a rifle, I want to know its going to hit where I aim. More accurate the rifle, more I believe that will happen.

Well Crazyhorse, you do make a good argument!!

I sort of see both sides, but I am with Crazyhorseconsulting's first post. My reason is this, I have a rifle that is capable of putting 5 shots in less than .5 inches at 100 yds...all said and good...but that is worthless for someone who can't shoot. Sort of like owning a Funny Car Dragster that is capable of 300 MPH in less than 3 seconds, but having no ability to drive something like that it only shows that that, yes, you have the equipment, but if you can't use it properly, it is simply for bragging rights and otherwise worthless. How many shooters who have sub half MOA rifles can get anywhere near that size group WITHOUT the use of a bench, sandbags, even shooting sticks, you know off hand, standing on your own hind legs? My best ever offhand big bore target was 3 shots from a .458 WM at 50yds, with all shots touching. Never shot the gun off the bench for grouping, loaded my favorite load, went to the range and proceeded to see how well I could shoot off hand with it. I don't know if I could go out today and do that again, maybe, but probably not, but as someone else put it, that is perfect "minute of critter" for me.

Alan,
I tend to disagree in that an accurate gun is an accurate gun and a inaccurate gun is inaccurate! I shoot accurate rifles much better Off hand or over a rock or tree trunk, with the same difference as I would off a bench..An accurate gun is much easier to make a difficult shot with..I just can't see any other approach to this subject...I would not waste my time with an inaccurate pistol or rifle..but to each his own on the subject.

Moa…necessary? No. Back in the '60s at age 14, my “big game” rifle was a Marlin 336 in .35 Rem with a Weaver 4x. Probably not a true moa rifle. But...that rifle could…and did…kill many’a PA groundhog at 100 yards and further with factory Rem 200gr Cor-Lokts. Vividly...I can remember lying prone in those farm fields with tremendous confidence in that rifle.
With all respect to everyone’s opinion here…personally…I see only advantages and no downside to a rifle delivering moa. Again, good thread Ch.

Not to get too nit-picky but a groundhog is basically a 4 moa critter...that is, more than 4"-6" wide and 2-3 times that tall...so a 3 MOA rifle would suffice at 100 yds...I've shot a lot of those also, but missed enough to want a much more accurate rifle than the W94 I used in the early days...no flame or diss intended.

EVERYBODY has a level of accuracy and whatever works for them is OK, but some of us know that "highly accurate", sub MOA rifles are the only "interesting" rifles around...no matter the cal or the beasty we shoot.

It is relatively easy to tune a rifle and ammo to achieve <MOA accuracy and those that choose to go the extra mile also know that a <MOA rifle is only sub MOA IF you continue to keep the tune-up working....no different than your vehicle, boat motor, or ATV...and if you choose NOT to tune or just accept the level of accuracy/performance the rifle/vehicle gives then that's falls into another category...having your vehicle die at inopportune times can be most inconvenient.

I HATE to wound an animal because of something I did/didn't do that could have prevented the suffering...AND RESULTANT, NASTY TASTING TAINTED MEAT, because I was too lazy or uncaring to use the most accurate rifle/ammo available to make a clean, quick kill. And what's worse is to find wounded, long suffering animals slowly dying from wounds suffered at the hands of uncaring hunters...I have my own ideas about how to handle hunters of that ilk.

I'm very picky about who I hunted with and BEFORE ever hunting something larger than sageratz, I made sure their rifles AND their hunting skills were at least close or better than mine.

LUCK

Again everyone's mileage and expectations vary when it comes to shooting and hunting, and in my case I see a difference between the two and on more than one level.

There is no real "One Size Fits All".

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A charging Lion or whatever is not up to the PH, to kill, its up to the hunter, hopefully the PH will join in the fun however, and that's the norm..

I would not like any hunter who started an affair with a dangerous animal and decided to let the PH finish his mess...that would be despicable.

As to the 5 inch gun at 100 yards being a 1 inch gun at 20 yards?, how did you arrive at that. perhaps technically but not necessialry in the real world. At 20 yards I want a 1/4" gun and at 5 yards a 1/32 as Lions get scarier the closer they get!

Ray,
With the title of the post being "MOA Accuracy", I was assuming that respondents believed in the premise of Minute of angle, so I just did the math backward. Yes in the real world...but in the real world, it's always about the shooter much more than what is being shot. And I stand by the defining variable of shooting a charging lion in the right spot at the right time, is the propensity to wet one's britches or not; far above what that rifle shoots in groups at 100 yards. Not that will ever have the chance but sure would choose my old Remington 760 with big old white bead and simple Ghost ring Peep with a 220 Grain Soft or Solid. Points like an extension of my finger and reloads inline faster than I would hopefully need.
Best regards,

Who on here believes that they would ever have the need to stop a charging anything if they were hunting with Mark Sullivan?

I wonder if Saeed will weigh in on that?

He has weighed in. I watched his video's. Here it is: If we all shot like Saeed, nobody would ever have to stop anything charging... no mater who they were hunting with. Mr. Sullivan could say "They all choose to die whilst I watched through my binoculars."

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
A MOA gun will kill deer size game out to 500 yds easily, which is much farther than most people will ever shoot. 1/2 MOA rifles are much more scarce than the internet will lead you to believe, IMO.

Actually I believe 1/2 inch shooters are the scarce commodity!

I really like working up a tackdriver of a load and consider a rifle that won't do better than 3 shots in one inch barely a keeper. A good percentage of rifles in good condition can be made to shoot in the .6 to .7 for three shots. Speaking generally of rifles .284 and down. The 308 is the exception as I have owned several very accurate 308 rifles. Do I have to have this kind of accuracy hunting big game, no but it is nice shooting varmints and coyotes. It is also nice when night hunting feral hogs where I want to make a neck shot/under the ear shot.

Bottom line is Im an "accuracy nut", I have no use for inaccurate rifles, and see no reason to apoligise. I get all fuzzy and warm when I shoot a 1/2 inch group..I get pissed when I shoot a 1.5" or 2" group..Its got to be my DNA, my distant relitives invented the spear, then the stick that made a better spear, then the more accurate bow and eventually the 25-35.

that said, I've killed as much game as anyone with my iron sighted rifles to ever condem anyone for shooting a 3 or 4 inch rifle..

Its an option we all have. Im even OCD about accuracy, and just between us most of my iron sighted rifles will shoot and inch at 100 yards, or down the road they went, keeps me ever so happy!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
.....

For me, perfection is a one shot kill, knowing that if that does not happen, my second shot is going to finish what I started by firing the first shot.

It is interesting to read others views or beliefs.

My thought is that if (3, or 5, or 25) shots in a row will go into (1/2, or 1, or 3) inches, then I know that second shot is going to be where (if) I need it.

Or (to be more truthful about MY shots) if the rifle will do 1" and I can hold 4" aim, then I can hit the 10" target out to 200 yards. If the rifle only does 3" then that same 10" target I shouldn't try beyond 150 yds.

For me it is quite simple: the more accurate the rifle, the more error you have in estimating wind. As Dogleg says, you only get good at doping the wind by constant practice. Not only do accurate rifles have more tolerance for wind errors, but they speed up the learning curve - a 2 MOA rifle might be able to put its shots in a ten inch circle, but if you hit left 5" is that due to the accuracy of the rifle or a bad wind call? With a 1/2 MOA rifle, you know your wind call was at least off by 3/4 MOA. Trust me, it is a lesson I learned the hard way; I used to take some of my less than "prime" rifles out to 700 or 800 yards, figuring burning up the barrels was no big deal. It was a big waste of time.

For most hunting, of course, it doesn't matter. It has been a long time since I shot a whitetail beyond 100 yards, and if my .308 groups 1.5 or even 2 inches, I am fine with that. But if I was watching a quarter section of clear cut, I would not dream of using that rifle.

quote:

Or (to be more truthful about MY shots) if the rifle will do 1" and I can hold 4" aim, then I can hit the 10" target out to 200 yards. If the rifle only does 3" then that same 10" target I shouldn't try beyond 150 yds.

To me it is equating the differences between shooting from a bench at a stationary target at a measured range, and shooting at hair, from various articles I have read concerning studies that have been done, there is a world of difference in the breathing/heart rate and blood pressure of a person setting at a bench shooting at paper, and that same person looking at a game animal.

Like so many discussions concerning hunting situations, each of us have to do what we as individuals believe will make us more successful as a hunter.

Another case of "No One Size Fits All.

Your right there is a world of difference, and after a run to a saddle to get there in time to take a shot at a departing deer, elk or whatever with a surging heartbeat, but that still doesn't omit the need for accuracy.. A good shooting rifle is never a mistake, that accuracy helps you make a shot no matter the circumstances..a 4" rifle at 100 yards is a 8 inch rifle at 200 yards and that is probably a miss on a Texas Whitetail..

I not sure the old adage that your group sizes double as yardage does is true. I'm not saying groups don't get larger just that growing to twice the size is not always true especially from 100 yards to 200 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Your right there is a world of difference, and after a run to a saddle to get there in time to take a shot at a departing deer, elk or whatever with a surging heartbeat, but that still doesn't omit the need for accuracy.. A good shooting rifle is never a mistake, that accuracy helps you make a shot no matter the circumstances..a 4" rifle at 100 yards is a 8 inch rifle at 200 yards and that is probably a miss on a Texas Whitetail..

Exactly Ray - just as an accurate rifle has more error for wind estimation, it also has more error for (since he is mentioned above) what Jack O'Connor called the "wibbles and wobbles." So if you are shooting an animal with a ten inch vital area 300 yards away with a 2 MOA rifle, assuming no wind, you have two inches to wobble left, two inches to wobble right, two inches to wobble high, and two inches to wobble low. In the case of a 1/2 MOA rifle, you can wobble 4.25 inches in either direction - more than double.

The fact that a 2 MOA rifle can still hit the vital area of a deer off the bench at 300 is not vindication that 2 MOA is as good as a 1/2 MOA or even 1 MOA rifle - your ability to hit will always be better with an accurate rifle.

Gunsmoker,
Not written in stone, but in my experience its always been pretty close..

AZ.
I don't wiggle!

Is it possible that there is a difference between the abilities of someone that has the opportunity to shoot at game/critters on a daily/every other day basis in comparison to someone that is not in that same situation?

When you know you know, and you know you know,confidence replaces fear!

ya!

GWB

I guess that is as accurate as it gets. Living in the DFW Metro-Mess for 26 years, did put a crimp in my abilities. Not enough to keep me from being able to collect what I consider trophies, but having the chance to move back to the area that has always been Home to me, and being able to carry a center-fire rifle, a .22 and depending on the season a shotgun, along with a couple of rods and reels and being able tp use any of them on a daily basis, Set Me FREE. Add 10,000 acres to roam around on, a herd of buffalo to take care of, add access to two different ranges to check my rifles out on if necessary, a 100 & 200 yard range and a 100 to 400 yard range, and having from sun up to sun down to get my chores down, I guess that makes it pretty easy for me to not really sweat the small stuff.

With all that nonsense said, from my experience/observations, I think too many folks put way too much pressure on themselves, and in doing so have a hard time achieving the results they are working so hard to obtain.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Your right there is a world of difference, and after a run to a saddle to get there in time to take a shot at a departing deer, elk or whatever with a surging heartbeat, but that still doesn't omit the need for accuracy.. A good shooting rifle is never a mistake, that accuracy helps you make a shot no matter the circumstances..a 4" rifle at 100 yards is a 8 inch rifle at 200 yards and that is probably a miss on a Texas Whitetail..

Exactly Ray - just as an accurate rifle has more error for wind estimation, it also has more error for (since he is mentioned above) what Jack O'Connor called the "wibbles and wobbles." So if you are shooting an animal with a ten inch vital area 300 yards away with a 2 MOA rifle, assuming no wind, you have two inches to wobble left, two inches to wobble right, two inches to wobble high, and two inches to wobble low. In the case of a 1/2 MOA rifle, you can wobble 4.25 inches in either direction - more than double.

The fact that a 2 MOA rifle can still hit the vital area of a deer off the bench at 300 is not vindication that 2 MOA is as good as a 1/2 MOA or even 1 MOA rifle - your ability to hit will always be better with an accurate rifle.

^^^^ much better wording than mine, thank you........

Aephilli, AAZGW, and Atkinson all share my view. It's margin for error, reliability, confidence, and the one thing it takes besides an MOA rifle to shoot MOA is the practice to get it to shoot that way. I work up all my loads the way I shoot game 90% of the time - off a bi-pod. I try to work up loads under ideal conditions, but I shoot under all weather conditions and try to document range results with regards to conditions. I do not hunt charging lions or cape buffalo and I must admit the only game that really gets me cranked up in anticipation of the shooting is ducks and geese over decoys. I can let big bucks walk if I can't get the distance inside what I feel the wind will allow. That said, with my most accurate rifles I am comfortable with a good position and time, to make a 300 yard shot with a pretty nasty cross wind. With a 1/2 minute gun I know if I drift 4 inches more or less than expected I still have a solid double lung or two broken shoulders. If my estimation is better I'm right over the heart and either way in 20 to 60 yards my game is dead. I have sold a 100 beautiful rifles because 1.5" groups made me afraid to take them afield. In most cases I'm sure they would have been just fine...most cases. I also know guys that are happy to shoot three rounds from a green box into a pie plate and most of them have killed a truck load of deer. We all hunt with what our OCD will allow I imagine.

Can we agree that success on killing game lies in familiarity with the guns we shoot and knowing our personal limitations?

This was a little experimenting I did after some surgery when I had nothing else to do. All were cold bore shots (at least a day between shots) and the loads were different.

Shots 6, 7, and 8 (the wide ones) were the first three after barrel cleaning; after that the bullets hit very near where they were hitting with the respective load before.