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Question: has the tipped 'all metal bullets' solved the occational problem of 'all metal bullets' without the tip of not opening up? I have never used 'all metal' hunting bullets, but I am considering using the Hornady GMX 250 gr. in my 375 H&H on my next safari. At 2,900 fps, it should shoot flat enough for an anticpated long shot. I have read on this forum of 'all metal bullets' sometimes not opening and acting like a solid. Just wondering from all of you out there with experinece with the tipped variety, if the tip has solved this problem? Any information is apprecaited.  | ||
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I used a Barnes 80gr. TTSX out of a 243win chronographed at 3045fps in December on a damage control mule deer doe at 230yds. She was hard angle uphill heading away from me. Hit her centered behind the left shoulder and excited in front of right shoulder towards the wind pipe. She ran 20yds and did a nose dive. Entrance was larger then excite do to tanking out a couple ribs. Found one copper pedestal underneath hide by excite. Hunting partner used a Hornady 80gr. GMX in his 243win and shot a mule deer doe in the neck and it was a complete pass through and looked by the entrance and excite it expanded, A couple years ago had a co-worker shoot a mule deer buck with 243win using factory Barnes 80gr, TTSX ammo and he had to chase into next canyon. Finishing shot was in the neck and he recovered complete bullet without the tip and it didn't expand at all. | |||
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I have been useing Barnes 7mm 140 ttsx in my 284 at 3054 and 338 210 ttsx In my 338/06 at 2750 for the last 4 years. Shot 11 deer and never recovered a bullet. All 11 dropped like a sack of patatoes. So I asume they opened up.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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Due to the violent nature in which they are propelled, the composition of the target, and impact velocity, all expandable (and even some solid) bullets have the possibility to fail. I have never seen a Barnes fail to expand but I'm sure it has happened. I think the greater question to ask is which is worse: a bullet that blows up before it hits the vitals or a bullet that pencils through the vitals? My go to deer hunting round (if I remember to bring them) is a 150 gr Swift Scirocco pushed to a pedestrian 2457ft/sec. That bullet doesn't expand much at all, generally leaving only nickle size exit wounds. I like it because it doesn't leave hardly any bloodshot meat. On the down side, deer run twice the distance after the shot. So instead of running 20yds after the shot, they go 40 yds before collapsing. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Early on I had 3 failures with Barnes X bullets, and quit using them, although all three were recovered with difficulty.. I suspect they have improved and corrected those bullets since then, or so Im told by folks I have a a good deal of trust in....but with past experiences like that I doubt that I will be all that forgiving inasmuch as I have never had a failure with a Nosler, Woodleigh, Win. PP, Rem corelokt, Swift or North Fork..Back in the 1940s it wasn't unusual to have a failure with any bullet, but again most if not all of that has been corrected..I recall when HOrnad, Sierra, and some others would fail from time to time, worst was the Rem Bronze point, and the WW open point expanding bullets, they killed like dynamite most of the time, and on occasion came apart like a bomb on the outside skin... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Friend was PH in Alaska. He told me years ago he seen Barnes X failure on bears. All petals gone and other malfunctions. He is a Swift A-Frame guy. Jiri | |||
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If I remember correctly from my high school and college chemistry classes, lead is a metal. (Picky, picky, picky)  I started using Barnes bullets in 2005, when I developed a load with their 300 grain TSX bullet for my .375 RUM for a Zimbabwe buffalo hunt. The skinners dug that perfectly expanded bullet that still weighed 299.4 grains from the opposite shoulder of my buffalo. And 4 other PG animals easily fell to those TSX bullets. On my next trip to South Africa, I used 270 grain Barnes TSX bullets in my .375 RUM to easily killed 13 animals varying in size from a couple of Steenboks to a Cape Eland. In 2009 I built my .300 Weatherby and although I had been a long time fan of the 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets, I decided new gun, new bullets, so I developed loads with both 168 and 180 grain Barnes TSX bullets. Both shot 3 shot moa groups, and I decided to use the 168s. My first hunt with these bullets was for 3 Texas exotics, and all were quick one shot kills. The following fall, a 5x5 Montana bull elk only took 3 steps after being hit with one of those 168 grain TSX bullets. A few years later I decided to try the Barnes Tipped triple shock bullets, and developed a load with their 168 grain TTSX for my .300 Weatherby. That fall, another 5x5 Montana bull elk dropped in his tracks from one of those bullets. I then used my .300 Weatherby and 168 grain Barnes TTSX bullets on another South African hunt where they performed flawlessly on 5 animals from Klipspringer to Sable, and on a New Zealand hunt for another 5 animals from a Fallow buck to a Red Deer Stag. This past year I developed a sub moa load for the 180 grain Barnes TTSX bullets in my .300 Weatherby, and I used it for an instant kill on a 328 yard shot on a Dagestan Tur in Azerbaijan. Of the 30+ animals that I have shot with TSX or TTSX bullets, I have only recovered 8 bullets, but I did not look for bullets in all of the animals. Of those 8 bullets, 5 were perfect mushrooms, and the other 3 had fully mushroomed, but 2 had lost one petal and one had lost 2 petals. I still use a variety of copper/lead bullets in my other rifles, but the Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets that I have hunted with have all performed well for me. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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I think the term you're looking for is "monometal" rather than "all metal". The monometals typically kill what they are shot into. Just as FMJ's do. In fact, probably more mammalians have been killed with FMJ's than with otherwise "expanding" bullets of any construction. That's not to say that FMJ performance is what you would prefer in a bullet. The monometals should be reserved for the limited jurisdictions where bullets containing lead are prohibited. | |||
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I shoot 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, .308 cal and .375 cal monometal (tipped and untipped) Barnes bullets and have never had a failure in over 10 years. The brass alloy bullets, I don't have confidence in, not because they don't expand but because in some configurations they are too brittle and shatter on impact. I have had two failures with the 235 grain Cutting Edge Extended Range Raptor bullets in my 375 H&H. One blew up on the shoulder of a bushbuck at 230 yards (3,100 fps at the muzzle). The bushbuck required an hour of tracking, two more 375 bullets and four .40 Cal Black Talons to put down. The first bullet blew up on the shoulder joint and never penetrated the vitals. The same bullet failed the next day by exploding in the belly of a jackal at 200 yards and almost blowing it in half. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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A few comments about monometal and other bullets. In my experience (I've only hunted for 55 years) most cup and core bullets perform perform quite well IF the impact velocity is below 2800 fps. This covers most std calibres like the 30-06, 270,280,308 etc. Plain old core lokt,Speer spitzers, Sierra PSP,Hornady Spire pts ,Nosler BT all work fine at reasonable velocities. When some would load these cup and core bullets in larger cartridges (such as 7mm rem various 300 mag)velocities over 3000 fps are quite possible. Std cup and core bullets start to come apart and do not penetrate reliably on game. At these elevated velocities a better bullet is required. Whether you choose a Partition, an A frame, a bonded bullet or a monometal bullet is up to you, they all work. I think some people are creating their own problems when they start putting tougher bullets on std velocity cartridges and then complaining that the bullet will not open up. I started using Barnes bullets around 1990. Had some issues with the original X bullets but when the TSX and TTSX came out all problems were fixed. I've taken close to 100 head of game with TSX and TTSX bullets and have never had a failure. I've also tried Nosler E-tip and Hornady GMX and they perform in a similar fashion. Monometals do NOT make a wound channel as large as a cup and core bullet but they penetrate far deeper. In most cases they will exit. I think many who claim a monometal doesn't open is confused by how deep they penetrate. | |||
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No bullet will perform perfectly 100% of the time. I think some copper bullet do not open due to the angle it hits the animal. We have had a few that did not open at all, but still killed the animal. | |||
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Saeed an thecanadian have the right approach. No bullet is 100% reliable. So you have to decide what kinda failure do you want, a premature blow-up or less expansion and full penetration. Funny thing about empirical evidence, of all the monometal "failures" the only ones that we are 100% sure of are those which were recovered from dead animals. The other reported "pencil thru and the animal got away', we likely really don't know of the actual bullet placement or if there was even a hit unless someone had hi-speed hi fidelity video tape because there is always doubt when the hunter says - "I know I hit it right behind the shoulder" Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Actually, I shot a kudu with a 225 TSX. PH said, "You hit him hard." The thing just stood there; IIRC I think he actually started feeding again. After five minutes, it looked like he was going to walk away, so he said shoot again. I shot him quartering away and he went down. When we skinned it out at the skinning shed we could see the first bullet went through the lungs and made a very small hole on the opposite side. If that kudu had run instead of stand there, I doubt I would have recovered him. I shot a moose in 2016 using the same bullet and everything worked fine (I will admit I was a bit nervous, but I had not worked up loads for any other bullet), but when I went after brown bear last October I used a Swift A Frame. I have never had an issue with that bullet. Ever. | |||
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My questions is why did you wait 5 minutes. Must have been saving ammo. I learned a long time ago keep shooting till they are down and dead if they are down and moving shoot them again. As some else said the famous last words of trophy fee gone bad is don't shoot again you hit him hard the first time. | |||
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The Nosler partition is as close to perfection as hunting bullets get. That's the reason every manufacturer has been trying to emulate their performance for the past 65 years. IME the orignal Barnes X were a so-so perfomer, terrible barrel fouler, and hard to get to shoot accurately. The newer TSX are better, but here were/are many documented cases of bullets not expanding, primarily due to the "clogged" tiny hollow point tips supposedly. That's the primary reason Barnes came up with the TTSX. | |||
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AnotherAZwriter, I am assuming that you know the bullet went thru both lungs because there was lung damage from the first bullet? correct? I am also assuming that you didn't actually recovery that first bullet? What was the path of the second bullet and what damage did it do? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Been using them for close to 30 years on 3 continents. African, North and South American game. Velocities from 308 to 300RUM and calibers from 223 to 375. Critters from coyotes to elk. Never had a "failure" and wouldn't use anything else. They do impart less kinetic energy to the target owing to their smaller frontal area when opened so CNS hits are preferred. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I am assuming that you know the bullet went thru both lungs because there was lung damage from the first bullet? correct? Ans: Correct I am also assuming that you didn't actually recovery that first bullet? Ans: correct What was the path of the second bullet and what damage did it do? Ans: it entered just behind the last rib, penetrated both lungs, and lodged in the opposite side. Perfect mushroom. I have shot tons of animals myself with the .338 TSX; everything from lion and leopard in Tanz to moose and elk, but I also lost a bear once. Shot him sitting across sticks, slightly quartering away, aimed for the opposite shoulder. At the shot, his off leg went up in the air, he dropped instantly, but then got up and took off in a dead run into a nearby alder patch. We looked quickly but saw like one drop of blood. My guide wanted to wait until the next day since it was getting dark. That night it poured rain - all night. The next day we found one leaf with a spot of blood on it (it was flipped upside down). The alder patch was huge and we spend hours looking, but if that bear could run even one minute he could have gone anywhere. I can certainly hit a clay pigeon every time shooting sitting with sticks at 180 yards. I was dead steady on that shot, but figured maybe I aimed too high. Well, after that kudu, I have my doubts. As JG Raider said, the Partition is as close to perfection as it gets. Well, the Swift is the Partition in spades: the front half is bonded. I have never lost a game animal with a Swift. What I don't get is why so many people prefer a TSX over a Swift. | |||
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AnotherAzWriter, Well based on what you said and that a) you did not recover the first bullet and b) the size of exit wound is not necessarily indicative of expansion because of the elastic nature of the animals hide (size of exit wound is often caused by secondary bone projectiles). Here is what we actually know: 1) Your first shot went thru the lungs 2) The animal reacted but did not run off and stayed on its feet for a while 3) The second shot also went thru the lungs 4) The animal dropped after the second shot. Here is what we don't know: 1) How the first bullet actually expanded (we know how the animal re-acted) 2) Was the animal going to tip over in another 30 seconds if you had not shot a second time. 3) Would the animal have tipped over 50 yards into a death sprint. Your post actually proves my point about empirical evidence - we observed animal reactions, we din't observe the expansion of the bullet. Many of us have observed an animal sprint 75 yards and then tip over; if an animal can do that, it can certainly walk for an extended period of time. Of course if you actually analyzed the lungs in the gut pile and determined this part of the lung was damaged by the first bullet and this part by the second bullet then that would be additional information. None of the above is a defense of monometal bullets nor a disparagement of your shooting it is a analysis of to be careful whether bullets actually expanded or didn't expanded. Your conclusions may be accurate but their also is an alternative explanation. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My issue with mono bullets isn't so much whether they work as designed. Its more that I'm less than thrilled with them even when they do work. | |||
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Not exactly the same but in my case I definitely prefer the TTSX over Swift Scirocco. Solely because I load all my ammo and through the 4 barrels I regularly shoot ( Blaser, Sako, NZ manufactured True Flite, Tikka ) I find it relatively straightforward to work up good accurate loads with TTSX bullets. Not so with Swift Scirocco which can seem OK one day and unpredictable the next, for reasons I can't fathom. Magazine length in a couple of rifles restricts wriggle room with COAL so possibly this has bearing but life is too short to spend countless hours trying to sort the problem. I now use all TTSX in calibres under .375 and TSX in .375 cal. I am very satisfied with their performance for hunting and will continue using these. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Even though you mention the Scirocco, you hit the nail on the head .30-06 - accuracy. Most guys would shoot a TSX that shoot 3/4 min vs a Swift A Frame that shoots 1 1/4. I too find TSXs relatively easy to get to shoot well. But Hornady ELDs and Bergers kick the TSX butt all day long, and some guys shoot them for that reason. But at the end of the day, the terminal ballistics of the A Frame are better than the TSX or the other bullets. We never have a debate about the terminal performance of the A Frame, do we? | |||
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Guys, I think if you hunt long enough you'll see that Saeed's statement below is very true. I've had the most dependable of bullets do crazy things on a few occasions such as change bullet path 90 degrees while in the animal!
I agree with Mike. As for the mono metal bullets I think you have to give up some DRT's for amazing penetration. Also in my experience if I shoot to put the mono metal bullet through the shoulders death comes much quicker than a lung shot on thin skinned game. As JGRaider said that old time Nosler Partition if it shoots in your gun is going to be tough to beat on most game. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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All these years I was under the impression that lead was a metal - who'd a thot? | |||
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I think in some cases of failure with mono bullets is the thin nose pinches shut or bends on a rib hit at an angle and it simply cannot perform from that point on.. A far as Im concerned I will stick with mostly Nosler partitions or Accubonds, along with Woodleighs, North Forks, and Swifts..I will always use cup and core bullets for Whitetail and mule deer as a rule..My favorite cup and core bullets are the Win Power Point and the Rem Corelokt, both of which work as well on elk as they do on whitetail.. If I going to use a monolithic bullet it will be the GS Customs bullet.. Not saying my pick is the best or worst, its just what has always worked for me without a failure for a lifetime. If a bullet fails for me, I see no reason why I should use it again, and I won't..thats my option and nobody elses..We all have that option. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I or people I load for also have killed dozens of critters with the T/TSX without a failure. we have also had animals that have had very small exits, but we found chest cavities you could pour out. I also love how easy they are to get great accuracy from especially in the Weatherby calibers. I guess failures have happened, but I would still have to see one to make me stop using them tipped or not. | |||
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Wow! Ask and ye shall receive. Thanks everyone for all of the great info and experience sharing. That's what's so great about AR. So much experience that one could never get experimenting on one's own. And the time/cost to find out! I am contemplating using the 375 H&H Hornady 250 GMX on Sitatunga. I'm thinkng the shot may be long, so I was intrigued by the 2,900 fps. Didn't want to use the 300 gr. rounds too badly. Sounds like the majority of users are pretty happy with the results. I was hoping the 'tip' had solved what Ray had mentioned with the 'pinched' hollow points. I've mostly used Ballistic Silvertips for light game in NA, and Nosler Partitions for larger game. In Africa, I've used the NP also, and Trophy Bonded Bearclaws plus Swift A-Frames and various other solids. I've never used 'monometal' softs (that's the word I couldn't think of!).  Thanks again to everyone. On a silly sidenote, now that I've been educated on the term 'monometal', since lead is indeed a metal, wouldn't it be correct to call 'all lead' bullets monometals? Just kidding...but food for philosophical thought.  | |||
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Surefire, The "tip" and the hollow point issue you're referring to, is 3 different bullets. The updated non-tipped will work as well as the tipped. I think what you're thinking is the old X, which is not available anymore. The current TSX (no tip) works just as well as the TTSX, GSX, ETIP tipped monos. I had the TSX perform just as well as the TTSX. TSX 130gr from a 30-06 opened just fine on a mule deer, which is not exactly a tough job If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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A 3/4 inch rifle is nice but really is not needed for big game hunting unless you are going to shoot past 500 yards. A 1.25 inch rifle will give you a 6.25 inch group at 500 yards that means every bullet well land with in 3.25 inches of point of aim. Plenty close enough to kill big game animals some times we over stress this accuracy thing. | |||
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Let me throw another variable into this discussion. The determination and tenacity of a particular animal, verses another, to live. For example the kudu that stood there for 5 min after being fatally shot, verses the mule deer or bear mentioned that ran like lightning. Case in point I shot a whitetail buck 2 weeks ago with a 100gr Partition out of 257 Roberts, perfectly through the heart without hitting the shoulder directly. From my vantage point I could see the buck's entire run. He ran with determination like I have never seen in another animal. He went 70 yds total, about 30 yds out then turned and came 30 yds back. He then dropped, got back up and went another 10 yds and collapsed. Even after collapsing he struggled for 1 min to get back up. When he collapsed the first time I shot him again, in his ass, as that was my only shot. Being in South Tx if that buck had the presence of mind to run in a straight line he would have made recovery a real task. The bullet performed perfectly and his heart was jello. The buck was 8 yrs old and never seen before by anyone on the ranch. He clearly had a desire to survive. Perry | |||
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Perry, Your example is a perfect example of the point I was trying to make. What if that animal had run the 70 yards straight and had gone into thick brush and was never found. Would this have become another "damn bullet" never opened up and penciled thru story? Many times in our lives, things are not as they appear to be. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Plus One Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And the original poster obviously recovered those bullets or how would they know that they didn't expand? pics? Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I would figure that Saeed did recover those bullets or had them recovered. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Dear Lord, call me a luddite if you will but please don't ever make me have to live or hunt where conventional bullets can't be used. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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When the animal is dead and recovered did the bullet fail? Monometals are different, the animals react differently. If you heart shoot an animal and it runs 100 yards before piling up did the bullet fail? But if it was a Barnes it "penciled on through and never opened up"??? Saeed's experience just proves the point that there are so many variables that you can't say one bullet works or another doesn't based on a limited sample. You obviously have other bullets that you put your faith in, you can't convince me based on my limited experience (about 30 years and counting) that monometals are inferior. YMMV Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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You're no fun  | |||
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While my wife and I “do not” numerically have the number of kills that some of you folks have, and are using calibers that many say are “too large” for deer/antelope sized game (using mono-bullets).....with properly placed shots, all have been one-shot kills. Our kills range from Red Fox to Shiras Moose, and most things between.... from less than 30 yards to over 400. So, at least for us, we’re not changing anything! memtb You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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So, let me rephrase my original question a bit. Do you feel the 'tip' on monometals has eliminated the occasional non-opening situation with non-tipped monometals? Or perhaps better yet, have any of you experienced a tipped monometal that did not open? We are told by the manufacturers of tipped monometal softs that the tip has eliminated the problem. What say you? True or false? Thanks for your replies and experience! | |||
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There is no short answer. My opinion is if you look at the above information you will likely conclude the number of failures to expand has likely been exaggerated to begin with they may have been 1) clean misses or 2) an animal ran off and was not recovered but was fatally hit or 3) an actual failure to expand. When considering the likelihood of 3, consider that the animal had to survive what is likely a 1/4 inch + hole punched through its lungs. I doubt there are any hunters who have a big enough sample to say I had X failure to expands with non tipped and Y failure to expands with tipped. Even if they did, what is accuracy of their count given everything you have already read here. The same can be true with your second question. How certain will anybody be with respect to an actual failure to expand. I think you are simply going need to decide for yourself because the information is going to be suspect. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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