I'm anxiously awaiting CEBs .358 bullets. I'd like to load them for my 350 Rem Mag which I took to Botswana a year ago. I'd also be interested in some of their .308 bullets for my 30-06. As we all know, they are light for caliber. Most of the discussion has been in the big bore forum with very positive reviews.
Anyone taken them to Africa in a medium bore for plains game?

I have imported some 255gr HP Raptors and 280 gr Solids for my 9.3X62.

I am going to Zim in Sept & hope to shoot some PG with those.

Just read a report (graybird) who shot a blue wildebeest from his 300WM using a 145gr CEB raptor. It dropped after less than 50 yards. That says a lot about the raptor. Skinner said the vitals were mush.

I've taken exactly 5 animals now with 145 gr CEB ESP Raptor bullets out of my 300 Win Mag at just a touch over 3400 fps.

The first deer I took left me rather unimpressed with the results from a cape and hide standpoint. The doe was between 125-150 yards away. I was shooting off hand and when the trigger broke, I knew it was too low. I saw what appeared to be dirt fly up from behind the deer, which was likely hair and deer parts after looking over the place of impact. The doe ran about 75-100 yards and piled up into a fence.

Having said that, the last deer I shot was about 100 yards away, mostly broadside, but ever so slightly quartering away. The heart was literally blown to pieces. I shot the doe at last light and she piled up about 50 yards away. After gutting, I was trying to inspect the heart. After searching, I finally realized the heart was missing and only a very small portion was still attached to the lungs via the veins and arteries. I dumped the blood from the body and picked up three pieces of the heart that was left in the body cavity. It had literally exploded. I didn't take a picture, and the crows got to it before I did the following morning.

I've taken four deer now with these bullets and the jury is still out. I shot a small fawn that was hard quartering towards shot at roughly 225 yards, just behind the shoulder purposely missing the shoulder, exiting thru the paunch and blowing a hole in the off side about 6-7" in diameter. The onside lung was mush and the backside lungs you could tell 2 of the petals had gone thru a portion of it. The deer made it about 150 yards and I put another into it as it was about to make it into some trees. The second shot was a bit far back as well and went thru the liver blowing a hole about 3-4" in diameter on the exit. The deer didn't make it about 30-40 yards after the second hit coming to rest just inside the tree line.

Another doe was shot at about 75 yards on a quartering towards shot making a mess of the lungs. The doe piled up about 50 yards away.

I'm surprised None of the deer I've taken thus far have been DRT, but I've purposely stayed away from the shoulder until I'm more confident that I don't get the grenade type detonation as I did with the first deer. All have made it at least 50 yards, but blood trails were easily followed and quite impressive.

Just Friday I shot a lone blue wildebeest bull at 82 yards quartering away. The shot was in the crease of the shoulder heading toward the opposite leg. The bull bucked, kicked and took off at the shot. The bull was piled up roughly 35 yards from the shot. Surprisingly, the bullet did not exit, which could be explained by the close shot distance and the extreme bullet speed. The skinner said the heart and lungs were a mess, and he wasn't impressed because of the destruction. The offside shoulder was broken and the skinner also stated there was meat damage. All to be expected, but I didn't get a chance to inspect the carcass and I was not given the bullet shank.

In the end, every animal I have shot these bullets at has died even with not so great bullet placement at times, but with blood trails even a blind man could follow.

GB-
Thanks for the details. It does seem surprising that those deer would not be DRT.

Rob

Dan and his son from CEB hunted PG with Raptors in Africa. You can see the videos on you tube. I think I posted links in the medium bore terminal performance thread. There are other reports posted there.

quote:

I've taken exactly 5 animals now with 145 gr CEB ESP Raptor bullets out of my 300 Win Mag at just a touch over 3400 fps.

And they all ran. I'm not all that surprised. I bet we both know what would have happened if you would have cranked those deer with a 150 grain Ballistic-tip at those speeds. Hard bullets are hopelessly over-rated when used on soft targets.

I've got couple cull hunts coming up shortly where I'll compare CEBs with more conventional bullets. I'm cautiously optimistic on buffalo, but its going to take some proving to convince me on soft, thinned animals.

I also would love to hear how the 235 raptor in 375 would work, have not seen any reports on it?

I really can't tell you guys much about the rat bullets, however I load for several of my buddies at home for deer. In 308 I load the 100 ESP Raptor for 3 of the guys and they have taken 25-30 deer over the last 2 years and the furthest any of them ran was a 10 pt to 5 yards. The rest have been DRT.

I have one guy that has shot over 20 deer with 223, for him I load the 50 Raptor, one heart shot deer ran 40 yards and hit the dirt, the rest have not taken step. Another youngster, 8 yrs old, uses the 50 Raptor and has now taken 7 deer with it, none have run at all for him.

Also no bullets have been recovered from any.....

I personally have used the 210 ESP Raptor in 9.3 B&M at 2900 fps and taken 12+ plains game from impala to zebra. On all the animals less than wildebeest size they dropped to the shot. On wildebeest size animals 1/2 made a death run of 25-40 yards and died on their feet. Of 3 zebras shot all of them made a death run from 30-70 yards and died literally on their feet piling up rather spectacularly.

Maybe our South Carolina deer are not as tough as others.....????????? Can't say, don't hunt deer......

Michael

Michael,
Thanks for sharing that info!

quote:

Originally posted by Ropati:
Michael,
Thanks for sharing that info!

You are welcome... I wish I had more to report on the mediums (rat calibers) but the lightest caliber I have any personal experience with is the 9.3s....... I know what my guys at home have told me about all the deer with the 308 100 ESP Raptor, and the 50 gr 223 Raptor. My son last year shot a big 10 pt deer on our farm with 50 Raptor in 223. It was not the best of shots either, I forgot about this one. I think it only caught one lung. This deer did go about 20 yards before laying down for the count.

HEH.... I have a buddy that is bad about shooting gators (not entirely proper at home).... He shot one small six footer with 223 WSSM and 50 Raptor at over 4000 fps. It blew the head completely off and flung it up on the bank..... HEH.... Rather spectacular show I reckon.........

I have never used or tested any of the Copper Raptors, so I can't say anything about them one way or the other. But with the 130 ESP Raptor, you have to have a faster twist, 1:10 to fully stabilize these. I have a 308 in 1:12 twist that shoots tiny bug holes at 50 yards, but not with the 130s. Drop to the 100s and it is amazing at how good it shoots. For deer pigs and up to 250 lb critters there is no reason to use anything but the 100s. If I were shooting wildebeest and larger with .308 caliber move to the 130s...... These are the brass ESP Raptors. I have never heard of anything but these being devastating on everything and anything shot.

I have shot literally 100s of animals with 416-.500 caliber with various weights of Raptors. I have never in my life seen such massive trauma inflicted as what these bullets do. Every person, to a man that has been witness to these, professional hunters, guides, other hunters and shooters, its all the exact or near exact statement upon seeing this trauma..... It goes like this....

"I Have never seen anything like that in my life"............ To a man.........

Why graybeards deer run? I don't know, how in the hell does an animal run with NO HEART? Animals can do miracle things in the field, some just cannot be explained. We have not seen this in our SC Deer or anything else shot with the bullets I have mentioned........ ???????

Michael

An animal with no heart can run until it's brain runs out of oxygen. A better question might be why some animals go down like they've been spined while others don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
An animal with no heart can run until it's brain runs out of oxygen. A better question might be why some animals go down like they've been spined while others don't.

Absolutely correct Dogleg....... Sometimes animals just don't realize they should be stone cold. I have seen it many times in buffalo.......

M

I still haven't found a reliable way to crumple a buffalo that doesn't involve the spine or brain. I haven't given up though.


Light game can usually be poleaxed with fast opening soft bullets at high speeds. My most consistent success in that area has been starting velocities in the 3500 fps area and leaving the lead in the bullets.

Some people are thrilled with deer that run 50 or 100 yards or more, others know that they can be dropped immediately. It may not be a 100% thing but 90% is well within reach.

I'm looking forward to using the .458 CEBs on my buffalo cull in August; assuming the permits come through in time. Those Aussie police like to let the suspense build.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Ropati:
Michael,
Thanks for sharing that info!

You are welcome... I wish I had more to report on the mediums (rat calibers) but the lightest caliber I have any personal experience with is the 9.3s....... I know what my guys at home have told me about all the deer with the 308 100 ESP Raptor, and the 50 gr 223 Raptor. My son last year shot a big 10 pt deer on our farm with 50 Raptor in 223. It was not the best of shots either, I forgot about this one. I think it only caught one lung. This deer did go about 20 yards before laying down for the count.

HEH.... I have a buddy that is bad about shooting gators (not entirely proper at home).... He shot one small six footer with 223 WSSM and 50 Raptor at over 4000 fps. It blew the head completely off and flung it up on the bank..... HEH.... Rather spectacular show I reckon.........

I have never used or tested any of the Copper Raptors, so I can't say anything about them one way or the other. But with the 130 ESP Raptor, you have to have a faster twist, 1:10 to fully stabilize these. I have a 308 in 1:12 twist that shoots tiny bug holes at 50 yards, but not with the 130s. Drop to the 100s and it is amazing at how good it shoots. For deer pigs and up to 250 lb critters there is no reason to use anything but the 100s. If I were shooting wildebeest and larger with .308 caliber move to the 130s...... These are the brass ESP Raptors. I have never heard of anything but these being devastating on everything and anything shot.

I have shot literally 100s of animals with 416-.500 caliber with various weights of Raptors. I have never in my life seen such massive trauma inflicted as what these bullets do. Every person, to a man that has been witness to these, professional hunters, guides, other hunters and shooters, its all the exact or near exact statement upon seeing this trauma..... It goes like this....

"I Have never seen anything like that in my life"............ To a man.........

Why graybeards deer run? I don't know, how in the hell does an animal run with NO HEART? Animals can do miracle things in the field, some just cannot be explained. We have not seen this in our SC Deer or anything else shot with the bullets I have mentioned........ ???????

Michael

Michael... I picked up a Ruger Hawkeye 300 RCM 1-10" twist 20" barrel with iron sights left hand....took it to a local gunsmith he's going to rechamber it to 300 WSM for me....just need to make up my mind 100gr. or 130gr. CEB's....sort of leaning to the 100gr. all it's going to be used for is deer,coyotes and hopefully a wolf if they open a season in my area this year....

I'am saving the Winchester 70 300 WSM left hand for a 50 B&M SS....just waiting to sell the 9.3 B&M and 50 B&M SS....

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
...
I'am saving the Winchester 70 300 WSM left hand for a 50 B&M SS....just waiting to sell the 9.3 B&M and 50 B&M SS....

I think you will need to go to another caliber for that lefty 300 WSM action. From Michael's web site:
http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...B-M-Super-Short.html
"The cartridge is designed to work with the Winchester M70 WSSM action, with 16 inch barrels. "

Dog...........

Mighty damn hard to crumple old buff with anything that can be hunted with, I concur..... The most effective bullet I have seen so far on buffalo is from the 500 MDM and the 450 Raptor at 2450 fps, it has crumpled them in the past, but not all of them, some have run but not very far. Last week I shot a cow buffalo with 500 B&M with 410 Raptor at 2500 fps. All this one could do was turn around 180 degrees and start to go down, before it was completely down I hit it with a 450#13 Solid through both shoulders exiting, however the 450 #13 Solid passed through an 8 inch diameter tree before hitting the buff!!!!! I have crumpled many a Australian buff with these bullets.

My son Mark David busted a really good buffalo on this trip as well with his 475 B&M Super Short. Shot was about 25 yards with a 320 Raptor at 2300 fps, top of the heart, buff went 12-15 yards and down.

I used the 420 Raptor in my 458 B&M on several buffalo in the past, both Aussie and Capes.... It did a great job on them. I never had any of them get more than about 15-20 yards before hitting the dirt. Have not recovered many of those either. Most will exit unless full frontal shot.

Nothing can soak up bullets like a buffalo....... Thats why I love to shoot them so good!!!!!

Coyote....... With that 1:10 twist you have the option of using either bullet. But for your purposes there is no reason to use anything but the 100 ESP. Perhaps one day you might want to shoot something larger, and use the 130 at that point I suppose.....

As for the 300WSM action in Super Short, it can be done, Brent and I did one of them in 458 Super Short and it worked fine, left lots of room in the magazine however, which sorta looked funny.... But it did work. You might consider just doing a full 50 B&M and loading to 50 Super Short velocity too, and then have the capabilities of going heavy if needed..... Wait, just remembered, I think you have that cartridge limitation in Michigan... And that is why the 1.65 inch Super Short.... Yes, as I recall.....

M

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
An animal with no heart can run until it's brain runs out of oxygen. A better question might be why some animals go down like they've been spined while others don't.

In my experience do I very rarely get a DRT by center punching the heart.
Most of the time I get a DRT, I hit the animal in the shoulder, just on top of the heart.
I think this is by far the best shot placement for a DRT or short runs.
I also think the CEBs benefits a lot from this shotplacement to result in DRTs.
You might ruin more meat, but it is worth it in my opinion.
I also think speed helps with getting DRT.

With my 6.5-06, I have a high percentage(around 50%) of DRT on deer of different kinds.
After I started(3 years ago) to use 120 gr TTSX leaving the barrel at 3367, the percentage of DRT is even higher, but I have only shot 21 deer with it so far, so it is to early to conclude.
Of the 21 deer shot, 16 of them was DRT and the longest run after the hit has been around 50 meters.

Coyote....... With that 1:10 twist you have the option of using either bullet. But for your purposes there is no reason to use anything but the 100 ESP. Perhaps one day you might want to shoot something larger, and use the 130 at that point I suppose.....

The Ruger is going to be sitting by the back doorwall ready just encase a varmint or deer cross the back field....since getting 458 B&M just don't need anything else...HE HE...

____________________________________________

As for the 300WSM action in Super Short, it can be done, Brent and I did one of them in 458 Super Short and it worked fine, left lots of room in the magazine however, which sorta looked funny.... But it did work. You might consider just doing a full 50 B&M and loading to 50 Super Short velocity too, and then have the capabilities of going heavy if needed..... Wait, just remembered, I think you have that cartridge limitation in Michigan... And that is why the 1.65 inch Super Short.... Yes, as I recall.....

M[/QUOTE]

________________________________________________

In Zone 3 we are limited to 35 caliber, 1.8" brass length in a rifle.... I loaded some CEB 300gr. with tips 2.52" OAL....

I amended this post as I may have spoken too soon. I do not know if the bullets I received are the final design or not.


358 Raptor Samples for testing.

.358 brass 150gr and the copper 160gr.

In the mail today. Almost too beautiful to send down range. Both are the same length from base to tip.

I am not 100% certain where to start loads for these in 350Magnum, but it should be very interesting before it is all over!

How'd you get those .358 Raptors? Still not on the website.

quote:

Originally posted by Ropati:
How'd you get those .358 Raptors? Still not on the website.

Funny you should ask.

The old 175gr Brass won't stabilize for shit in my model 600 due to Remington using a 1-16 twist. Seems to be an issue for the Whelen too in Remy rifles.

In an email with a tech-Angelo @ CEB I described my intentions to use the 140gr Handgun bullets in my 350 Magnum. I wanted some custom tips made.

The tips for the 175gr have the perfect ogive to use with the 140gr, but the base was too small to snap into the HP. So I ordered a bunch of other tip sizes. The base of the tips for the .409 Raptor are perfect. Now to just combine the ogive from the "old" .358 tip with the base from the .409 tip and voila.

Turns out the 175gr design has been discontinued mainly due to the slow twist in Remington rifles(if you have a Ruger chambered in 350Mag you can still use the 175gr as Ruger used a 1-12.) I would hope the program for the 175gr still exists for those wanting to use it-think 358Norma, 358STA, and 358Ultra.

Angelo sent some of the new bullets for me to test and provide feedback. I was not aware they were not on the website yet.

I still plan to order some custom tips and see how hard I can push the 140gr while maintaining accuracy.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

I've taken exactly 5 animals now with 145 gr CEB ESP Raptor bullets out of my 300 Win Mag at just a touch over 3400 fps.

And they all ran. I'm not all that surprised. I bet we both know what would have happened if you would have cranked those deer with a 150 grain Ballistic-tip at those speeds. Hard bullets are hopelessly over-rated when used on soft targets.

I've got couple cull hunts coming up shortly where I'll compare CEBs with more conventional bullets. I'm cautiously optimistic on buffalo, but its going to take some proving to convince me on soft, thinned animals.

Dogleg I couldn't agree more with what you have said. I have never in all my years of hunting had an animal run more than a few yards if they have run at all rather than just lurch and tip over. I use nothing else than Sierra GK bullets. My 7x61 shot the Sierra GK 160gr at 3000fps and took a lot of game both standing and running. close and far, and nothing ran in terms of taking off and finally falling over. Using 140gr GK in the 7x57 and now my 7mm-08 produced/s the same results. The game has been red, fallow and whitetail deer, chamois and tahr.

I belt them through the shoulders side on, high brisket if front on, or if facing and angling away or running away, high up behind the ribs.

I just couldn't stand to have animals run off and tip over yards away and wouldn't entertain a bullet that was going to allow this.