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what if there had only been 15 yards of open pasture and no dog? and the animal lost in thick brush? would this have been a failure to expand? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgMjqguHnW4 or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4gZnNGHG1o Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Hi Mike, Thanks for all of your responses, especially the last one with the video. Really eye-opening! Makes me think what I really need is my good old Winchester Ballistic Sivertips in 375H&H! I understand your point of view. Many hunters may feel the bullet failed them, when in actuality, it did not, as the video shows. Great proof of your point. What I was trying to get to on my last post, was not a blame of failure on an animal, but rather, the bullet itself. That's why I asked if anyone has witnessed a tipped monometal that did not open on an animal. Not, if it failed to 'take' the animal. The video shows how that could have easily been judged a 'failure' if the animal had not been recovered. No, I am not looking for a hunt deemed a failure, but rather, I am asking if someone has actually recovered a tipped monometal from an animal that did not expand. This is kind of like a proof in Geometry. To prove it false, all we need is one counterexample. So, if anyone has witnessed a true failure of a tipped monometal to expand in a game animal, please post it here. If no one comes forward, we cannot necessarily make a conclusion, but we CAN conclude that there are no counterexamples.....Yet. Thanks again Mike for the great video!  | |||
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If a person recovers a tipped monometal bullet that did not expand from an animal, how can that be bullet failure because bullets cannot be recovered from living animals. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Surefire thanks for the clarification and that is a great approach. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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He's not looking for "failure" he's looking for failure to expand Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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But unless the bullet is recovered how will he know that it failed to expand? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And that's the $1-million question  I have seen recovered bullets from moose that have failed to expand, Partition and the older TBBC. What I noticed about these bullets is that all had dents on the ogive near the tip. In some the bullet was slightly bent at that point. Maybe the nose can get pinched by bone? I have no idea. | |||
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 Here is a selection of our Walterhog bullets recovered from one hunt. | |||
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Saeed, I know you have posted it before but how fast are you driving those with your 375/404's? I seem to recall it was about 2600fps? Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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We have two rifles with different barrel lengths. I use the same load in both, and depending on the powder lot number we might get anything between 2600-2800 fps. | |||
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Hi CHC, Thanks for all of your replies as well. Mike understands my query now. I'm looking for an example of 'bullet failure to expand', not failure to take the animal. I also understand your point of view. That is, if one recovers their bullet in a dead animal, the bullet did not fail the 'hunt'. But still, even if the bullet succeeded in killing the animal, it may still have failed to expand, which means it killed as any other 'solid' will kill. The manufacturers of these tipped monometal softs say the tip will GUARENTEE that the soft will open. I am looking for a counterexample to this claim. I guess the only way to disprove this claim, would be for a hunter to have shot an animal perhaps lengthwise (on a BIG animal) and luckily recovered the bullet showing no expansion. I am not trying to discredit any bullet or manufacturer. In fact, I am hoping there are no counterexamples out there. That would make me feel more confident of my choice of the GMX bullet for my Sitatunga hunt. But if there is a counterexample out there that someone can show (a tipped monometal that failed to expand in an animal, with all of the bones, etc. that ballistic gelatin does not contain), we can then conclude that tipped monometal softs are not GUARENTEED to expand, even if the probability is higher than non-tipped monometals. I obviously failed to state my question clearly in my original post, and I apologize for that to everyone. Thanks for all of the replies and knowledge from everyone so far. This forum contains SO much experience, and it's great to be able to tap into that bank. | |||
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Hi Saeed, Thanks for the pictures of the recovered Walterhogs! I've never seen a picture of these bullets before use. Are these tipped monometals? The first bullet has no land marks, so I may assume that is a non-fired bullet, which is not tipped. Correct?!? | |||
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I have never had a problem with any monometal bullets. I use the Barnes TTSX now and really like them. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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The first video the exit looks plenty big. That is just a tough deer. The second one went a ways but still went down within seconds. (15 seconds video time) My little whitetail buck I shot this last year took about as long as the deer in the second video to go down. Shot with a 300 RUM and a 180 E-Tip at about 200 yards. Nice lung shot he only went about 10 yards. It had a quarter sized exit and it looked like the offside lung was sucked out the hole. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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I can see that. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The kudu I related about is about as much proof as you can expect. It wasn't tipped, but in my opinion, I could have easily lost that animal. TSX was my standard bullet until then, and I may continue to shoot them, but when it was time to put up 30K on brown bear, I picked the Swift, even though it wasn't as accurate as my TSX (but it was close). | |||
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Any big game bullet that is designed to expand, regardless of being a Barnes-X or not, can fail to expand. As I mentioned before, I have seen a couple of .33-caliber 250-grain Partition, and .30-caliber (.300WM) TBBC-recovered from moose-that failed to expand. I could be wrong, but in my view if there is not sufficient resistance to the tip of the bullet when it hits the animal, or if for some reason the bullet's axis changes and the resistance is not felt on the nose, it can fail to expand. The same can happen if the bullet's velocity is drastically reduced to the point where it cannot longer expand. But again, these are my opinions. | |||
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I have shot the TSX's into pails of water and got perfect expansion. I don't know how water compares, resistance wise, to a deer broadside but the expansion was perfect, exactly as shown in the advertisements. | |||
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Jugs of water will expand bullets just fine, just like ballistic gelatin. But in live animals it's hard to tell what the bullet will do every time. Bullet manufacturers usually indicate their bullet expansion range versus velocity. I have shot several moose with the Barnes X, but have never recovered any. The only two 33-caliber bullets I have recovered have expanded as advertised, but each broke moose's shoulder bones. One of these was a 230-grain FS from a Winchester load (the Lubalox-coated one), and 250-grain A-Frame. | |||
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My own experience with monometals is limited. Primarily because I have never been able to get them to shoot as well as I can traditional lead core bullets. But I have shot a few deer with the Barnes TSX and the Federal Copper. While I won’t say they failed because I did recover the animals, they just penciled through and left exit wounds no bigger than the entrance wounds. I don’t ever see that with the Speer Hot Cores or Nosler Accubonds. I am of the opinion that mono metal bullets are just tougher than needed for anything but the big nasties. Now my buddy had a failure with a Barnes TTSX from his 6.5 CM on a mule deer hunt this year. The bullet blew up on the deer’s shoulder. He said it left a funky crater like wound under the skin and just powdered. Luckily, he was able to get a second shot in the deer and that bullet worked like it was supposed to. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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The manufacturers of these tipped monometal softs say the tip will GUARENTEE that the soft will open. The above is just pure advertising bullshit. No bullet will perform as advertised 100% of the times. Our bullets have no tips. We modify them for further penetration, or less penetration, by increasing the diameter of the hollow point, and the depth of the hole. We have had them penetrate a buffalo from the tail to the neck, several times. We have modified them for lesser penetration, and then got them to penetrate from the tail to the liver or the chest cavity, depending on what they hit on the way. Adding a tip is good for advertising, but I guarantee you it has no effect in the field. | |||
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  This is an exit of our Walterhog bullet on a lion. You can see a fragment making its own wound chanel. And some so called "experts"keep telling us that one should not use these bullets on lion or leopard, but much softer bullets. In fact, some nutcase at A-Square designed special bullets for lions, calling them LION LOADS! I would never use those. I will take penetration over expansion any day. | |||
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Thanks for the photos and comments Saeed. Wow, that Walterhog blew a nice sized hole through that Lion!  | |||
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Saeed, Well said! If memory serves me correctly, prior to the significant improvements in expanding bullets....solids were the “go to” bullet for large, dangerous African game. Seems that they also worked well in America, for the Buffalo (Bison)! memtb You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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Saeed, I know many people that would call your pictures failures. I have seen the same with Nosler partitions that blew the nose off or performed a perfect mushroom but the lead went south...In each case they recovered the bullet which means the animal died???. Failures are declared if the entrance and exit hole are both caliber size, but the animall had to die to know the exit hole was caliber size?? As far as Im concerned the only legitimate failure is an animal that's found a day later for instance or one that ran a mile or so with a solid hit, and that's rare indeed and most of those are not recovered as the animal crawls in a hole of sorts and covers himself up it seems!  ..What Im saying is most bullet failures these days amount to bad shooting, an attempt to cover up bad shooting, and imagination gone wild, I culled whitetail this year with the 200 gr. Accubond in my 30-06 and entrance hole and exit hole were 30 caliber in size, all but one deer died on the spot, and one that ran 20 yards in a wild dash, lungs and heart were soup in all, meat damage was minor, suraly they were all bullet failures as anyone would know with a heavy bullet like that on 60 lb. doe, but no the results were perfect.  An interesting test, and somewhat unexpected but Ive always said bullet placement is first and foremost..Ive killed a lot of plainsgame with solids for that matter by breaking the shoulder or using a big bore an small animals. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Here's the photo of the petals off of a 235 grain CEB Raptor ER bullet from my 375 H&H. The bullet was travelling at 3,100 fps when it left the muzzle and hit a bushbuck right on the shoulder at 230 yards. These petals were dug out of a six inch wide surface wound and the core of the bullet did not make it through to the vitals. Splinters of the shoulder bone holed the left lung, though.  Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I’ve had two failures to penetrate with this bullet on mule deer. | |||
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I wonder if some of those failures are from pushing the bullet too fast? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Sometimes what is actually attributed to bullet failure, and the animal never recovered, is really due either a miss or a very marginal hit. | |||
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Saeed, Please say it's not true...You mean all of those guys who said "I made a perfect shot and that damn Barnes TSX didn't expand" might be wrong? and the simplest explanation of a miss a poor hit is the most unlikely explanation...will wonders never cease  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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How DARE you question anyone's ability to be able to accurately put EVERY shot exactly where it needs to go, EVERY TIME!!!!!!! Have You NO Shame????????? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Not at all. I am only reflecting on my own shortcomings. I hardly EVER hit an animal EXACTLY where I aim! Under field conditions, one does not have the luxury of a bench rest shot. I have hunted for years with a professional hunter who was never satisfied with my shooting. My shots were either too high, too low, too far back, too far forward. The animal is stone dead made no difference! A classic example was an impala over 400 yards away on the side of a mountain. He was facing straight away from us, but the shot looked easy enough so I shot him. He dropped at the shot. Bullet hit him in the rear legs, and went out at the neck shoulder junction. AS we got to him, Roy said "as usual, your shot is too far back!" | |||
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In theory is it possible (likely)for a long mono metal bullet to destabilize and flip in the animal transversing base first. One would end up with the dramatic wounding of the initial tumble. The displacement and cutting diameter of a flat nosed bullet (especially in 375 and up caliber bullets) provided penetration path is maintained to and through the vitals. Do not really shot expanding monos. Have a good amount of Barnes TSX for my 500. Just, a question out of curiosity. | |||
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I shot a lioness trotting away at an angle with a 300 grain Barnes X. The bullets tumbled, and was found facing backwards in the shoulder joint of the opposite shoulder. Did not seem to have caused the death of it any quicker than others I have shot. Just tumbled and couple of times and died. I think extreme damage thought of being caused by bullet tumbling is vastly exaggerated. I have seen incredible damage done by a bullet just going through, and on another animal, in a similar position, all one gets is a straight hole. | |||
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I could see a bullet tumbling but staying in an straight path. In my mind I am picturing a tight end over end rotation, so that the bullet path is straight. Or flipping once and continuing to transverse base forward in a straight path. Again, penetration may be limited because force, energy, velocity, or whatever is being used up when the bullet flips that otherwise would be driven the bullet. However, one that just flips once traveling like a flat noise solid may penetrate more than a bullet that stays stable and traditional expands. The now flat point solid creating the wound channel. In small calibers say 30 on down that now flat point solid is not a very big disrupter of tiuse as compared to an expand 30 Cal bullet. The American military believes heavily in tumbling bullets producing wounding. To my limited mind it makes sense. When the projectile flips it surface diameter in soft tissue expands. Therefore, more tissue is violently destroyed. Just some thoughts you guys brought up in my head. | |||
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There was a guy and I think his name was Stan who posted pictures a few years ago on this forum of the original Barnes TSX failing to expand. He was quite adamant about the failures and posted a few pictures. I personally have never learned of the Barnes TTSX failing. | |||
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Frank, I'm curious if you were using the black polymer tip, or without? Thanks, Graybird Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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That was with the black polymer tip installed. I count it as a bullet failure of a "monometal bullet with a plastic/synthetic tip". Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Frank, While not the performance anybody wants, I think surefire7 was looking for failures to expand. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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