Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply |
One of Us |
And all of them would have hit a deer or elk in Lungs if Properly aimed at same out to 300 yards or so. Good consistent rifle. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
|
One of Us |
Well I see you consistently shoot high and left and choose to re-damage the same tissue with every shot... By the way, I would love that rifle! Only one I ever had that was that consistent, not as accurate as yours, mine was about a 1" rifle, I gave to my good buddy so he could come hunting with me each fall. He only shoots a bit for practice and then come shoots a deer with it. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
|
One of Us |
With the exception of some of the game Saeed and those that hunt Africa run into, how many critters that most of us deal with present us with a 2 let alone 3 shot situation? The only ones I have had experience with are finishing shots on wounded game at close range. I keep my rifles sighted in so that any shot I am presented with, I will be able to either kill the animal with the first shot or hurt it bad enough that the next shot finishes things. One of my reasons for having the attitude I do comes from some of the experiences I have had guiding hunters. I have had hunters show up with all the latest and greatest technology, they even brought loose leaf binders with their targets they had shot, but get them out in the creosote bush and having them shoot off hand at a javelin standing 40 maybe 50 yards away and they were as lost as a child's first thought. One older gentleman I will never forget came down and hunted with me 3 or 4 times. Really nice gentleman and he hunted with an older bolt action rifle, I can't remember the brand but it was chambered in .250-3000 caliber. Every time he came down, when I got him on a javelin did not matter the range or whether he was having to shoot offhand or had a rest, I would point out the critter and it was BANG-Down. No fumbling, no fiddling with the scope, when he saw the critter the gun came up, he acquired the target and took the shot. He was a successful hunter because he found what worked for him and stuck with it, that is my base philosophy and has been since before making that gentleman's acquaintance. Different strokes for different folks, that is what makes the World Go Round. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
One of Us |
Crazy horse, great point and I agree! I think this may go hand-in-hand with what Atkinson is saying in his posts. MOA accuracy of a rifle is important because it plays into "knowing your personal limitations". The more accurate my rifle the more I use it, and I become more comfortable using the rifle (and scope) in hunting situations. I am an older hunter and personally, I am not a particularly good marksman. As a result, I try to keep my shots under 300 yards (well under if possible). I have two longer range rifles that I would go beyond 300 yards if pressed but, only because they have MOA accuracy out to my personal range limitation. Start young, hunt hard, and enjoy God's bounty. | |||
|
One of Us |
Good reading and points. I a have a sweet little Model 7 CDL in 7mm-08. Its "The rifle we call my wife's. No ownership implied." The barrel seems to be incapable of a 3 shot group less than 3 inches. I am very pleased with the rifle for some of the very reasons outlined here. After a cleaning to remove the storage oil, the first 2 shots out of a cold barrel are typically, repeatedly in the range of less than a half MOA. After that the thin barrel starts spraying. Cold barrel MOA is for hunters. Always on target with that first shot. There have been instances in my life where an accurate second shot was needed. Woods shooting whitetails and an unseen branch deflects the first round. Often a buck will freeze and offer a second shot. Still needing to thread the needle, accuracy counts. I have no experience with missing twice, thanks for asking. More than three shots on game? I hope to experience it some more in my life. An accurate rifle is not needed. Shooting large black bear fighting dogs on the ground. You have to wade right in, missing dogs and hitting bear. Shoot till he is dead. Stick your barrel in its mouth or stand on its muzzle. Many a dog has piled onto an almost dead bear and stuck a leg into the bear's jaw. Marksmanship not required, a cool head and knowledge of bear anatomy are what counts. | |||
|
one of us |
I just don't understand why one would be satisfied with less than excellence if the choice is yours..Id love to have a gun that shot 1/4 inch groups for 25 shots..but Ive had to settle for one inch or less for 3 shots..All my guns will do that. Some act as though I should be ashamed of myself! Well I ain't. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
I have not said anything like that. I could care less if you could put 50 shots out of any of your guns into one hole, caliber diameter at 400 yards. That is your business, and that of anyone else that wants that level of accuracy from their rifles, it is their/your thing not mine. Excellence means different things to different folks, for me it is dead animals with as few shots as possible. I know my limitations concerning what shots to take and what shots to think about, but then I think most folks are that way. I am a firm believer in letting the individual decide for themselves what level of performance they want or e4xpect out of themselves/their equipment, if they are satisfied, that is all that matters. I intended no offence with any of my earlier comments or this response, Sorry if anyone took any of them that way. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
one of us |
Crazy, Many here have been trying patiently to explain MOA to you politely and you won't listen! Well I'll Xplain it to ya very simply: If you don't know how your rifle groups at say 100 yd and where that group is relative to your POA, Then you really don't know shit about your rifle or your ability to shoot it!!! ________ Ray | |||
|
One of Us |
I know what MOA is, and have known since 1968.. I know where each of my rifles will put a bullet if I do my part, which I have been doing, since 1968. As an example, whether any of you believe it or not, had a guy that I had not seen in almost two years came out last Thursday, 27 April to shoot a couple of new rifles he had bought. We messed around with that a while, drove around and saw the buffaloes I take care of, and ended up going out to one of the places to see if we could get him a hog. He had used up the ammo he had brought for his rifles so I loaned him my .300 Weatherby Mark V. I simply told him if a pig came in to just hold dead on where he wanted the bullet to go. Now, he had never shot this rifle, but when the feeders went off in about a 5 minute time span we had two groups of pigs come in, he made two shots, the first on a pig at about 85 yards and the second on a pig at about 120 yards, two shots/two very dead pigs. I have NO problem with folks that WANT perfection or as close as they can get to it as far as accuracy out of THEIR rifles are concerned, more power to them. It has just never been that big an issue with me and I have been fairly successful during my hunting career. In fact those were the second and third pigs that have been killed with that rifle, all three were shot by individuals that had never shot that rifle. They simply aimed where I told them too and the results were three one shot kills, the biggest pig weighing 186 pounds. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and I just happen to believe as long as I am happy with the results I get from my rifles and my handloads, that is really all that matters to me. Anybody/Everybody that wants to work for what they consider perfection/excellence or even what they consider acceptable for them, that is their prerogative but it does not mean that I have to agree with them or that my methods do not work for me. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
one of us |
Crazyhorse, I see where your coming from and I have no arguemant at all with your approach, it works for you and that's the bottom line..If I had a 3 or even a 4" inch gun to hunt deer with Im sure I would do just as well as if I had a 1/2 inch gun, I have shot more deer and elk with a 30-30 and 25-35 with iron sights than I have with any other combo, but today Im just an accuracy nut and like the idea that I can shoot a turkey or Grouse in the head at 50 and maybe a 100 yards, well at least most of the time, and on a couple of occasions Ive popped a bull or buck in the eye or ear, mostly in the very thick stuff or have had to thread the needle through a hole in the real thick of things. BTW I hope you didn't see my post as a argument as it was ment only as conversation. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
I don't think of anyone that wants to get the best performance out of their rifles as being a nut. It is what they want, dedicated would be a better term. The concept with myself at least, is that all of us are the sum of our experiences. From my experiences, I have watched lots of folks spend a lot of time at the bench trying for a one hole - three shot group, only to get a flyer on that third shot. I have also actually had hunters show up to hunt javelin in west Texas with a loose leaf binder full of targets that they had made dime size groups on, yet get them out in the pasture and they couldn't hit a javelin broadside at 50. I just happen to be a person that sets what to me are realistic expectations. I develop a load for a rifle, that the rifle likes, I stick with it. I find a scope that I like, I stick with it and with the exception of the 3x9 Leupold on my Weatherby, everything else has a fixed 6 power K6 El Paso Weaver and it has been that way since 1968. I am not claiming that my methods are the best things going, just that they work for me sand I see no sense changing. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
one of us |
I chased the almighty sub MOA group for a great many years and sent a lot of rifles down the road when they failed to measure up. Now I'm more inclined to chase an accurate first shot with two more that are consistently within and inch or two of the first shot. I'm far happier with a consistent 2.5" rifle than I am a fickle b--ch that has to be caressed and cajoled but will shoot bug holes if the stars align properly. It's wonderful to have hunting rifles that shoot sub MOA. Consistently. I have a few. My 35 Whelen and my 300 H&H both think they're varmint guns. I suppose if I stuck a high power scope on my 400 Whelen it would do the same. It's good for 1.5 inch groups all day long with a 2 3/4x PCH scope. I've heard lots of guys state they wouldn't have a rifle that would not shoot sub MOA. I've also seen some of those guys shoot in the field and their bug hole gun was of little value to them away from the bench. Then there's the heirloom rifles. Do they send grandpa's old model 70 down the road because the best it will do is two inches? My wife's BSA Majestic 308 is a two inch gun. There are times it will wiggle three into a one inch group but it's a two inch gun. I've played with enough loads to know to expect no better. But it will do it every day of the year. That rifle belonged to her brother and her son and only child, both deceased. She has taken mule deer, whitetails, elk and moose with it and never, ever, taken a second shot. If I even hinted she should sell it and get something more accurate, I'd be in for a restocking job when she broke the stock over my head. I'd rather work toward a consistent group from the bench, and then move to position shooting for practice. "...I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
One of Us |
If I fail to bag, I want to KNOW it wasn't the gun. Death rays are fun, but rare. 2 cents _______________________ | |||
|
one of us |
As has been said in different ways: accuracy helps build confidence - confidence helps build competence. Who doesn't want competence? | |||
|
one of us |
I concur with Mart..its a good approach.. I have over a lifetime put together some keepers and these are the guns I hunt with.. My requirements are" 2. They hold a zero and shoot at least the first three shots under an inch. 3. The shoot almost every load combination to the same point of aim..This is the hardest of guns to find.. 4. They are wood and blue, not allowed to warp else they go down the road.. 5 No excuses on feed and function.. It takes a lifetime to put together a team of rifles like this, some are custom and some are just factory, and it applies to any action or caliber..I even have a Win. mod. 94 SRC 30-30 trapper that will do this and another that comes close enough to keep so far. My three Savage 99s will do this also...I recently sold a high dollar custom rifle for no other reason than it was a 2" rifle with all loads.. I am a accuracy nut and these guns were one of me goals, I love a perfect gun, but its not for everyone. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
And that was my original point. Some folks believe a person should spend as much or more for a scope, than the rifle it will go on, but not me, I have done quite well with steel tube K6 El Paso Weavers for 47 years or so and don't see any reason to change at this point in the game. I don't see anything wrong with a person wanting such things or wanting the most consistently accurate rifle they can acquire, that is their thing and I say go for it. Life is too short not to have/get what you really want and right or wrong some folks just don't set as high of goals as others. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
Administrator |
With the choice, and quality of rifles available today, one has no excuse in using an inaccurate rifle. The rifles we build, even sporters, will shoot 1/4 inch groups with their preferred loads. We just built a 6MM PPC on a Sako S491 action. The first 3 shots I fired through at after sighting it in went 0.205"! To say that the owner was rather happy is an understatement! | |||
|
One of Us |
But, who is the final judge of the level of accuracy required, the person using the gun or the "Peanut Gallery"? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
one of us |
Agreed, CH. My "excuse" is that I have some rifles that have a family history, that I enjoy hunting with, that (horrors!!) only shoot 1.5" groups off a bench. But I enjoy hunting with them and they kill deer just as well as an "accurate" rifle would. | |||
|
One of Us |
I think all in all this has been a good discussion, for if nothing else it points out that not everyone dances to the same tune. Some folks are perfectionists or if not perfectionists, have set levels or performance in anything/most things they do that they expect of themselves and their equipment. Some of us are just not as intense and settle for what gets the job we want done, done. There is room for all of us, especially when all of us realize that there is room for variation. Thanks for everyone's comments/responses. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
One of Us |
This has been a lengthy discussion but one which has enlightened me. I assumed everyone would demand sub MOA but I can now see that under many hunting conditions it's not one of the requirements. I hunt lots of wide open terrain with huge canyons where shots tend to be long but that's not the way many hunt and I forgot that for a while. When some of you guys talk about the "feeder" at scant yards away, I can see why MOA is something that isn't worth worrying about. If you're shooting a big ole muley at 5X that range, sub MOA is a prerequisite. We're all different and have varying needs. Thanks for pointing that out again to me and thank God I can be me and you can be you!. Zeke | |||
|
One of Us |
Again it is all in the individuals experiences, but the common denominator, or at least to me, is the abilities and confidence of the person pulling the trigger. In any equation where humans are involved, they are always the weak link. Guns are emotionless, they do not breath, they do not think, they do not get excited, they do not flinch, but add a human to the mix and even a scope/rifle/ammo combination will put 20 shots in the same hole, the human is the weak link. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia