I am curious. Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester. Hornady gave us Superperformance Ammo, low cost dangerous game ammo in a multitude of calibers, the .375 and .416 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, the Ruger Compact Magnums, and now the 9.3X62 and 9.3X74R all of which have chambered by Ruger. in addition, Ruger chambers a much wider range of calibers than Winchester. Winchester is finally building rifles again but there is no innovation while Ruger/Hornady seem to be on the cutting edge.

Ι'm not partial to Ruger rifles and I don't know what to think of the new Winchesters. I have hunted african PG with a pre-64 Mod70 in 7x57 and loved it, if the new ones are anything like that rifle, I would consider it.

BUT: looking at the winchester lineup, there is limited availability on chamberings and, the good old chestnut, NOTHING for left handers (which I am...)

so, if Winchester proves that it has learned nothing after the pre-post 64 fiasco, then they have no place in the market place. Sako, Tikka, and a bunch of others do as good, if not better, a job in building and selling a rifle.

Finman

nah .. just more choices for us!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I am curious. Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester. Hornady gave us Superperformance Ammo, low cost dangerous game ammo in a multitude of calibers, the .375 and .416 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, the Ruger Compact Magnums, and now the 9.3X62 and 9.3X74R all of which have chambered by Ruger. in addition, Ruger chambers a much wider range of calibers than Winchester. Winchester is finally building rifles again but there is no innovation while Ruger/Hornady seem to be on the cutting edge.

Jeez, give FN a chance. It's a little early to be pounding nails in that coffin.

I see the "innovation" rather unnecessary, almost gimmicky, and primarily one to try and gain sales which is fine as the goal is to make money. That said, grab a Win M70 in 270 Win, 338 Win Mag or 416 Rem and one has all that is necessary IMO. I suspect, with a bit of time, folks will realize this and many of the innovative products will go the way of the dodo bird.

quote:

Originally posted by Boxhead:
I see the "innovation" rather unnecessary, almost gimmicky, and primarily one to try and gain sales which is fine as the goal is to make money. That said, grab a Win M70 in 270 Win, 338 Win Mag or 416 Rem and one has all that is necessary IMO. I suspect, with a bit of time, folks will realize this and many of the innovative products will go the way of the dodo bird.

Blah blah. Them arrows are gimmicks. Gimme an atlatyl. Nah, man, not atlatyl. That's just marketing. Look at all them rocks and sticks laying around. A real man doesn't need no atlatyl.

Blah blah. Real men use their barehands. Rocks are for sissies and unsporting types.

Hey Jeffe, not everyone can hatch wildcat cartridges like eggs.



SSR

Theres alot of 270,3006, 243,3030s theres got to be ammo for. They may shoot em once a year in deer season but thats a big market. Win. makes alot of ammo. I cant see the new cartridges catching on like the old standbys. If you went to Walmart and said gimme a box of 6.5 creedmores hes gonna say, Who?

Winchester is just getting back in the market. They have a small but solid product line. I don't expect they will produce as many different models as Ruger. Ruger is built for civilian sales and FN makes it's money on military contracts. Winchester gave us enough new cartridges recently with all the short mags. I have one of their new featherweights and it has great fit and finish and excellent accuracy.

quote:

I have one of their new featherweights and it has great fit and finish and excellent accuracy.

Yup.....me too....so good as a matter of fact that I just ordered four more....two in .308 and two in 7-08.....gifts for the next generation!

Jeffe. Not all of us have catchers mit hands like you.
Ok I want video of hog hunting by hand.
I've seen what can be done with an ATV
I still think your idea of a sharpened steel pipe is awesome. See pig blood squirt out like a Capri Sun out of a straw.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Boxhead:
I see the "innovation" rather unnecessary, almost gimmicky, and primarily one to try and gain sales which is fine as the goal is to make money. That said, grab a Win M70 in 270 Win, 338 Win Mag or 416 Rem and one has all that is necessary IMO. I suspect, with a bit of time, folks will realize this and many of the innovative products will go the way of the dodo bird.

Blah blah. Them arrows are gimmicks. Gimme an atlatyl. Nah, man, not atlatyl. That's just marketing. Look at all them rocks and sticks laying around. A real man doesn't need no atlatyl.

Blah blah. Real men use their barehands. Rocks are for sissies and unsporting types.

They need to come out with their 375 H&H in their extreme weather model as well as start making M70s for lefties. A 470 Capstick in their super grade M70 would be a nice addition as well.

I have no idea if or when Winchester will be squeezed out of the market. Even less, I don't know whether government action or industry actions or their own internal policies will do it IF it ever happens. I'd be willing to bet a dime no-one here knows either.

BUT, I believe (different than "know") this:

It took Smith & Wesson several years to learn that although they got short term profits from introducing the new "gun of the week" many, many times, that business model also almost took them down the tubes in the long run.

The more a company does to fragment its market, the harder it becomes to identify market needs/wants clearly, and the more risk is involved with every new product.

The trick for developing and maintaining long term business health is to identify a niche or need that clearly needs filling, develop and deliver a good product to fill it at a reasonable price, and get it out there in front of and available to people as soon as you announce the product. Toss in good QA and Customer Service, and you'll be okay.

If instead, you want to have something different for every imaginable sale, real or fantasized, and spread your efforts too thin, you end up elevating your overhead, make it impossible for your dealers to keep everything in stock as their customers expect; have numerous products for which there is no need and little want; and have to raise the prices on the good sellers to make up for the losses on the bummers. (That may, in turn, kill the sales of even the good items.)


So....I am not against new products, but I fear Hornady is going to leave a lot of people holding bags named ".376 Steyr", and similar. Maybe each new whiz-bang is a good concept and an excellant product, but is aimed at a market niche too small to be part of a long term viable business model.

I hope I prove to be wrongly fearful, but we'll see, won't we?

"The trick for developing and maintaining long term business health is to identify a niche or need that clearly needs filling, develop and deliver a good product to fill it at a reasonable price, and get it out there in front of and available to people as soon as you announce the product. Toss in good QA and Customer Service, and you'll be okay."

All but one of those is an essential for a longterm successful business plan.
"a niche or need that clearly needs filling",is the odd one out.This is a determinant of how profitable that product model is going to be.
to be a successful business move it merely requires the number of units in the perceived market to achieve a profit from the investment in design, testing, tooling, & production.........irrespective of whether there is a real niche or market perception/whim as "gun of the " week/month/year.
Marketing is 90% perception.......sadly.
It depends largely on whether the cartridge is a good fit to existing receivers, bolts & calibres.

The longterm risk is to the consumer as to whether the product has real longevity & consumables at market volume become less attractive ( in profit contribution terms) to the manufacturer relative to their profit /cost opportunities in the future.
The business model for a LH action is a good case in point.
It requires design,tooling,& specific production of 3 of the 4 major components of a rifle ..........the investment becomes questionable relative to market volume........despite the obvious need with the ergonomics of LH shooters.......if the market is spread between too many products.

Some companies have chosen to opt out.........Winchester has done so.

"make it impossible for your dealers to keep everything in stock as their customers expect; have numerous products for which there is no need and little want"

In the age of 'just-in-time' product supply chains, no retailer carries everything, their business model is shelf stock overheads vs item profit.

Part of a successful manufacturing business plan is having an efficient supply chain model
that actually provides retailers with product in a timely fashion that is less than the "attention span" of the customer.

"have to raise the prices on the good sellers to make up for the losses on the bummers. (That may, in turn, kill the sales of even the good items.)"

True
this situation however relies on a CEO & CFO keeping their marketing division under control with realistic market projections.

"So....I am not against new products, but I fear Hornady is going to leave a lot of people holding bags named ".376 Steyr", and similar. Maybe each new whiz-bang is a good concept and an excellant product, but is aimed at a market niche too small to be part of a long term viable business model."

Yep, the risk is more to the consumer than the manufacturer who has done their sums on production cost vs perceived market correctly.

The risk to the consumer is that a future model has higher profit perception for the manufacturer when production tooling requires replacement

He He ..........the Auto Industry business model is a classic model of this type.........99% perception & 1% practical niche fulfillment.

Yes we will all see which of the 'latest & greatest' models & which of the manufacturers survives.

Most of what you say is true, and in a perfect business world an identified need or niche might not be required.

But without good identification of needs or niches to begin with, the odds against getting investment dollars back from models which prove un-needed or unwanted are not good.

I think Ford started to pick up a clue on that with the Edsel.

Also, "just in time" manufacturing and supply chains work well where the variety of items supplied is either limited or have predictable volumes, OR long enough "advance orders" characteristics. But they can raise insurmountable problems when the items and designs to be sold are constantly changing. It's even tougher when different tooling and volitile raw material and labor costs are also in play, and long term customer service for the few items sold must be maintained.

In a small way, it's kind of like the tax code's affect on the effectiveness of investment planners... A good investment advisor can maximize portfolio growth for his/her customers wthout much difficulty of the tax code doesn't keep changing, especially with using today's electronic trading.

But if the tax code kept changing every day, it wouldn't matter how fast trades could be made...the stability needed for long-term plans just wouldn't be there. Heck, I'm not sure anyone knows what's in Obamacare yet, or what is going to change...so how does one plan for a sound healthcare future right now?

And I almost forgot...I'm surprised you use the auto industry as a "successful" business model. How many billions did the taxpayers just get soaked for to keep those wonderful business-model players from all going under?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I am curious. Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester.

Maybe not Ruger/Hornady, but the economy killed Winchester, as Winchester is gone and no more. The current version is a Browning made in the FN plant using the licensed Winchester trademark in label only. Winchester is dead and gone, no more is the Winchester rifle made by Winchester in a Winchester plant.

Ruger/Hornady was not the cause of this demise, they just had a better business model to survive the economy and prosper.

Best

Ray Atkinson just posted a discussion in the big bore forum about how much he likes his new Ruger .375 African. This is exactly what I am talking about. Another lost sale for Winchester. Ruger/Hornady have a better cartridge in a more portable rifle and, if you prefer, a 9.3X62 as well. I confess that I would buy a Winchester if they made the Super Grade in .375 Ruger or 9.3X62 but they don't.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I am curious. Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester.

Maybe not Ruger/Hornady, but the economy killed Winchester, as Winchester is gone and no more. The current version is a Browning made in the FN plant using the licensed Winchester trademark in label only. Winchester is dead and gone, no more is the Winchester rifle made by Winchester in a Winchester plant.

Ruger/Hornady was not the cause of this demise, they just had a better business model to survive the economy and prosper.

Best

There is nothing "Browning" in the design of the new Winchester....it's pure model 70.

quote:

There is nothing "Browning" in the design of the new Winchester....it's pure model 70.


Regards,

Scott

This is mostly true.....the muzzle crown is definitely Browning.....more like a target crown and recess......I much prefer the 11 degree of the old Winchesters as it's defiiitely a better looking detail.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I am curious. Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester.

Maybe not Ruger/Hornady, but the economy killed Winchester, as Winchester is gone and no more. The current version is a Browning made in the FN plant using the licensed Winchester trademark in label only. Winchester is dead and gone, no more is the Winchester rifle made by Winchester in a Winchester plant.

Ruger/Hornady was not the cause of this demise, they just had a better business model to survive the economy and prosper.

Best

By that reasoning, Winchester has been dead since the Olin days, so early 60s.

Browning is also owned by fn. There is nothing browning about the Winchester. And the BOSS is an FN patent

If you look at the changes in ownership of those who are licensed to build the M70, you can see why I say the prominent American maker of repeating firearms, Winchester, is no more.

- On January 16, 2006 U.S. Repeating Arms announced it was closing the New Haven, Connecticut, plant where Winchester rifles and shotguns were produced for 140 years.

- On August 15, 2006, Olin Corporation, owner of the Winchester trademarks, announced that it had entered into a new license agreement with Browning to make Winchester brand rifles and shotguns, though not at the closed Winchester plant in New Haven.

- In 2008 Fabrique Nationale announced that it would produce Model 70 rifles at its plant in Columbia, SC.

The Winchester Repeating Arms Company WAS a prominent American maker of repeating firearms, located in New Haven Connecticut. The Winchester brand is today used under license by two subsidiaries of the Herstal Group, Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Belgium and the Browning Arms Company of Morgan, Utah.

As a result, they made a business decision to change the Winchester design of the M70 receiver to use their in-house Rube Goldberg designed Browning box trigger. Other changes were made such as noted above in this thread, and to further save by jobbing out their wood stocks to one of the Italian gun makers. Maybe to the stockholders these Fabrique Nationale/Browning changes sounded like a good idea, but to me, I think it a step in the wrong direction by taking the current SC "Browning" M70 further away from its Mauser inspired “Winchester” roots. Bottom line, the old ones are Winchesters that were built by Winchester in the Winchester plant, the new ones are Brownings that are built for Browning in the FN plant. No more Winchesters made by Winchester, the current SC Winchester has a good amount of "Browning" design within.



The new Browning/SC M70 toothpaste dispenser!

quote:

By that reasoning, Winchester has been dead since the Olin days, so early 60s.

Olin bought Winchester in 1931. So I guess no M70 has ever really been a Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Most of what you say is true, and in a perfect business world an identified need or niche might not be required.


And I almost forgot...I'm surprised you use the auto industry as a "successful" business model. How many billions did the taxpayers just get soaked for to keep those wonderful business-model players from all going under?

He He..........Ahhhh......but I didn't say it was successful..........just an example of a business model that is 99% perception & 1% actual niche fulfillment.

Economic practicality changed the perception of need by the consumer............ temporarily .........Political perception predicated financial support ........
heck its not their money they are playing with ..........its yours.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

By that reasoning, Winchester has been dead since the Olin days, so early 60s.

Olin bought Winchester in 1931. So I guess no M70 has ever really been a Winchester.

Actually, yeah. Winchester is a brand name that has been sold, repeatedly, to firms to make guns under that name. Usrac is another

Browning was owned by FN at the time of the agreement and the new model 70 looks nothing like a browning. Get real and keep to the facts

" No more Winchesters made by Winchester". Haven't been made by Winchester is 80 years, sir.

Dave,

Do you work for Hornady?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

By that reasoning, Winchester has been dead since the Olin days, so early 60s.

Olin bought Winchester in 1931. So I guess no M70 has ever really been a Winchester.

Actually, yeah. Winchester is a brand name that has been sold, repeatedly, to firms to make guns under that name. Usrac is another

Browning was owned by FN at the time of the agreement and the new model 70 looks nothing like a browning. Get real and keep to the facts

" No more Winchesters made by Winchester". Haven't been made by Winchester is 80 years, sir.

Jeff, What I posted were documented facts from company records. I'm not making attacks on the current M70 rifle, just posting facts on the demise of our beloved American Company, being Winchester, that produced the American Winchester rifle, built by American Winchester employees, within the American Winchester plant, until they went defunct. USRAC was the same later American Winchester employess who took stock in the continuation of making the American Winchester in the same American Winchester plant.

The current business model falls under Browning which is a subsidiary of Herstal Group, not FN. The current M70 is Browning's baby in licensed trademark only as they did not restart Winchester, but are having the other Herstal Group subsidiary, FN, produce the rifles in the FN plant. Kinda like the Olin licensed forein manufactured Winchester models sold while the NH plant was still in operation. Now, all of them are made that way. Directly from Herstal Group:

"Herstal Group has its headquarters in Herstal, a suburb of Liege, Belgium, and offices in several other European countries, North America and Asia.

Herstal Group has two internationally renowned subsidiaries:

FN Herstal, whose expertise lies in Defense and Law Enforcement business, and

Browning, who commercializes the Browning and Winchester trademarks and is a world leader in hunting, shooting and outdoor.

Each subsidiary has its own research, development and manufacturing facilities, and its own selling network.

Since 1997, Herstal Group has been 100% owned by the Walloon Region of Belgium. With manufacturing locations in Belgium, US, Portugal and Japan, the global Herstal Group provides employment to a workforce of about 3,000 people."

Best

Gary,
i wonder what you do for a living? Have you ever done contract or license manf?
OLIN is not winchester. they made rifles under the LICENSED winchester name. they sold that right to make winchester guns to USRAC.... then FN bought browning and winchester rights to manf... and played hide the snake to close a dinosauer plant..


Sir, with respect, your complaint isn't entirely valid ... winchester, inc, hasn't made a gun since the 1930s ... for the last 80 years, its ALWAYS been manf companies, trying to make money for making winchesters.

the winchester arms company is long gone... i doubt a soul that worked for that company is alive today.

i think you are being a bit disengenuous on trying to call a model 70 a browning... when the ONLY thing browning about it is the order placed with the parent company to produce a model 70.

I recently acquired one of the SC FN plant M70's in .375 H&H. I have only put 2 boxes of factory ammo through it so far and a lot of dry fire and bolt cycling using snap caps. I like it and I am impressed with its accuracy, fit and finish. I had always hoped Winchester products would make a come back and I think this is a lot of rifle for the money.

To be honest, I find this whole arguement discussion about the existance of a "real" Winchester company to be sort of tragicomedy.

Almost no American gun or gun products company stays under the same ownership and/or management for more than one generation...and many for nowhere near that long.

Ask yourself....when did the Savage family lose conrol of Savage? Or the Remington company from the Remington family? Or the Marlin Company from the Marlins? How MANY times have Speer or RCBS, or Star, or Redfield, or Lyman been sold? How about Bausch & Lomb/Bushnell? Dakota Arms? Weaver?

Surprisingly enough, I suspect one of the oldest American gun companies in terms of original family-owned shares these days just might be Ruger.......

quote:

that produced the American Winchester rifle, built by American Winchester employees, within the American Winchester plant, until they went defunct.

IMO, "the American Winchester rifles produced by American Winchester employess, in the American Winchester plant", at least for the last several years of production in NH, were manufactured on obsolete equipment, by de-motivated union employess and had very sketchy
QC, and generally at a loss.

The new M70's, produced by American employees using state of the art equipment are much better rifles. Hopefully they are profitable so they will be around a long time.
OC

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
"the American Winchester rifles produced by American Winchester employess, in the American Winchester plant"
OC

under these variables, nothing has changed, regardless than FN, Browning (an american company) FNNA, or USRAC owned the license to produce winchesters .. still american made, by americans, in an american state..

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

There is nothing "Browning" in the design of the new Winchester....it's pure model 70.


Regards,

Scott

This is mostly true.....the muzzle crown is definitely Browning.....more like a target crown and recess......I much prefer the 11 degree of the old Winchesters as it's defiiitely a better looking detail.

You shouldn't be looking at that end of the gun!



Actually I'd like to see Winchester make a limited edition rifle like . . . Remington did with the M700 Classic . . . in a different cartridge each year.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
nah .. just more choices for us!

I agerr...

There is a big market

I agree that Hornady has gotten into the flavor of the week club that Remington virtually invented. Thing about Hornady is that somebody there actually seems to feel an obligation to support an introduction for more than a few brief years, unlike Remington. As soon as the market cools, the new caliber is out of the catalog.
Marlin baffles me. I have yet to see a .338 Marlin rifle or cartridge, and that one actually sounds useful.
Whatever the genetics of the current Winchester Model 70, I like it a LOT. I have one of the South Carolina rifles in .375 H%H and it is comfortable to shoot, accurate and has a very nice trigger. What's not to like?

quote:

Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester.

Well, the capitialist system suggests makers produce what they hope will sell in the market. The market the determines who the 'winners' are, not the sellers. ??

I'm and old Mauser and pre 64 mod.70 fan, but I think Hornady has already moved way out in front, and their guns just keep getting better as they continue to LISTEN to the masses that use guns in the field...

Hornady and Ruger are the first to come out with what we want, they read their users and give us what we want for the most part.

I get the impression that the rest just don't really give a damn and they are gagging with bean counters, including Winchester, CZ, Remington and a host of others..

Just my opinnion from dealing with them at SCI and other events, and based on what I see hitting the shelves. Ruger is always there and so is Hornady..

I recently broke down and bought a Ruger 77 Hawkeye African, and its the first truly African rifle produced in years, it has all the bling and it's slim and mean, they got rid of all that excess wood, other than shortening the forend,it just couln't be better. IMO it the best production rifle made in the USA since the pre 64 and "maybe" as good or better?

Hornady has given us ammo for all the double rifles and a host of African calibers and revistited the great calibers like the 9.3x62 and others..

Yep, I think they already done it..the rest are just hanging on.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I am curious. Do you think that the Hornady/Ruger collaboration is putting the squeeze on Winchester?

Nope - Least not for me.

I donot tend to associate rifle choice with cartridge choice or vice-versa. Plus have never cared for the latest "flavor of year cartridge" - The newest one I have ever owned was introduced in 1956!

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
Actually I'd like to see Winchester make a limited edition rifle like . . . Remington did with the M700 Classic . . . in a different cartridge each year.

Or, short runs of non cataloged rifles chambered for the likes of the 7x57, 6.5x55, 9.3x62 etc.

I like the way Ruger thinks re chamberings, but what is going on in their heads with barrel lengths?
No1 300H&H, 26 inches.....perfect!!
same rifle, 300 Win mag, 22inches....????