Given the other topic here on barrel life, I have also been thinking about the ideal MV for a hunting rifle in most situations that the average hunter will encounter.... this is just for academic discussion..not intended to criticize our magnum loving forum members here..

Most game is taken within a 100 yds..and definitely that figure increases if we consider the amount of game that is taken within 200 yards...

2400 fps handles that distance and a little further easily..

heavy for caliber bullets are known for penetration at these kind of velocities... look at the MVs of rounds like the 458 Win Mag, or the 416 Rigby etc...

even lighter and more fragile smaller bullets in varmint and smaller calibers hold together better at these lower velocities...

taking 3/8 inch steel plate, and 223 bullets and doing a little testing...

at regular 223 velocities the bullets bounced off of the steel plate ( 3100 to 3300 fps MV)

throttling the MV down to 2400 to 2500 fps with the same style bullets, they were drilling right thru the steel plate time after time...

I noticed this also in using trees as a back stop when chronographing out in the local Oregon woods, even fragile varmint weight bullets were drilling thru some pretty thick tree trunks, when their MV's were down to speeds more common to a 300 Savage or a 30.30....

Look at the reputation of rounds like the 300 Savage and the old 30/40 Krag, or the 6.5 x 55 for their lethal potential, all the while giving slow MVs by today's 'desired' standards..

MV's like this don't require the expense of those premium super bullets that always all the rage either...

and as far as how much 'flat shooting' do you need for these kind of distances? Look at a trajectory chart... at slower velocities like this, you will notice that there is not much difference in the trajectory of a round nose or spitzer style bullet at these speeds..

a trajectory chart will also show you that about any spitzer bullet with an MV of about 2250 fps, If zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, it will be dead on at 200 yds... and be about 3.5 inches low at 230 to 240 yds...

plugging this trajectory into the size of deer anatomy, regardless of size of species...deer are 14 to 16 inches or so from backbone to breast bone...

taking the smaller size of 14 inches for a target ( top to bottom) and cutting that in half, we have a target zone of 7 inches...

so as long as a hunter can hold his cross hairs on hide, he has a 7 inch window of opportunity ( conservatively)... with a zero 3.5 inches high, and a trajectory that stays within that 7 inch "window of opportunity" out to 240 yds or so... that MV of about 2250 fps is really all we need to get the job done...

I have never been a believer of velocity being the end-all definitive reason for 'killing power'....I rely instead on the concept of shot placement and a bullet that is adequate for the job at the MV that it is launched at...

2400 fps substantially reduces the recoil of most hunting rifles...helping make better shot placement, especially among younger shooters...

testing bullet performance in a variety of media, I also find that the lower impact velocities result in deeper penetration, often substantially better penetration and bullet performance...

it is also a lot easier on barrel life...


This post was not intended to stir anger in the magnum crowds or those that feel they need all that velocity and premium bullets etc....we all have our own concepts of what is ideal in the field...

however I put this forth as an academic discussion and some food for thought...

how well some of the "Managed Recoil" sells in my local stores, evidently there are enough hunters that don't need the full power that many rounds offer.... yet they would still rather purchase a Managed Recoil load for their 06, then admit that maybe a 243 would just work just as well...

as for myself, I am amazed the decrease in recoil on my Model 70 in 06, when loaded with a 180 RN at 2400 fps, compared with the old standby 180 grain Spitzer at 2700 fps....

for the 250 yds I will be taking a deer within, the lower 300 fps MV isn't handicapping me at all....but the substantial decrease in recoil isn't upsetting at all.... In fact it enables Seafire JR to impress all of his buddies that he can shoot an 06 while they are still trying to handle 270s and 243s...

I've always liked the idea of a terminal velocity around 2300-2600 fps with a bullet weight in the mid to upper weights for the caliber. Make my cartridge/barrel length choice with that goal in mind.

To answer your question. I will have to say no. I do not believe that 2400fps is ideal.

We have many factors to take into consideration. From MV, bullet diameter & construction, powder volume, recoil, muzzle blast, rifle configuration, and frugality. To say 2400fps is ideal is too much of a generalization and an over simplification.

In some situations it will be ideal, and others it will not.

There are many combinations of the above factors that will work. Every individual has to decide for themselves what they prefer and be ready to accept responsibility and be willing to change their chosen set-up if it doesn't work.

My loads have varied from:
-2200 to 3850fps
-cup and core to monometals.
-diameters from 0.224 to 0.416.
-powders volumes from 25gr to 105gr.
-bullet weights from 53gr-400gr.
-single shots to semi automatics and everything in between
-recoil from non existant to brutal
-muzzle blast from nothing to shocking
-load from cheap to expensive

It's my choice, and the few failures I have experienced can be blamed on one thing, and that is me. The nut pulling the trigger.

There are so many variables and choices that to try apply a one size fits all, is at best an excercise in mental gymnastics.

Since 100 yards is a long shot for my method of hunting, I tend to agree with you. Whenever I take my '06 out, it is loaded with 42 grains IMR-3031 and a 170 grain flat point bullet intended for the .30-30. This load is about 2350 fps, produces very little recoil, and is just fine for our little whitetails. If I ever hunt longer range or heavier game again, a simple switch to my 4350/180 grain load puts me right back on zero at 200 yards.
My most often used 7x57 loads run from a low of 2440 fps to a high of 2600 fps and work exceptionally well.

Seafire: If you slow them down will those folks that bitch about all the lead fragments leave us alone? You might be on to something.Good Luck

I could buy into the 2300 to 2600 fps philosophy real easy but 4000 is just fun. Prarie Dog air time is unbelievable.

One thing I can never buy into is the idea of needing premium bullets for killing anything. Made too many good clean kills long before the premium bullets and the manufactuers montra for needing them came along. Simply throwing good money up a wild hogs behind.

I like 4k+ from my 22-250 two but varmints are different targets.

Also chuckle at the current fasination with expensive "premium" hunting bullets. IMHO, they are ONLY helpful when pushing the limits of a cartridge. I perfer to use a larger bore, not a higher priced bullet to compensate for marginal performance from a too small caliber.

Amen to Seafire's post

SD Hunter,

hunting South Dakota, you have a valid point where you live, with plenty of wide open spaces..

many other locals aren't offering some of the shots that can happen out in the plains states..

I know from the past that you are a knowledgable and experienced guy, so what you say is backed up from field experience...not one of our forum arm chair ballisticians..

and for the rest of the guys, I have to admit not practicing what I am preaching when it comes down to prairie dogs and sage rats...

bang/flops don't cut it for the fun factor.... take out the red mist factor and what fun do you have left...

I always set up with 3 rifles on my truck when varmint shooting PDs and Sage Rats...

I swap back and forth between two of them every 15 shots, with mild loads for those within 200 yds, which is usually 80 % of them...

but for that 20% further out there, the third rifle is a 223 loaded with a 40 grainer at 4000 fps ( so we handloaders don't always practice prudence)....or a 22.250 running them at about 4400 fps...

and now since I am playing hooky from my self employed job today, I am off to the range with a fast twist 22.250 to test out some long range loads with 73 grain Bergers, 75 grain and 80 grain A Maxes...

oh and to make sure I have a good zero on a 7 x 57 in a Model 70 featherweight, with a 154 grain RN traveling at 2400 fps for deer season...

I do not think MUZZLE velocity matters AT ALL.

What matters is IMPACT velocity.

You need enough IMPACT velocity to ensure good bullet expansion and penetration for Softs [bullet construction is important as well] and for penetration of Solids.

Elmer Keith stated that for woods hunting anything above 2400fps was a bad thing.

What I look at when chosing a cartridge for a particular trip, is the performance of the bullet when it is most likely to impact the animal[s] being hunted.

I know the crew I used to hunt deer in Maine with hotrodded their 270s, 280s and 7mms with results one might expect. To add to Seafire's original post, Gregor Woods, in his informative book, Rifles for Africa cites a lengthy test conducted by a hunter where, at bushveld distances (what most of us shoot at presumably?) optimium penetration and bullet results (Barnes bullets) was found at MV 2450 fps. At that speed they found the bullet petals peeled back to approx 90 degrees from the shank which enabled to bullet to buzz saw through most tissue.

Seafire -

An excellent thread!! Mainly I give it, and your concept, and reasoning a
in that order.


Even on the prairies, I found it always worked for me. I lived several years on the southern Saskatchewan plains, and hunted big game on both grain farms and in sand hills there. A grain farm there is likely as not at least 10 to 20 square miles in size, flat as a board, and so are those of its' neighbors. Because I enjoy the hunting as much or more than the kill, I didn't mind not whacking every big game trophy I saw beyond 300 yards. I just figured out a way to get closer if I could, and to look for the next animal if I couldn't.

The only deviation I have from your "standard" is that I usually load to a mild version of whatever the factory norm is for the cartridge and bullet-weight I'm using. With the '06 and 200 grain bullets, for instance, I load to 2,450-2,500 fps. But with the .220 Swift I load 50 gr. bullets to somewhere just over 4,000 fps for crows.

Still, the cartridges I use most are short, rimless, 6.5 mm through 9.5 mm, with heavy for diameter bullets, and velocities from 2,050 fps to at the most about 2,700 fps.

A comment on your penetration tests...I bought a 7x33 Sako L-42 in 1978 or '79. Got a case of factory 77 gr. RN FMJ bulleted cartridges, the only thing available direct fom Sako at the time. Practicing my offhand at 100 yards with that almost pistol-like round, I shot at 3 of the 1/4" steel smallbore silhouette rams. They fell over and I felt pretty good until I went down to re-set them. Each had a hole cut so clean it looked like it had been bored with a 3'8 drill, all the way through. I had to have them re-welded closed and re-painted, and darned near got kicked out of the club for having shot at them at all with that rifle.

Cheers

John,I think a lot of what you say here has real value and I've done it with usually heavy for caliber bullets but none below 25 caliber on deer. I still have a hard time seeing any relativity between a light weight slow moving 22 caliber bullet penetrating a 4" diameter limb and being an adequate deer killer. roger

Seafire,
You do make a valid point. But it just won't cover all the hunting situations I have encountered. It would cover a bunch of them though.

My nephews used a loaded down 270 with Hornady 140gr BTSP @ 2450fps to kill exactly four deer. We recovered two of those bullets and they were perfect mushrooms. Haqd they been going 2800fps, I don't think they would have been recovered. All shots were less than 100 yards, trying to teach them the hunting aspect.

Four deer is nothing more than anecdotal evidence as far as I am concerned but it worked.

Interesting thread. Thanks sf.

I started a thread a while back about bullets at 2,500 mv fps, and how they were tested in the 60's and found to buck brush better than either slower/heavier and lighter/faster bullets. I wasn't aware of the better penetration.

It sounds like the penetration and recoil factors more than compensate for the rounder trajectory. I can imagine the difficulty in assessing bullet drop at 400 yards, but then in most circumstances it won't be much more difficult than assessing exact range at that distance. We all know that being out by 25 yards in range makes mish-mash of bullet drop values and throws you right back into a crap shoot.

Here's an example of where 2400fps doesn't work.

Last fall my 10yo old son had a very successful hunting season shooting a 22-250 with 53gr Barnes TSX bullets at 3850fps. Please do let this thread turn into a 22 caliber for deer thread.

He wanted to step up to a 270 this year. I bought a used 270 for him. I loaded up some reduced loads with Hornady 100gr and 130gr bullets. I used the Hodgdon website for creating those loads with H4895. Both loads shoot sub MOA at 100 yards.

Disclaimer: sorry Seafire, no blue dot for me.

We went to the range and he shot the reduced 100gr loads. After about six shots and bullets sprayed all over the 8.5x11 target paper. He wanted to go back to the 22-250. His groups immediately tightened up again. He wants to use the 22-250 again this year.

IMO, bullet placement trumps most other ballistic minutia discussion. It certainly trumps everything in the field.

I probably could have got him a 243/6mm, 257 Roberts, 260 Rem etc. But that is where the frugality set in. Why do that? Then purchase all the reloading supplies and accessories for another caliber. He has the 270 waiting for him, and a 22-250 that he shoots extremely well.
I am perfectly happy letting him use it to his heart's content. Maybe next year he will be ready for the 270, but I am certainly not going to push him.

Here is where the personal bias comes in.
I have settled on 22-250, 270 win, 338-06 and 9.3x64 Brenneke, and 44 magnum for all my reloading. I have played the 100 different rifles/caliber game, and I am through with it. I have found I would much rather spend my time and resources on fewer, but higher quality guns. Get very comfortable with them, shoot, and enjoy them.

Here's an example of where I think 2400 is perfect. If/when I ever get to Africa for Cape Buffalo. I plan on using my 9.3x64 Brenneke. It will be with a 286-320gr bullet in that 2300-2500 range. It will all depend on what the PH suggests, and which load I am most comfortable with. But that is down the road, and what dreams are made of.

I owned a 416 Rigby, and to be honest, I did not enjoy it. The recoil level was beyond my tolerance. So that makes anything bigger out of the question. I could have gotten by with a 375 H&H, but became enamored with the Brenneke. So far, I really enjoy shooting it.
I am looking forward to maybe punching a hole through a deer with it this year. The factory loads are pushing a 293gr bullet at 2550fps. Overkill for deer, but it's my tag and hunting season, therefore my choice.

I may even use the 22-250 again to make sure the combination still works.

There truly is a wide range of rifle/cartridge/bullet/velocity combinations that will work. Everyone has to pick what they prefer, and be prepared to accept responsibilty if it doesn't work, and be willing to change and learn. I know I have gained tremendous insight into the hunting/shooting world by reading, posting and discussing ideas on this forum.

Seafire,
Good post and I, like many others agree. Personally I strive for 2750fps from an -06. Unless I know I will be taking really long shots, the RUM stays in the safe. That extra velocity blows the hell out of things and ruins a lot of meat.

Seafire, I agree with your thought process but:

1. It is not always possible, the shot groups from my 257 AI open up significantly when I load for slower MV; I’ve been working on a predator load and with light weight bullet (90 grn), the groups really open up at lower MVs
2. How do you reconcile lower MV (which means less powder) against loading for max density, isn’t max or even compressed loads a good thing?

I'm not Seaforth, but in his defense, I don't think he was lobbying to get a law passed that everyone MUST use bullets only at 2,400 f.p.s.

I think he wqs trying to express an opinion that as a general rule, 2,400 f.p.s. velocity is adequate for almost all hunting, given the right bullet diameters and weights to start with. Personally I have found that to be true for my hunting, and I've done a more than average fair amount of it.

As to frugality, all of us have different needs/desires/definitions for frugality. I own over 100 rifles because I can...and I like having them because I enjoy the workmanship in the fine ones, and I enjoy the practicality of a lot of the less expensive ones for their intended uses. I even enjoy the not too practical ones or odd-ball concept, in tangible rifle form. Bottom line, I just plain like rifles.

I will assure anyone, the rifles I now have and the components and equipment I have squireled away over the years to feed them all, I could sell at any time today for considerably more than I paid for them. That's frugal enough for MY needs! As to quality, the rifles I've owned run the gamut from Dan'l Frasers, Holland & Holland's, Rigby's, Jefferies, W.R.s, Greener's, Simsons, Springers, and on and on through Paramounts, Musgraves, Anschutz, Commercial Mauser sporters, M/S sporters, and down to even Savage Model 1920s, Winchester M54s & 70s, Remington 700s and 40-Xs, Marlin 1893s, Swiss International Match Martinis, and Mossberg .22s.

That doesn't even well begin to list them all.

It is not a question of being spoiled and rich...I was never either. It is a product of knowing what you love, and living long enough to be up to your neck in it for 60+ years out of all the years you've been around, and not spending ALL your money on booze, expensive vacations, big houses, new cars, all that sort of thing. As they say, pay yer money and pick yer "pizen". I mean, what the Hell, it IS only money and no one lives forever anyway. and one sure can't take either rifles or money with them when the Great Architect assigns them to another job in another reality.

Anywho, I think Seafire has made a good point. Sure, there is no perfect single rule to hunting, shooting, and rifle selection. But, that goes as much for the huge multi-buck whiz-bangers just as much as for the poor, downtrodden, cheap, obsolete, 30-30.

Almost every thing can be done in NA with the right bullet at 2,400 f.p.s., even if it doesn't have to be.

So, to me it's an interesting thread.

Albert, if you look at Seafire's original post, it is a question, not a statement, we are just providing feedback

That is why the 30-30 and 300 Savage kilt so many deer. Where I currently hunt the shots are from so close I could throw a baseball and hit it," I can't throw very far" to 350 yds, and by the way the wind can blow hard in Nebraska. I prefer the 7 mag for myself. If I was in a place where the shots were 100 yds or less I would put a 180 cup and core in my .308 and not worry too much about speed, or pull out the .45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
Albert, if you look at Seafire's original post, it is a question, not a statement, we are just providing feedback

Abob - Well, actually the way I read it, it wasn't as much a question, as a proposition put out for debate.

Anyhow, I wasn't trying to chastise anyone, and I've pretty much enjoyed the responses so far.

I just got the vague feeling the thread might be starting to get off in a bit different direction, so I wanted to make sure it didn't go down the wrong road. That we stuck to Seafire's proposition rather than veering into a debate over how many rifles, or their quality, a person should be owning/using.

I found your own posting a good question. It is a good example of what I tried none to well to express in my own earlier post when I talked about loading to the low end of recommended loads for the cartridge & bullet used...

Sure, you COULD use a slower, bulkier, powder to get less velocity than with your standard AI loads. But, why should you? The standard loads for your cartridge work just fine, don't they?

The "why", I'm guessing, might end up being that you could use cheaper bullets, get maybe better penetration, and still have a plenty useful trajectory together with good killing effects.

But again, if it ain't broke, as in your case it likely isn't, why fix it?

That's the interesting part of his thread to me. Does 2,400 f.p.s. really serve the needs of most hunters, and why or why not load to that bullet speed?

Best wishes, anyway.

Sorry if I sounded as if I was coming down on anyone. That was not my intent, and is not my role in participating in Seafire's thread.

2400 fps is a very useful MV I have killed dozens of critter with rifles right around there.

Is if for every rifle and hunting situation no but it covers lots of them.

9,3x62? Must be horrible
35 Whelen? Junk

The 375-06 might be the best overlooked cart.
300 @ 2400

Albert, no offense taken, just pointed it out because I have made that mistake -- entering a thread without reading the original post

I really enjoy Seafire’s posts and have PM’d him about Blue Dot loads; you see my pet project is building a predator load for fox, coyote & wolf; I want a load that goes in & out without tearing up the hide; BTs, HPs, C&C bullets tend to leave a big exit hole that requires a lot of sewing

Barnes makes a..257 90 grn solid that works but still causes damage at high velocities if it hits bone (I use Sierra 90 grn HP to develop the load) so I tried going with the minimum loads from several manuals – no joy

I would to get down to 2600 fps, problem is at slower MV, my groups really opened up

My question was a poorly worded attempt to ask: since slower loads require less powder, does this cause/contribute to the poor groups; everything I have read says powder performs better when it fills the case

Anyway, I think I’m going to have to go with bigger bullets (117-120) at slower velocities or learn to sow better

P.S. I have some Blue Dot loads from Seafire but have not been able to get any Blue Dot or SR 4759 yet (we are at the end of the supply line up here)

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
9,3x62? Must be horrible
35 Whelen? Junk

The 375-06 might be the best overlooked cart.
300 @ 2400

Great thread and good thinking boom.

quote:

I just got the vague feeling the thread might be starting to get off in a bit different direction, so I wanted to make sure it didn't go down the wrong road. That we stuck to Seafire's proposition rather than veering into a debate over how many rifles, or their quality, a person should be owning/using.

Alberta Canuck,
It was not my intention to sway the discussion off course. I prefaced that whole paragraph with "IMO". I did wander a bit.

The 100 rifles/calibers comment was directed at my choice of not buying another rifle to fit between the 22 and 270's for my son. Because the 2400fps did not work for my son and his 270 due to recoil.

quote:

Please do let this thread turn into a 22 caliber for deer thread.

Meant to post Please do NOT let this turn into a 22 caliber for deer thread.

The premise is interesting, but doesn't 2400 fps makes the most sense when applied to conventional cup and core roundnose softs or solids with a sectional density of more than .300? Then we're talking about the classics...

quote:

P.S. I have some Blue Dot loads from Seafire but have not been able to get any Blue Dot or SR 4759 yet (we are at the end of the supply line up here)

If groups are inaccurate with the 90 grainers in the 257 Roberts, I'd recommend SR 4759 of course...

however if you can't get ahold of it...

if you can get ahold of either of the 4198s or RL 7, try working with 25 to 30 grains of any one of those powders..large rifle primer of course...

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

I just got the vague feeling the thread might be starting to get off in a bit different direction, so I wanted to make sure it didn't go down the wrong road. That we stuck to Seafire's proposition rather than veering into a debate over how many rifles, or their quality, a person should be owning/using.

Alberta Canuck,
It was not my intention to sway the discussion off course. I prefaced that whole paragraph with "IMO". I did wander a bit.

The 100 rifles/calibers comment was directed at my choice of not buying another rifle to fit between the 22 and 270's for my son. Because the 2400fps did not work for my son and his 270 due to recoil.

quote:

Please do let this thread turn into a 22 caliber for deer thread.

Meant to post Please do NOT let this turn into a 22 caliber for deer thread.

No sweat, S.D. Hunter. I thought your examples of when 2,400 might/might not be a good compromise were very well put, quite understandable, and added quite a bit to the conversation.

Mine was, pardon the expression, a "pre-emptive" strike, not a "corrective" one of you or anyone else. I'll leave any correction of any participant to the thread owner, Senor Seafire.

Best wishes, AC

Me personally:

I like 2650 +/- and a sectional around .26

You look at all the "kills better than it should" cartridges and they are very close to those specs

6.5x55 w/140s
270 win with 150s
7x57 with with 154s
30-06 with 180s
8x57 with 200s
338-06 with 210s
358 Win w225s

Not all of them are "right there" with the specs some faster some slower but they are all probably within 5% of the 2650 fps and .26 SD

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Me personally:

I like 2650 +/- and a sectional around .26

You look at all the "kills better than it should" cartridges and they are very close to those specs.............

270 win with 250s

That's an interesting point you make, Mike, and hard to argue with.

I know you don't spell check, but you might want to go back and edit this one part of your list just for drill

Best wishes,

AC.

thank god others realize the principle.
i have been urging many hunters/reloaders.
to use a quality c&c bullet at a nominal velocity.
but up to 2800 fps seems reasonable and is a lot easier to talk people into.
after my wife shot lengthwise through two deer with two independent witnesses [i was not there]
i had many,many people ask what bullet i use.
when i said the hornady interlock i got many looks of dis belief.
once i was able to explain the velocity and how it worked with the bullets design i think i upped the sales of i-locks by about 50% in our area.
as i couldn't get another box of the ones i use for a few weeks locally.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Me personally:

I like 2650 +/- and a sectional around .26

You look at all the "kills better than it should" cartridges and they are very close to those specs

6.5x55 w/140s
270 win with 250s
7x57 with with 154s
30-06 with 180s
8x57 with 200s
338-06 with 210s

Mike I like your list, even the 250gr. 270.
Your preferential velocity is noted and respected. The 2300 fps. has been used here for a number of what bullets you suggest with, perhaps, adequate results. One questioable performance was a one shot kill with a 140gr. cup and core 6.5 Speer out of a Carcano.The shot was less than 15 yards. The bullet entered in the upper left side of the chest, angled down through the chest cavity, clipped a rib and lodged just under the hide on the other side. There was no mushrooming, just slight deformation on one side near the tip with some exposed additional lead. This I believe was before the Hot Cores. The shoot knocked this 300 pound buck right on his ass. Braceing himself with his front legs only just looking at me for maybe 5 seconds. He than just slowly toppled over.
I often thought that had that deer been at 100 yds. the result might not have been too good.
Got a chance a couple years latter to test that concern. using the Carcano with a 160gr. bullet shot a doe broad side at just about 100 yds. Didn't even appear to be hit. Took two slow steps and fell and roled down the hill. The bullet penciled through her just nicking the top of the heart. There was hardly any noticeable tissue damage so I realy don't think I put this concern to bed. Your liking of additional velocity may have some significant meaning. interesting thread. Made me take a trip into the past and perhaps had me readjust some thinking. roger

Seafire: A lovely post indeed. I have a great fondness for the older cartridges that push high-S.D. bullets at moderate velocity. These start with the .25-35 117-grain RN at 2400 and include the 6.5 Mannlicher, 6.5 Swede, 7X57, .30-40 Krag, .303 British and 8X57. I'd love to try on eof the 9,3X57 Husqvarnas that the guys are talking up.

My grand father hunted his whole life with 30-06 with 220gr remingtons and killed more anials than most ever will with out much hoopla.Very good thread .

Seafire,

"Premium" bullets which withstand high impact velocities have been available in the US since about 1948 w John Nosler's partition bullets.

My 87 year old father has killed over 50 large elk using Noslers in 270 winchester 130 grain at 3,000 fps and 300 weatherby using 180 grain at 3,200 fps.

I have seen many of these killed while hunting with him, and also those shot w conventional bullets in 243, 25-06, 257 Weatherby, 7mm, 300 savage, .308, 30-06, .300 win/weatherby, .338, .35 whelan, 375 h and h, 50 and 54 muzzle loaders. Ive killed 22 elk w a variety of calibers.

Velocity does matter.

The more the better!

Andy

bullet placement matters.Velocity is just a delivery system.

For my small contribution I would note that an impact velocity of 2400 fps with normal cup and core bullets seems about perfect.

This is a Muntjac deer that weighed all of 10kg dressed shot with a 150gr speer boat tail soft point from an 30.06 at between around 170 yards, giving an impact velocity of around 2400

This is the exit wound:


To give you an idea of scale the wound measures 2 1/2"

Here is the damage to the heart and lungs:



The same load does everything from foxes to red deer.

MV and IV (impact velocity) are not set in stone, there is no across the board magic number. The bullet construction tells us what the IV should be. Otherwise, one would need to carry a range finder, and ammunition loaded in 100fps increments starting at 2400fps MV. I can see it now, telling your guide to hold the thought while you rummage thru your pocket full of loads, with MV written on each one with a Sharpie.

Rich
DRSS