OK, there were a few caveats. This, from the recent issue of RifleShooter magazine.

Like many others on AR, I've made my feelings known that I am a 35 caliber lover, so it was interesting to hear Mr. Boddington pick the 35 Whelen as the "...best non-magnum between 30-40 caliber..."

OK, now for the caveats. First, he considered only non-magnums. Second, factory ammo had to be offered by the majors (that eliminated the 338-06 in his opinion, even though Nosler offers no less than six loads for the 338-06. I guess he doesn't consider Nosler a 'major').
And third, he stipulated for North America.

He did opine that the 9.3x62 was better for Africa. They are so very close, I don't think ballistically it much matters, but it does when it comes to ammo availability in Africa, and I'll certainly agree with him on that point.

He did get the pic of the Whelen and 9.3x62 mixed up in the picture of them side by side, or the editorial staff did...

As a side note, he also picked the 404 Jeffery as the best over .40 cartridge non-magnum. Interesting to me, as this was my 2-rifle battery one year in Zambia when I was Buffalo and Leopard hunting. Got both animals, Buff with my 404 Jeffery and the Leopard with my 35 Whelen.

I had no idea Col.Boddington was so smart...

I can't disagree with any of that.

I have a CVA and a TC Prohunter. I prefer the CVA for now. Have used it to take a lot of pigs and a few deer. Hammers them both!

Hope to try the TC this December. Bought 2 cases of Nosler 225 Accubonds a couple of months ago.

Just waiting for Lipsey's and Ruger to chamber the Whelen in the African.

I put 4 shots in a bull the size of a nickel at 100 yards f on my 35 Whelen and 225 Accubonds last week from a formal rest.

Some on here have seen the target. Elk season for me in 2 weeks!

Somehow the idea that a .404 is not a magnum seems absurd. It’s the base case for many magnums. Is the .416 Rigby a magnum?

The whelen, sure, it’s a .30-06 necked up.

I’d also tend to think of the 9.3’s and the .35’s as essentially identical, the real difference (from a cartridge perspective) being bullet choices available. You could make a 300 grain .35 if you twisted the bore right...

If you want a non magnum .338 like gun, a fully loaded 8mm Mauser is hard to beat.

Of course, my .318 WR wins that spot for me, even if it’s a pain to feed it.

There are bullets in 35 caliber in 270-275-280-310 grains.

My Whelen with 24 inch barrel fires 275 grain Weldcore PP at 2200-2300 FPS.

I know a lot of folks report faster with that bullet and the Whelen.

I know folks report 2300 FPS with 293-300 grain bullets with the 9.3x62.

The base of the 9.3x62 is larger than the 06 case.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Somehow the idea that a .404 is not a magnum seems absurd. It’s the base case for many magnums. Is the .416 Rigby a magnum?

The whelen, sure, it’s a .30-06 necked up.

I’d also tend to think of the 9.3’s and the .35’s as essentially identical, the real difference (from a cartridge perspective) being bullet choices available. You could make a 300 grain .35 if you twisted the bore right...

If you want a non magnum .338 like gun, a fully loaded 8mm Mauser is hard to beat.

Of course, my .318 WR wins that spot for me, even if it’s a pain to feed it.

crbutler,

Boddington used the established idea that the word 'magnum', from the French, means larger than the 'standard' bottle (in this case, a case!). As the 404 Jeffery is the original case, it is not a 'magnum' of anything. He therefore does not consider it a magnum. Same for the 416 Rigby. His choice is actually the 416 Rigby, but to him, it lost out to the Jeffery due to the extra large action required for the Rigby, and that the Jeffery could be built on a smaller action, like a 98 Mauser.

I agree on the correct twist on the Whelen for the 270, 275, 280 & 310 gr. My Dakota and Ruger 35 Whelens all have 1:12 twists. Perfect. Remington unfortunately only offered the 1:16 twist which was a little slow for these 35 caliber heavyweights. Ruger initially offered the same twist, but recently have offered the 1:12 in the Hawkeye. Last year I shot my Shirus bull Moose here in CO with my 1:12 twist Ruger Hawkeye 35 Whelen using the 280 gr. SAF. Perfect!

That's a pretty poor definition of "magnum", then.

The Lazzaroni cartridges are not labeled magnum in their cartridge names, yet I know that Craig Boddington has termed them such in his writing.

The .26 Nosler (or the rest of the Nosler line) are not labelled magnum.

Yet they are all very overbore, and offer performance well above the standard rounds.

There are all kinds of shotshells that are called magnum even though their hull size is not larger than the standard.

The .41 Magnum was the original case (the .41 special came later)

Also with handguns, what is a .38 Super (compared to the .38 ACP)? Same case, but more performance.

Then the whole series of short magnums are actually reductions in size and volume from their parent case- from the .300 Win Mag (if you follow the claim it was developed from the .375 H&H) to the WSM/WSSM/SAUM lines.

What about the .375 or .416 Rugers? Not magnums? The original cartridge was termed a magnum, even if they are not.

For that matter, the .35 Whelen is duplicated in performance (roughly) by the .350 Rem Mag.

What would you call the .350 Rigby?

An over .40 non magnum is on the lines of a .45/70 or a .40-65, not a .404 or a .416. I bet one would find a hell of a lot more .45-70's in North America than .404's or .416's.

My point being that the term "Magnum" in the name is pure marketing. There is a reasonable line that could be drawn between "standard" round performance and above that.

Col. Boddington is a good outdoor writer, I have brought many of his books, and enjoy his articles, but this one is not up to his usual level of quality... probably because he couldn't hunt anywhere this year so far due to COVID, and he is reduced to writing drivel like the old .30-06 vs. .270 crap that the gun magazines used to fill themselves with when the hunting seasons were closed.

I can't argue that the .35 Whelen isn't an outstanding round; it is.

But if you read the old literature, its intent was to make a "poor man's magnum" for the biggest game in North America without having to resort to buying a magnum type receiver to build a gun that would handle the big bears and moose when these were not easily available or affordable in the US. Thus, one could argue that the .35W is a magnum .35 Remington...

Heck, defining/debating what a magnum round is would have been a better article than the actual one...



Obviously, I don't have enough to do tonight...

The Lazzaroni cartidges would be Magnums of existing cartidges. The same as the 26 Nolser is a Magnum to the 6.5 cartidges that are smaller than it, likes the 33 Nolser is a Magnum to the smaller 338s even thought they are not labeled Magnum.

The 423 Jeffery could be considered a Magnum to the 10.78x68 Mauser. So, I would call the 404 Jeffery a Magnum bc it is an increase in case capacity of a preexisting bullet and cartidge combination.

I agree with you the 35 Whelen is a Magnum to the 35 Remington and maybe the 35 Winchester given how the 35 Winchester was loaded to lower pressure for the 1895.

The 35 Whelen not using a belted case but the “standard” Springfield Case is why the dissociation with Magnumm.

I guess everyone has to draw the line somewhere as the 30/06 is a Magnum to the 30/30 or maybe 30/40.

I have not read the articles. We are all marks or fans of something. The ten of us who shoot the 35 Whelen will buy it if we see it on the rack bc it says 35 Whelen.

Biddington has worse in the past the coming out of the 50s the companies thought the word Magnum sold the cartidge and the rifle. Hence, everything had to be Such and Such Magnum. The small guys wanted their name on their cartidges. Then, the Magnum bubble burst with the new “short” and “super short” Magnums.

Nolser knows it buyers know their cartridges are magnums. Nolser wants the magazines, shows, and other media to say their name over and over again. Best way to do that is to call the cartridge by your name.

A better article would be why the use of “Magnum” has been displaced in naming cartridges.

My insomnia appreciates the conversation.

Lheym, did you draw a KY elk tag, or going out of state?

crbutler,

I do not disagree with your replies.

I was just trying to relay what Mr. Boddington was using as his premise for the article.

I'm not even sure he agrees with todays definition of the term 'magnum' as you guys above have pointed out the 'discrepancies'.

But, he chose his parameters, made it clear to the reader before he began his article, and then proceeded. So Perhaps I did not give his article a fair introduction to AR, but it's hard to write the entire piece.

Anyway, magnum or not, the main horn I wanted to blow was, kudos for the 35 Whelen!!!

I admit, I am prejudiced to the Whelen. But now, someone else says it's the best between the 30-40 calibers, non-magnum. Oh happy day...

I do think we all would agree that the .35 Whelen is one of the biggest successes of American firearms wildcatting.

It’s one that very well handled an obvious gap easily and performs its intended role very well, to the point of becoming a factory option.

I can only really think of 3 others with similar pedigree, and they are mostly more deer/varmint guns. .22-250, .25-06, .257 Roberts.

The .338 federal and .338-06 “kind of” are, but not nearly available as across the board.

Will a 35 Whelen do 2650 with a 225gr AFrame in a 24-25” barrel with no reliance on a “fast” chrono or seating the bullet long, or some voodoo powder?

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Will a 35 Whelen do 2650 with a 225gr AFrame in a 24-25” barrel with no reliance on a “fast” chrono or seating the bullet long, or some voodoo powder?

The Nosler trophy grade load with 225 accubonds is advertised at 2750 FPS. I recall a member on here saying they were getting close to 2800 FPS over the chrono in a 24 inch barrel.

Nice round. 250gr Swift A-Frame handloads at ~2450 fps mv from my Remington 7400 autoloader (22" 1:16 barrel) work pretty good on Elk out to intermediate range mostly 1 shot DRT.

Haven't loaded 225gr would guess 2600 fps mv safely achievable from my rifle. Buffalo Bore ammo claims 225gr TSX at 2800 fps mv.

https://www.buffalobore.com/in...product_detail&p=250

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Somehow the idea that a .404 is not a magnum seems absurd. It’s the base case for many magnums. Is the .416 Rigby a magnum?

That was my thought too.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Will a 35 Whelen do 2650 with a 225gr AFrame in a 24-25” barrel with no reliance on a “fast” chrono or seating the bullet long, or some voodoo powder?

Don't know about that. But the Speer reloading manual lists a 250 gr. (yes, 250) at 2,700 fps. (yes, 2,700).

At any rate, the 35 Whelen is a heck of a medium bore round, even if you only want to load a 250 @ 2,500 fps.!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_TX:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Somehow the idea that a .404 is not a magnum seems absurd. It’s the base case for many magnums. Is the .416 Rigby a magnum?

That was my thought too.

Actually, I agree as well. It only makes sense, if you agree that a magnum cartridge by definition, has to be larger than the parent case. Since the 404 Jeffery and 416 Rigby ARE the parent case of many wildcats today, then Mr. Boddington's comments can be taken in context.

However, those are pretty big cases to start with, and most of us would consider them 'magnum capacity' compared to other common rounds like the 30-06 case, etc. with which so many American hunters are familiar.

I am a big fan of the 9.3 x 62. Similar performance.

AKMatt

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Will a 35 Whelen do 2650 with a 225gr AFrame in a 24-25” barrel with no reliance on a “fast” chrono or seating the bullet long, or some voodoo powder?

Don't know about that. But the Speer reloading manual lists a 250 gr. (yes, 250) at 2,700 fps. (yes, 2,700).

At any rate, the 35 Whelen is a heck of a medium bore round, even if you only want to load a 250 @ 2,500 fps.!

My Whelen does 2700 with one grain below a max charge from Nosler’s data. It is available free online at Nolser.com. with 225 Accubond.

I got 2802 was the highest speed I got with Nolser Trophy Grade Ammo. The low speed was high 26somethung with Nolser loaded ammo.

The Back 40: Wyoming. I have drawn and killed a cow in Kentucky back in December, 2014.

Congrats on that draw and success. Do you have to wait to apply again?

Several loading manuals and powders will get many 35 Whelens to your desired speed. I would try cfe223 from Hodgdon if I were you.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Congrats on that draw and success. Do you have to wait to apply again?

I had to set out KY for 3 years. I can apply in Wyoming again, but would probably two rounds to get an elk tag.

BWW really helped me draw this tag.

Speer #14 lists 250gr at 2386 fps maximum (Model 700 22" barrel test rifle). My 7400 does 250gr SAF/2465 fps (my Remington 798 350 RM LA does 250gr/2750 fps and 310gr/2500 fps).

My loaded 250 partitions chronoed 2480-2453.

The Nosler 250 partition load is rated for 2600 FPS. I have not found that load in stock anywhere.

I have been dying to try it. When I get more partitions and time I will try to get there.

Boddington are payed for writing next month he will write something different.

That is true. However, the real pop in this article is it let all is 35 caliber fans talk about our 35 Whelens.

Western-Winchester killed a lot of almost successful 35 cartridges and squeezed future development with the 375 HH loaded ammunition and rifles.

These are always fun discussions. With a .35 Whelen for the big stuff and a .25-06 for the rest, a guy would truly be set for North America.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
These are always fun discussions. With a .35 Whelen for the big stuff and a .25-06 for the rest, a guy would truly be set for North America.

Good choice Bill. That is exactly my 2- rifle battery for my NA hunting:

25-06 = Antelope & Deer

35 Whelen = Elk & Moose

Works well for me!

25-06 AKA
25 Whelen
25 Neider

35 Whelen and the 25 Whelen/Neider make an excellent combo.

I got a kick out of "the 9.3x62 is best for Africa" and the 35 must be best for NA?? That may be the confoundest statement of the year!!

I like both calibers and the 338-06, but what ever is best for Africa is certainly best for the USA, ask any elk, they know that.

However some will never accept common logic when it comes to "old betsy".

We could argue this until the cows came home but I'm having such good luck with my 338-06 with 185TSX and heavier bullets that it will be my choice for most NA hunting in the future.

Mark

Push come to shove and only allowed one rifle for hunting NA...Give me a 30-06 loaded with 200 gr. Nosler Accubonds or partitions at 2700 FPS. I have two of those, the other is loaded with 165 TTSXs at almost 2900 FPS as I recall..Neither one has changed zero more than a click or two in the last 40 years, but I still test fire before any hunt because Ive been told wood is unstable!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
Boddington are payed for writing next month he will write something different.

True. I don't pay attention to gun writers anymore. But if one thinks about it, a writer has to write to get the readers' "juices flowing." In this case, when one looks at which gun magazine to buy and one sees that there is an article about one's favorite cartridge, one just buys that magazine.

In reality there is not a "best" cartridge. A cartridge can be best at something, but not all. As such, every one of us has a "best one." Just think about this: if there was one best cartridge, then there would not be any reasons for buying other cartridges

At one time when I was hunting elk every year, I really wanted a 35 Whelen but, I found a Ruger M77 358 Win that I couldn't pass up. It has become one of my favorite rifles. I later picked up a CZ 550 American Kevlar in 9.3x62 that may be one of my most accurate rifles. I found an great load for it using Varget and Nosler 250 grain bullets. I will probably never own a 35 Whelen because I have it covered with either or both of these two rifles. That said, a 35 Whelen may have been a good choice and provide a good alternative for both. But, I'm a rifle looney and 2 rifles are always better than one.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I got a kick out of "the 9.3x62 is best for Africa" and the 35 must be best for NA?? That may be the confoundest statement of the year!!

I like both calibers and the 338-06, but what ever is best for Africa is certainly best for the USA, ask any elk, they know that.

However some will never accept common logic when it comes to "old betsy".

Hi Ray,

To be fair to Mr. Boddington, I hope I haven't misrepresented anything he has said.

It was my impression that he was referring to two things on the 35 Whelen for NA and the 9.3x62 for Africa issue.

One, was the legality of the 9.3 for a number of countries in Africa for DG, whereas the 35 caliber is not legal for DG. And two, one can easily find 9.3x62 ammo in Africa, which certainly could not be said of the Whelen.

I think he was in agreement that they were ballistically about the same.

I have always said that the 9.3x62 is a tiny bit better ballistically than the Whelen, but not enough for any animal to tell the minute difference. But I think his point is well taken on the legality issue.

And I'm taking your advice Ray. The next Elk I shoot, I'm asking his/her opinion on this issue. I had no idea we could talk to the animals!!

I have a Whelen AI 40° shoulder that I shoot 250 Partitions at 2600 fps with no pressure signs and ten reloads with no apparent damage to the cases or primer pockets. One load for everything, and a real killer.
I use Remington nickel plated Whelen brass with WLR primer and 60.5 gr of Alliant PP-2000MR powder @ 3.34" OAL. May not be safe in any other rifle, but mine is a custom with very tight chambers, so . . . . Fired cased hold an average of 74.2 gr of water. 24 inch, 14 twist barrel.

Whelenite,

Great looking rifle!

Ya, a 35 caliber 250 gr. Partition @ 2,600 fps is a death ray alright...

As you found no pressure signs with that load, have you ever experimented with even higher velocity? Just curious.

Not to brag but here is mine

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=100755207


She is one the most accurate rifles I have seen even with pencil barrel. If you want to see the four shot group into a nickel pm me.

quote:

True. I don't pay attention to gun writers anymore

Same BS decade after decade.

Coupla swell rifles, guys. When I lived near Bend, Oregon, where Nosler is located, a friend had one of their Model 48s in .35 Whelen, and darn if we weren't ringing a gong at 600 yards out in the junipers with that thing, once the holdover was established.