Hello all,

Below is the text of a letter that I sent to the American Rifleman magazine. Am I overreacting or am I on target?


Chad Adams
National Rifle Association, Inc.
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, Virginia 22030-9400

Dear Chad,

I am trying to understand the praise and hype surrounding the T/C Icon rifle and the .30 T/C cartridge in the September 2007 issue of American Rifleman.

Here’s a rifle with a suggested resale price of over $1000 that is not capable of shooting groups under one M.O.A., while shooting mild, “I wish I was a .308†cartridge. This suggests the special loading techniques that Hornady used are not conducive to accuracy. Heck, a .308 Winchester can be handloaded to the same performance levels with real accuracy being the result.

“Based solely on merit, the .30 T/C is an excellent cartridge†is a statement made in the sidebar describing the .30 T/C. However, in the proceeding paragraph you describe how 63 animals were shot during the Namibian safari and only six were not recovered.

Let’s see; that’s almost 10% lost! I have been fortunate to have hunted in Namibia and Zimbabwe four times. I have shot well in excess of 63 animals and have not lost a single animal.

Other than Thompson-Center being a sponsor, I cannot understand why this article was written with this very positive tone.


Sincerely,


Jim Carlson
N.R.A. Life Member


I'd appreciate any comments ...

I read the same article but saw it slightly different.

1. They were shooting factory ammo in Africa with Hornady bullets. Once the bullet leaves the barrel the killing effect is a function of placement, velocity, bullet velocity and expansion. Makes little difference what rifle the bullet was fired out of if the shooter does not place the bullet properly. To make a special trip to Africa and wound a lot of animals testing a round that exactly duplicates numerous other rounds is a bit brainless. What does this round have that the 7.65 Mauser not have? Not much.
2. The writer alluded to the possibility of other options and future variations of the rifle with out any detail.
3. Mentioned a bolt handle option but no detail.
4. The rifle has some sort of internal bedding block that appears to be of little value accuracy wise.

The writer never mentioned why anyone should choose the TC round over the .308 Win. other than.... he likes to shoot as many different rounds as possible.


EDG

quote:

Here’s a rifle with a suggested resale price of over $1000 that is not capable of shooting groups under one M.O.A.,

I have read a few articles on the TC Icon. All of them list a MSRP of $699 and the rifles tested grouped 3/4 inch or better at 100 yards. TC also claims that each Icon is "MOA cerified". It would be interesting to see how well they can actually shoot.

The Icon actually sells for about $800.

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?action=1037&brand=TCICON

A good thing you can say about the American Rifleman is that they actually publish meaningful accuracy tests. I thought the optimistic view in the recent article on the T/C Icon and the 30 TC cartridge was quite unjustified but at least they published the pathetic accuracy data as well.

T/C should be embarrassed about about the Icon accuracy. The ONLY things the Icon has that other cheaper more accurate bolt action rifles may not have is nice wood and a Picatinny rail for scope mounting.

As far as the 30 TC cartridge is concerned, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING??? The ENTIRE useful spectrum of useful .308 caliber cartridges are already made and other good ones have died or are suffering a lingering death. The 30 TC cartridge should have been aborted. It will probably appeal to someone who wants to own "something different" but the warm fuzzy feeling will probably wear off when they find it isn't really any better than the 308 Winchester, ammunition is more expensive and hard to find, etc.

Addressing both "new" .308 cartridges, this .308 TC and the .308 Marlin, I see nothing either one can be loaded to do that could not have been done with a similarly loaded .308 Win. or .300 Savage!

You guys are soooo ignorant. The 30TC is a 3006 in a 308 package so who cares about mediocre accuracy and price. We all know a 3006 is far superior to a 308 and when the animals realize they have been shot with a 3006 accuracy becomes irrelevent! And the best part of this package is the overall length is probably a huge 1/2 inch shorter which we all know is the difference to really make the hunt.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
You guys are soooo ignorant. The 30TC is a 3006 in a 308 package so who cares about mediocre accuracy and price. We all know a 3006 is far superior to a 308 and when the animals realize they have been shot with a 3006 accuracy becomes irrelevent! And the best part of this package is the overall length is probably a huge 1/2 inch shorter which we all know is the difference to really make the hunt.

Perry

But, it pays to be ignorant! Ignorance is bliss!

reasons for the 30tc
make money
company ego

only hornady can get those velocities.

the 308 marlin express makes some sense but this...

I read a previous article about the Icon by a guy who claims to have participated in the development. I sent in a comment, it was not printed. He claimed the rifle is designed for the "tactical" rifle crowd.

I said they can't choose a bunch of design features from a features laundry list and expect the rifle to be anything but the porker it is. I handled one at the SCI Convention this year, and it was very heavy to the feel as well.

I think the designers were frightened by a Sauer...

jim

quote:

I have read a few articles on the TC Icon. All of them list a MSRP of $699 and the rifles tested grouped 3/4 inch or better at 100 yards. TC also claims that each Icon is "MOA cerified". It would be interesting to see how well they can actually shoot.

I also saw the MSRP over 1000 dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
I also saw the MSRP over 1000 dollars.

Seems like the MSRP is all over the place. Here is one article that has it at $699.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/NewAge.html

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
You guys are soooo ignorant. The 30TC is a 3006 in a 308 package so who cares about mediocre accuracy and price. We all know a 3006 is far superior to a 308 and when the animals realize they have been shot with a 3006 accuracy becomes irrelevent! And the best part of this package is the overall length is probably a huge 1/2 inch shorter which we all know is the difference to really make the hunt.

Perry

Please don't educate us, we couldn't bare it. I am just running around thinking the 308 was a 30-06 in a 308 package.

Back to the O Topic, I am just glad to see an American gun maker trying to expand and be innovative to boot. This may or may not be the end all rifle, but neither was the Win 54, nor the Rem 721. I must say that gun writer tend to be overly positive on reviews, but I come to find that deciphering the truth from the fuzz is pretty easy. I often find that accuracy claims are usually off from the production rifles as nobody wants to say that this rifle shot .5" at 100 yds and then get complaints from everyone that their rifle, which they bought based on the writers review, didn't measure up. Also, usually the rifles they get to review typically are pre-production models which may have some quirks.

Are you off base, not really, but try to put yourself in Chads shoes as well. I wish I could comment on the TC, but they haven't given me one to play with yet. The 30 TC doesn't seem to be my kind of cartridge; however, if I lived in the east, where shots are a bit shorter, I think it would be fine. I wish TC the best of luck with their product.

John

I was at the Kittery Trading Post this past weekend and they had their "Septemberfest" going on. The T/C rep was there and showed me his Icon sample. (in .308, btw) He said the price was about $1k, for what it's worth.

The MSRP is over $1000, but retail prices are closer to $800, RR has good prices BTW.

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GTC5504

Gun Gallery MSRP

I like the look. They could just offer it in the popular 243, 270, and 30-06 and sell some.

An answer seeking a question?

TC Icon isn't that a misnomer now ?. S&W owns them yet T C makes the barrels correct ?.

I still have it in for S&W , so I'm not looking to line their pockets . My last T C barrel in 22 hornet was also my last T C anything . Sold the barrel to a fellow shooter . He knew I couldn't develop a load for it . Now turns out he can't either . He's living with it .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I don't care for the looks of the rifle. I think a more traditional design might appeal to most hunters.

As for S&W, I'm just glad there back. Just my 2cents.

They DO ALREADY offer it in standard rounds...........

I think it looks nice. Wouldnt mind having one.

hell i like european styled rifle.
i actually like the way the steyrs look.
but that thing is FUUUGLY.
i dont care if they jammed a 30-06 into a round the size of a chicklet. i wouldnt carry that thing in the door of a gunshow to sell it.

If they offered it in 7-08, I might be interested but certainly not in a .243 nor a .308.

And I thought longer and thicker was better???
Why would some one want one that was shorter? Mine is short enough as it is. Is there a natural bullet enhancer like the natural male enhancer? It is not the length of your bullets but how you use them that makes the differance.

JS

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
If they offered it in 7-08, I might be interested but certainly not in a .243 nor a .308.

I don't get it. Why?

I like the looks of the rifle but wouldn't own a .243 except to rebarrel it into something useful and I have never been able to warm up to the .308. I guess you could call me a 7-08 addict. My first 7-08 was when they were still a wildcat and the barrel is inscribed: 7mm-.308. It sent its first ever 10 rounds of cobbled-up ammo into 7/8ths inch. A good start to a long love affair wouldn't you say?

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
I like the looks of the rifle but wouldn't own a .243 except to rebarrel it into something useful and I have never been able to warm up to the .308. I guess you could call me a 7-08 addict. My first 7-08 was when they were still a wildcat and the barrel is inscribed: 7mm-.308. It sent its first ever 10 rounds of cobbled-up ammo into 7/8ths inch. A good start to a long love affair wouldn't you say?

How odd, I have a factory tikka .243 win that will put 5 round shoot gorups under 1/2 moa at 100 yds no problem. Reloads have been shooting better than that. I have a .308 that doesn't shoot as well, I can only get it down to 1/2 MOA. Nothing wrong with a 7-08, but it would be a shame to overlook the 243 and 308.

John

Oh, I haven't overlooked the .243. I think they're grand for groundhogs and coyotes and 100# deer and such. But then, so is a 22-250.
The simple variety of 7mm bullets available puts the .243 in the shade. Plus you never see the long, heated discussions about whether the 7-08 is or is not a viable cartridge for deer hunting that you do for the .243. And so forth.

I have shot several Icons, and have 2 new production models sitting here in my office - .243 and a .308. All the rifles I've shot, both prototype and production, have shot great. The NRA's accuracy tests are a bit different than everyone else in that they fire 5-shot groups with no-little time allowed for cooling between shots.

The Icon I wrote up for Shooting Times delivered ten 3-shot groups between .265 and .7something. My .308 doesn't shoot quite that well, but it is a half-inch gun.

Some of the features are a bit too tactical for me, but overall the gun is very nice. The MSRP moved around a bunch because they figured out they couldn't provide the quality they wanted at $600, but I think under a thousand bucks for a quality gun with nice wood is a pretty fair deal .

The NRA still tests in the statistically sound manner of shooting 5 shot groups. I know the rage these days is to shoot 3 shot groups because the make the gun, ammo, and shooter look better. But 5 shot groups tell you a lot more.

Regarding the rifle-it sure is not my cup of tea, but I hope they sell like hotcakes. Always hoping our homegrown gunmakers stay solvent.

Based on the articles and initial MSRP in the $600's range - I was real excited to see one and hopefully buy one. Yesterday at a local gun show a T/C dealer there that I have known for years told me he can get them now and has sold 2 so far for the grand price of $953. Well excuse me but it still is a T/C and I jsut don't relate T/C nor S&W for buoilding rifles that command that price tag - especially when they have never done it before. There are somany tried and proven options such as Sako that can command that price that my personal opinion is that based on the price- no prior history and limited caliber choices that they definitely will not set the shooting world on fire with sales. They may very well be fortunate to sell enough to keep any kind of production profits to even maintain future production. I'm disappointed with the delay and then the huge price tag. I'll have to do the old wait and see on this one.

It is a constant dirge of folks whining about the loss of workmanship at Remington rifles, yet when someone puts out a rifle where there has been an extra effort made in fit and finish, the same folks want to whine about the price. What a bunch of cheap bastards. Its a simple equation. If you want it, you gotta pay for it.

Innovation, fit and finish are all good goals to me. I'd like more available calibers.....and the need to introduce new rounds into a crowded field--those are management decisions. I think it will have a future as a decent rifle once all is said and done.

When they look at an all-weather option I'll look harder....
Dan

I think market forces of supply and demand will drive price, if sales are low, price will be lowered, if they are to build and move them.

Options of calibers would be nice and likely coming but it does seem that the limited selection is perhaps a ploy/tactic to push their proprietary rounds.

Last, as far as price, I think value is relative, and after a certain price point, people feel they might just go all out custom. Also, it IS a NEW product and to intro a new product is like coming out with a brand new high performance super car and trying to sell them to compete at a price level with Ferrari, etc. and if it is something few are familiar with, well, sales won't skyrocket just because. People have brand loyalty.....even when certain companies QC do not justify, and I won't name that brand here to start that war.....

I personally handled the TC Icon at the SHOT show, nice piece, the one I held, but I would not put it up against a top European import or custom gun, lots of features and good workmanship, to me the price should be similar to a Browning as they command a little more than Remchesters often, and they are consistently finished well. The Icon is a heavy gun that I recall, solid made and likely well made and accurate, but people have to justify dollars spent for perceived quality, or GAIN in incremental quality....perceived.

I would speculate that since Smith and Wesson just bought TC for a hefty tag, just like corporate america, they want to justify their purchase and get an ROI ASAP by sticking the price tag of the purchase of TC, to the consumers of those products.

Strictly business, but will it work I don't know.

I would not pay the prices above for one I can tell you that.....just me.

People have as much brand loyalty as a dog after a bitch in heat. Don't kid yourself otherwise. TC bringing out their rifle in their proprietary round is a ploy right enough and I think it will be received with a large yawn. But "testing the market" with just a few cartridges is a long time gambit. At one time any new rifle was introduced in 30-06 and .270 only.
Whether there is room in the American market for a rifle that falls price wise between the commoner's market and the semi custom import market remains to be seen.
By heavy, what do you mean? What would it weigh, with scope, ammo and sling?

I agree with most of what you said, Rem and Leupold have a huge loyal customer base, Leupold I believe earned it by quality control consistent over the years, as best can for the increased production, 1st rate service, and marketing the brand, which is why the price increase has been far greater than inflation often times till it has gotten close to European products, which is why I prefer other brands as I perceive their quality as good if not better in ways and at a more affordable price.

That said, as far as Heavy, the rifle IIRC had a good heft, great for steady shooting, perhaps not for those who like light guns. I see a place for both depending on the type of hunting one does...

The tradeoff, then, when evaluating the positive attributes of the Interlok system and the solid-top receiver, is weight. At 7 1/2 lbs., the Icon weighs roughly the same as a long-action Model 70—acceptable in a sporter. However, it will be interesting to see what T/C can achieve if it attempts an ultralight mountain gun in the future.

The above came from this article:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:tgbuEPBziBYJ:www.n...n&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I can tell you, IF the rifle was offered in say 7mm-08, 260, 6.5x47 Lapua, I would consider one IF the price was reasonable. Retail $1025 is not to me, as if I spend anywhere near that is will be custom.

The rifle has a lot going for it, but will quality control be upheld over time if/when production increases, will new calibers be offered, and will a price point be adjusted to reflect the affordability of the mass market remains to be seen. If they get the caliber and price to my liking, I might try one someday, BUT if the quality did not live up to the hype, it would go back to the factory until it did! I work hard and expect to get what I pay for, that simple.

Oh, for MY preference, I never liked detach mags, perhaps cost Tikka a new purchase as I hear the get wear and fall out, but heck I have been happy with a blind magazine, it does not take much time to load or unload a non-removable magazine, or one without a floorplate. I wonder if it is to meet customer wants/needs or just to sell extra mags to milk more consumer dollars? Love to see a good survey on how many like DBM's. One thing for sure is the industry is going in that direction so what is driving that trend would be interesting.

Oh, on the weight, I might prefer 7 to 7.25 lbs for a short action carry gun, all around hunting. Heavier is better in a stand sometimes, and especially if you are chambered in a heavy recoiling round, which is not the case here....yet.

As far as the .30 T/C...

Of course, critics will no doubt question the need for another .30-cal. cartridge that merely duplicates what a .30-’06 Sprg. already achieves. But that’s not really the point. For those of us who just like to shoot and hunt with as many different cartridges as possible, Hornady has turned out another winner.
—Chad Adams

'nuff said

I like things different too, but this is not 'different' enough for me.

As for the report in the link above, for the money, accuracy seems a good bit worse than a TC Encore at half the money or less. Unimpressive and downright disappointing actually.

Hopefully for them, production models will do better!

As to your liking the TC round, nothing round with it, just vanilla in a different package to me. Still w/merits just as the T-65.

I would spend that kind of money ($1200.00) on an Icon… IF:

1: it was in a Caliber I wanted (30-06, 338WM…)
2: Was guaranteed to shoot under 1 MOA
3: Was attractive and durable

I have a Custom and it is built to my specs as closely as possible… but it was much more than $1200.00

If I spent $1200.00 and I was unable to get it to shoot under 1 MOA… I would be VERY unhappy… no matter how pretty it was.

I think I will let a little more time pass and see how it performs.

Doesn't do a thing for me I don't like the extractor. I don't like the bolt handle.
The caliber is just fine if that is what one wants. I am all for more cailbers.

I will buy rugers in stead.

The rifle IS different, designed that way, the bolt handle I think LOOKS nice, but it seems more people prefer the traditional KNOB vs the dog leg like the 600's and certain Interarm mausers 'butterknife' and mannlichers-old steyr's, they fit nice in a scabbard I suppose, but are less 'user friendly' I believe to some, doubt there is a change with TC, but demand or lack thereof and for what reasons may cause the mfg to consider changes to that, price, caliber options, and YES, a sub-moa guarantee that many mfg make on rifles retailing in this range.

Sako, Weatherby, and others come to mind, even Tikka at half the cost.

It will be interesting, as I don't think they are going to fly off the shelf just yet with the things people mentioned on this board, but if they get things right, I wish them success, if they have good QC and keep it.