Seafire, I liked your thread so much I just order some 117 gn RN for my 257 Rob AI and 154 rn RN for my son's 7mm-08, plan to use them on whitetails in MN this Nov, hunting from stands in pretty deep woods

Starting loads will be 2400 fps of course

I think it's very-very ironic that one of the best deer cartridges, factory loads, that fits into this discussion, has been right under our turned up noses for many years:

Look at the MV shown.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=815438

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=451420

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=514659

This seems to address the difference between the Euro and the North American cartridges. The 6.5 x 57, 7 x 57, 8 x 57, 9 x 57, 9.3 x 74, and 9.3 x 62 are very popular in Germany. MV are lower than the cartridges we use here like 270, 7 Mag, 308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and the WSM varieties. I doubt the average yardage to kill is much different, unless you are talking the plains states or elk. I've always wondered why the 8mm is so unpopular in this country..perfect 2400 ft/sec cartridge, acceptable recoil and out to 170-80 yds, plenty of killing power for all but the big bears here in North America....just doesn't sound as sexy as a 300WSM.

I can't speak to all those Euro cartridges, but I can do a little educated guess, mixed with facts, about the 8x57. I think the main reason for its unpopularity in the US, is because of the popularity of the 30-06, both of which were a product of war or war-making. One won and one lost, and has little to do with the merits of the cartridge.

Also, as I understand it, SAAMI set the standards of pressure in the 8x57 very low, supposedly because of old military rifles turning up over here, and because of the issue of two different grove dia - .318 and .323. But I also think it was because the average guy then had Dyslexia of sorts about anything metric. Some still have the problem today.

The C.I.P. (Euro) pressure specs for the 8x57 reflect the true capability of the cartridge.

Fortunately for us we have the choice of buying ammo or loading to either pressure. The American made cartridges links I showed above are mild loads, but beat a 30-30 always -ballistically, and allows the use of the marvelous Mauser for deer hunting.

Anyway, the main reason for the 8x57 ammo links is to show a practical option for factory ammo other than the 30-30, meeting the 2400 fps criteria of this thread, and allow the use of a bolt action rifle. The 7x57 - 175gr might be applicable too.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
I've always wondered why the 8mm is so unpopular in this country..perfect 2400 ft/sec cartridge, acceptable recoil and out to 170-80 yds, plenty of killing power for all but the big bears here in North America

maybe because the .308 is more popular?
loaded with a 180gr, there can't be much difference.

Steffen, I think you and Kabluewy are both right. There is another factor which weighed against the 8 m/m quite heavily in America, though.

That unfortunately, was plain old parochrialism (sp?). That is, American's didn't like it to some degree simply because it was foreign, and to a much greater degree, because it was German in particular. WWI and WWII, no matter who was right or wrong, left a very sour taste in the mouths of many millions of Americans.

Cities in The U.S.A. were forced to change their names if they originally bore recognized German names (like of couple of them which used to be named "Berlin"), and the whole sport of "Schuetzen" was sort of swept under the rug. Generally, being German or advocating German products was a very tough row to hoe here for a good many years.

A pity what war does to logic, but not surprising. The same kind of thing used to apply during the "cold war" to Russian products, especially those developed during the Bolshevik era(s).

The winners of wars get the advantage of making history read the way THEY like it...sometimes to their own disadvantage. That MAY be the case in the '06 vs.8x57 situation.

I think both cartridges serve their users very well, though depending on the specific environment of the moment, each may have small advantages over the other from time to time.

quote:

I've always wondered why the 8mm is so unpopular in this country..

Because the 358 win and 35 whelen are superior

alberta canuck, that is a very good point.
much the same way that i will never ever buy a .260rem.

personly i'm thinking of getting a .308 to use for all my rifle hunting
110gr hp for occational varmints
123gr fmj for small game
150gr accubond for deers, sheeps etc
180gr for moose, bear, driven hunts etc

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen:
alberta canuck, that is a very good point.
much the same way that i will never ever buy a .260rem.

personly i'm thinking of getting a .308 to use for all my rifle hunting
110gr hp for occational varmints
123gr fmj for small game
150gr accubond for deers, sheeps etc
180gr for moose, bear, driven hunts etc

Steffen, think 7x57.REALLY roger

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

I've always wondered why the 8mm is so unpopular in this country..

Because the 358 win and 35 whelen are superior

he said with tongue firmly clinched in cheek....


Boomie, that is a GAS!! You really do have a perverted sense of humour, and I love it.

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen:
alberta canuck, that is a very good point.
much the same way that i will never ever buy a .260rem.

I would love to own a 6.5x55mm Krag or 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser; or better yet both

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x55_Swedish

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Steffen, think 7x57.REALLY roger

i feel that the 7x57 is a great cartridge with one foot in the grave.
you can't buy a moderatly priced rifle in it, and factory ammo can be hard to get.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Me personally:

I like 2650 +/- and a sectional around .26

You look at all the "kills better than it should" cartridges and they are very close to those specs

6.5x55 w/140s
270 win with 150s
7x57 with with 154s
30-06 with 180s
8x57 with 200s
338-06 with 210s
358 Win w225s

Not all of them are "right there" with the specs some faster some slower but they are all probably within 5% of the 2650 fps and .26 SD

Expand the list and the bounds of velocity - downward - and add:

257 Roberts
250 Savage
375H&H
30-30

plus the mentioned 300 Savage, 25-35, 8x57 and others.

All mid velocity range cartridges.

JPK

I must admit this thread makes me feel much better about only getting 2500/2600fps. out of my 7X57mm with 150 gr. CoreLoks, and I will be the first to admit that ultra-velocity is not necessary to bring down and elk or deer, since I have done it with a muzzleloader myself,and using heavy bullets. However, I have shot a good deal of coyotes with a 22-250 @ 3650/3700 fps. with 55gr. bullets. They fall over as if they were electricuted! I have seen and read of coyotes running off in the brush 30 to 40 yards when shot with 22 cal. at lower velociies (3000-3200fps.). I still believe the more the velocity the greater the killing power as long as the bullets behave. I will do some experimenting with lower velocities and some of the bullets I have had problems with holding together. Interesting subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
Seafire, I liked your thread so much I just order some 117 gn RN for my 257 Rob AI and 154 rn RN for my son's 7mm-08, plan to use them on whitetails in MN this Nov, hunting from stands in pretty deep woods

Starting loads will be 2400 fps of course

well ABob...

I hunted between Hibbing and International Falls for about 10 seasons back there...

good hunting, big deer and a 117 RN in the Roberts and a 154 RN in a 7/08 at 2400 fps should be perfect for up there in between the swamps and thickets...

best of luck to you and your son...

Thanks Seafire, we hunt on some family land in the Deer River area

Hmm. Two of the great "classic" man killing cartridges of the 20th Century 7mm Mauser and the British 303 Mark VII certainly fit that with a velocity of 2,450fps.

But I think that there is another aspect. I'd say that it is a double scale of bullet weight AND velocity. Calibre being pretty much irrelevant.

So I'd say that 140 to 150 grains required 2900fps, 150 to 160 requires 2800fps, 160 to 170 grains requires 2700fps and 180 or thereabounts probably gets the job done with 2600fps.

However I do feel that with that 2400fps you are starting to get a little low and unless a GOOD bullet is used need to keep things at under one hundred to two hundred yards on game.

quote:

need to keep things at under one hundred to two hundred yards on game.

well about 95 % plus, of all game taken in the USA are at 200 yds or under...and actually most of that is taken at under a 100 yds...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

need to keep things at under one hundred to two hundred yards on game.

well about 95 % plus, of all game taken in the USA are at 200 yds or under...and actually most of that is taken at under a 100 yds...

And in most of Canada, too.

I have posted this article before but couldn't resist posting it again, really agree with Phil here

http://www.riflemagazine.com/m...?tocid=1153&magid=82

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

need to keep things at under one hundred to two hundred yards on game.

well about 95 % plus, of all game taken in the USA are at 200 yds or under...and actually most of that is taken at under a 100 yds...

And in most of Canada, too.

Now that is an interesting statistic, and one not hard to believe. It would be interesting to see just how that data was taken. For example : one person killing a hundred deer , 100 guys and gals killing one deer each or the average for 10,000 hunters. 95% + very interesting, but how close to reality is that figure? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

need to keep things at under one hundred to two hundred yards on game.

well about 95 % plus, of all game taken in the USA are at 200 yds or under...and actually most of that is taken at under a 100 yds...

And in most of Canada, too.

Now that is an interesting statistic, and one not hard to believe. It would be interesting to see just how that data was taken. For example : one person killing a hundred deer , 100 guys and gals killing one deer each or the average for 10,000 hunters. 95% + very interesting, but how close to reality is that figure? roger

Well, Roger, as anyone can likely tell, it is an estimate, not the result of a great massive poll.

But, considering that much of the game on this continent is taken where there is cover and food for the animals, and the hunters can do it over a weekend or a part of a weekend, or in an evening, rather than on a guided "safari" it is not unreasonable.

The kinds of game taken the most (various deer, from small Alabama whitetails to Canadian moose) just add to the degree of closeness at which they are shot. Even black bear, grizz, and brown bear are much more often taken within those distances.

If 85% would make you happier, then fine, let's go with 85%. The point is still the same.

Sure there are exceptions, western mule deer MAYBE; bean-field deer, yeh; stuff shot from towers in Wisconsin, perhaps; but the generalization (and that's what it is) still soundly applies.

I think the most useful calibres do 3000-3200 with their main bulley weight. So 270 with 130 grainers, 300 Magnums with 165-180s.

Trajectory seems to be greatly flattened from 2700 to 3100 but not much from 3100 to 3400 or so.

A 270 or 300 Winchester will load back to 2500 f/s with ease if and when that is an advantage.

You know seafire, your theory makes a lot of sense. There have also been several cogent examples on situations which are better to have some more velocity--making for a good thread IMO.

The thing that jumped out at me is how this intel might comfort some folks (including myself occasionally) when the lie detector--the Chronograph--let's them know that their 3200 fps .270 is actually doing 2850. I have learned that I have a bunch....of rifles that shoot 200-400 fps slower than they are 'supposed to' but handloading has led me to maximize these rifles accuracy, which is my main goal in loading anyway--certainly not economy--I doubt that even exists--given the gear I have purchased, though being unemployed currently I may have to justify it a bit to myself

The biggest thing I take away from it all, is shot placement/accuracy first--as other posters mentioned proper bullet for expected impact velocity next!

Good post!

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
Well, Roger, as anyone can likely tell, it is an estimate, not the result of a great massive poll.

Fair enough. I stuck my nose in this one to find out if indeed there were some published stats, which I doubted. Had there been it would have been interesting if "game" also included varmints and perhaps antelope.
Had the statment read" In my opinion the the vast number of big game is taken within 200yds." I would not have even questioned that. When some one starts to closely quantify ,a little voice in me says" Now I wonder where that came from"? The 95% number affects me not at all. The authoritve style in which it was presented creates question of it's validity. Perhaps I'm just being a butt head. roger

I wonder how many shots are taken at > 200 yds & missed? In my opinion, most game is taken at 200yds or less because:

a. most of us are ethical hunters who know our limitations and only shoot when we are confident of a killing hit

b. there are those who don't & miss (my bet is very few of those are members of AR)

There are some great long range shooters out there and they are very capable of making shots > 200yds (I'm not one of them); this post is not aimed at them

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I'm just being a butt head. roger

Now, Roger, my friend I'm gonna have to fly the flag on that one...

You are NEVER a butthead so far as I can see.

And I very much suffer the same kind of pains you do from the pomposity of some posters who make absolute statements. But I don't think Seafire is prone to that sort of absolute-ism, just as you are not.

Actually, back in the early 60s there were a number of surveys posted in magazines such as Sports Afield, Field & Stream, and Outdoor Life where writers attempted to establish the ranges at which game really WAS taken. They got their info mainly, IIRC, at game checking stations.

Of course, as many states don't have immediate post-shooting game-checking requirements, and the writers couldn't be everywhere, the statistics were affected by the type of terrain in the states where the data was gathered.

And, also, in those days they didn't have all of the hype-BS about "good shots" being capable of responsibly taking game at 600 yards and so on. The wind was just as variable as now, the shooters were as unpracticed as now (or more so), and the game unexpectedly moved just as much and just as often.

So most responsible hunters then didn't believe that paying more for the latest "technology" would automatically make them sudden humane killers at anything within jeep driving distance. (That doesn't show my personal biases does it?) So, shooters MAY have shot less at long range than now just because they didn't think they reasonably could. And, reasonably, MAYBE they still shouldn't.

Whatever, best wishes anyhow, and am always glad to see you chime in on anyone's thread.

AC

This obsessive over the top blinded love affair guy have on here for the 06 is giving me a headache. YES we understand you love this cal. you don't have to write it over and over and over ,puke, again. Had one for 20yrs worked fine and then I moved on and you will not believe it there are other cal. out there and there great too.

Roger,

I didn't get in a debate here with the subject of how much game is taken at 200 yds or less..

not a scientific poll of any great magnitude..

it is pretty much indicated by about every source I have read on the subject....

Most people I have ever talked too, also have reflected the same thing in their personal hunting experiences..

I know even out shooting prairie dogs and sage rats, I have asked my fellow shooters what percentage of their kills do they think were within 200 yds...

the usual answer is 85 to 90 %...and that is even on varmints..

if the estimate is off... it isn't off by much...

but for academic's sake, does it really matter for the point of the discussion?

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
Roger,



if the estimate is off... it isn't off by much...

but for academic's sake, does it really matter for the point of the discussion?

Actually ,John, the number really doesn't matter at all. The question is answered with the word estimate. roger

I feel that the ideal velocity is 2,700-2,800fps AKA 30-06 with 180gr bullets or a modern 6.5X55 swede with 140's

Elmer Keith and all of the old time writers expounded heavy bullets and low velocity because those bullets couldnt handle any faster velocities. Once John Nosler started producing the partition all of those old thouhgts could be tossed in the garbage.

Partitons are not really expensive and work extremely well. Also @ 2,7000-2,8000 cup and core bullets work and work pretty well, especially Hornady's which i think are the toughest non premium's out there, YMMV

yet the nitro express cartridges still see plenty of use while chugging along at a sedately 2150 don't they? apparently not all such thought is in the can...

When doing my handloading, I normally stay several grains under the maximum and I'm not a fan of hyper-speeds. I agree with the OP that MV of 2600 and less will do the trick just fine.

But I have found that with my .308 dropping the MV down to less than 2600 opens up the groups pretty substantially. Like going from 1.5" groups to 3"+ groups.

Since sometimes I hunt clear cuts and powerlines where a 200 yard shot is not out of the question, I keep to 2650+ for my 308.

My 8mm Mauser is happy to chug along at 2400fps

A wise person once said that anything you point the 358 win at dies...

The 35 Whelen is the modern 350 Rigby

The 35 Newton is the bees knees.

The 358 Gremlin with 180 hornady bullets fit this bill and can work on a micro action. click on the link in my sig line.

I have a another wildcat idea of a rimless 35-223 1.6" or a rimless 357 maximum on the micro action too. both the above are perfect for the ar15 platform too. Use 357 maximum dies

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

I've always wondered why the 8mm is so unpopular in this country..

Because the 358 win and 35 whelen are superior

he said with tongue firmly clinched in cheek....


Boomie, that is a GAS!! You really do have a perverted sense of humour, and I love it.

quote:

I doubt the average yardage to kill is much different, unless you are talking the plains states or elk.

Whoah! In parts of Europe there were some pretty long shots taken. Scotland for instance, at one time, in deer "forests" with many valleys, hence the hyper velocity 240 Holland and Holland.

And mountain game - mouflon and chamois - hence the various Vom Hofe creations. In both three to four hundred yard shots were not at all uncommon.

Back on topic...

was reading an article out of a March 2007 "Shooting Illistrated" titled "Elmer Keith was Right"

In the article, the 06 case was necked up or down from 6 mm to 375 caliber...6mm, 25 cal, 6.5mm, 270 cal, 7mm, 30 cal, 8mm, 338 Cal, 35 Cal and 375 caliber..

the most commonly used "heavy for caliber" bullets were used..

the 06 with a 180 spitzer was listed with an MV of 2900 fps...which most of us would considered hot..

although not the focus of the article, what I thought was interesting was a chart listing Muzzle energy, and then retained energy out to 300 yds...

also interesting was the drop of the bullet with a 2.5 inch at a 100yds zero...

the 06 with a 2900 fps MV, had ME of 3360 ft lbs... and at 300 yds ME was 2150...trajectory was 7 inches low at 300...

two surprising states to me, were the 338/06 with a 250 grainer having an MV of 2550 fps..

and then a 375/06 Whelen with a 300 grain Spitzer...

the 338/06 had ME of 3610,and retained 2565 of it at 300 yds, with a drop of 9.5 inches...

never using it myself, but it warrants a look see for Elk hunters...the 375/06 Whelen..

MV was 2500... ME was 4165 ft/lbs... at 300 yds retained energy was a whopping 2860 ft/lbs and the trajectory drop was 9.5 inches once again..

ya get those big bullets moving, they don't give up much momentum as they fly away from the muzzle..

with Stats like the 375/06 I am surprised you don't see and hear about a lot more guys carrying those for elk hunting..

even my 338/06 looks pretty lethal, with a 250 grainer and an MV of 2400 or 2500 fps.. for about anything ya might wanna hunt..

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I can't speak to all those Euro cartridges, but I can do a little educated guess, mixed with facts, about the 8x57. I think the main reason for its unpopularity in the US, is because of the popularity of the 30-06, both of which were a product of war or war-making. One won and one lost, and has little to do with the merits of the cartridge.

Also, as I understand it, SAAMI set the standards of pressure in the 8x57 very low, supposedly because of old military rifles turning up over here, and because of the issue of two different grove dia - .318 and .323. But I also think it was because the average guy then had Dyslexia of sorts about anything metric. Some still have the problem today.

The C.I.P. (Euro) pressure specs for the 8x57 reflect the true capability of the cartridge.

Fortunately for us we have the choice of buying ammo or loading to either pressure. The American made cartridges links I showed above are mild loads, but beat a 30-30 always -ballistically, and allows the use of the marvelous Mauser for deer hunting.

Anyway, the main reason for the 8x57 ammo links is to show a practical option for factory ammo other than the 30-30, meeting the 2400 fps criteria of this thread, and allow the use of a bolt action rifle. The 7x57 - 175gr might be applicable too.

KB

Educated guess, that's funny right there. Course all you are is guess. Hope to Christ your Field & Stream subscription never runs out.

I have been talking up the 375-06 for a bit now...
300 @ 2400 fps
longer 2.65" up to 2500 fps

Seems like a cart waaaaaaaaaaay overlooked.

quote:

and then a 375/06 Whelen with a 300 grain Spitzer...

the 338/06 had ME of 3610,and retained 2565 of it at 300 yds, with a drop of 9.5 inches...

never using it myself, but it warrants a look see for Elk hunters...the 375/06 Whelen..

MV was 2500... ME was 4165 ft/lbs... at 300 yds retained energy was a whopping 2860 ft/lbs and the trajectory drop was 9.5 inches once again..

ya get those big bullets moving, they don't give up much momentum as they fly away from the muzzle..

with Stats like the 375/06 I am surprised you don't see and hear about a lot more guys carrying those for elk hunting..

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have been talking up the 375-06 for a bit now...
300 @ 2400 fps
longer 2.65" up to 2500 fps

Seems like a cart waaaaaaaaaaay overlooked.

quote:

and then a 375/06 Whelen with a 300 grain Spitzer...

the 338/06 had ME of 3610,and retained 2565 of it at 300 yds, with a drop of 9.5 inches...

never using it myself, but it warrants a look see for Elk hunters...the 375/06 Whelen..

MV was 2500... ME was 4165 ft/lbs... at 300 yds retained energy was a whopping 2860 ft/lbs and the trajectory drop was 9.5 inches once again..

ya get those big bullets moving, they don't give up much momentum as they fly away from the muzzle..

with Stats like the 375/06 I am surprised you don't see and hear about a lot more guys carrying those for elk hunting..

Have a look at the .375 Hawk/Scovill.

http://www.z-hat.com/375%20Hawk.htm

Or the .411

http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

Yes... I think the 375 hawk is pretty cool
300 hornadies at 2397 fps.

I think they left too much on the table in terms of case length and taper.

The 375-370 Sako is more like it. Longer and case forming would be a cinch =)

I think the 380 Howell is about just right but with the avaliability of the 370 Sako brass it seems that is the way to go.

Just neck up 9 thou.