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| One of Us |
Having been completely had, humbled if you will, I think I've earned the right to point out that it is a repeating mousetrap. Stop trying to help. He may, or may not, need it. But mostly, he's just being entertained. | |||
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If it is about entertainment, it seems he's spent a lot of time, money and energy shooting those massive groups!!! | |||
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It's like puttin a nice fat frog, in a live frog rig, and casting it onto a large Lily Pad in a pond full of 6 pound largemouths. No rifle made could be that inaccurate and it appears no one even noticed that in at least one target there are two sizes of bullet holes. As for copper fouling, there must be a lot of guys still shooting the first five years of Barnes X production. Even they would be good for 50 rounds in a quality barrel (cut rifling and lapped). As many a real shooter has said:" more good rifles have been ruined by cleaning than shooting" Most shooters under 50 have never shot 4 position 22 or high power and think a sling is for carrying a rifle. Happily our range has alternating bench rest and position shooting spots. Always fun to amaze the "utes" with what an old man with a National Match M-1 and proper target loads can do to the humble Type E and Type F target silhouettes @300 yards with iron sights and a tight sling. Kneling is getting tough though as the parts don't bend like they did 50 years ago. NRA Life Member 1960 | |||
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Who is the frog?
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simile: A figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared, usually in a phrase introduced by like or as. There was a time when English was taught in our schools and people understood what a simile and metaphor are. | |||
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And then there is sarcasm, which you seemed to have slept through... | |||
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Now girls, play nice.    | |||
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[URL=  ]march28[/URL][URL=  ]sighting in(reduced charge by 1 grain)[/URL][URL=  ]off the bench -last three shots fired[/URL]I am trying to learn.Maybe you can teach me tonight | |||
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How hot is the barrel during those last three shots? In my experience increased fouling raises pressure, and velocity. The shots do not strike lower on the target. But I don't shot 1 centerfire rifle 50 times in under an hour. | |||
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It was hot.I had cleaned down to the metal before shooting.If I go out and shoot another 50 rds again without cleaning I know the groups will become really large and the shots will drop much further.This will also happen on the second half of the shots if,following this string, I only clean with a jag and patch instead of using a brush and patch.The shots hitting highest on the target were again among the first few shots fired offhand(some of which I could call). I never had a rifle shoot higher(velocity greater)because the barrel was hot.I am not saying it can not happen-its just that I have never seen it. I have at times shot out of an extremely hot barrel and had a chrony with me.There was no increase or decrease in velocity. | |||
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This is one of the reasons I do not like to shoot bronze or brass bullets in my big bores.It seems the rifling has a hard time engraving these bullets and at ranges from 50 and beyond they act like bullets shot out of a really fouled bore.In some cases they shot so low they could not even get on the target-also groups were too large to measure. | |||
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Repjeating mousetrap! | |||
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I am thinking about getting a 22 bolt action rifle to supplement for the days that I do not feel like dealing with recoil.Even 100rds of 308 a week is getting to me.Lately I am grouping a little too much to the right.I am going to set my off the bench zero 3 inches to the left and see if that helps. | |||
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I would have been happy if my Mini 14 shot that well!  **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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I was at the range again today.I shot a centered offhand group using a off the bench POI setting 2-3 inches to the left.I think my Lott needs 3-4 inches because of its heavier trigger pull weight. I think I need to strengthen my upper body somehow for a stronger hold.No problem with my legs they are as strong as steel! This rifle groups 3-4 inches off the bench at 100yds. [URL=  ]april 21[/URL]a success | |||
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Shot this target today.The holes circled in green make up the sighting in group off the bench at 100yds. [URL=  ]100yds offhand[/URL]It is strange that sometimes I get better as the string goes on and sometimes I get worst.I guess it all depends on how tired you are when you begin.I think if you are well rested shooting will get better from the point you start. I am satisfied with todays shooting-especially with the weather-it was just beautiful! Summer is here and it is getting HOT! HOT! HOT! | |||
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I have to ask you a few questions Shootaway. 1) What type of rifle are you shooting? 2) What caliber (I assume a .308)? 3) Are you using a scope or iron sights? 3) Why so much off-hand shooting when you're trying to find out how a rifle shoots? and 4) Are you doing the handloading or someone else, or is it factory stuff? Once you answer these, then maybe we can help you figure out your problems. I've never seen a high quality rifle shoot that bad and I'm not trying to personally degrade you. Somethings got to be wrong, and you're wasting a lot of dough on ammo at this point. Also, why not try to get the rifle shooting right at 50 yards? You have me perplexed!! JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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mdstewart-i take it you are not a shooter.this is for advanced folks | |||
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If I advance to your level please shoot me. | |||
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Never mind; sorry I even tried. Last time I will respond to anything by Shootaway. I guess all my years as a hunter, fine gun dealer, and my years in the military as an Infantry Officer disqualifies me as a serious shooter. So I'm just going to learn from Shootaway, who obviously knows it all. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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[URL=  ]May 3[/URL]Got a rebarreled rifle coming in next week.It will be interesting to compare offhand results between rifles. | |||
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UPS!!!! I have looked at the targets , and always wondered what size of Bockshots you were using Now i suddently realize that you are using a rifle   | |||
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How do we know these were at 100? are you sure? they might be at 50 yds- do tell please who or what would you consider advanced? Are you still trying to shoot buffalo in the belly as on your video? | |||
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[URL=  ]rebarrel[/URL][URL=  ]she should sure shoot well[/URL][URL=  ]heavier barrel[/URL]rifle weight on the left 1s 9lbs 4oz and 10lbs 14oz on the right.Barrel on the right 4 inches longer. | |||
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Well right away it looks like the glass bedding job is done wrong. The recoil lug should only contact the glass on the back. The front, sides and bottom should have plenty of clearance between metal and glass. Fix that, properly torque the bedding screws, make sure the scope mount and rings have no slop in them, put a scope you know works (from another rifle), buy several boxes of premium factory ammo and get someone to shoot it who isn't flinching like a goosed schoolmarm and then report back. As you are now shooting, I don't know an outfitter who would let you out of camp to go shoot a leg off some poor animal. | |||
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[URL=  ]baikal 45-70[/URL]getting her ready for some open sight shooting | |||
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I predict that if you wire the front trigger to the rear, load the rifle, take offhand aim at the 100 yard target, use the rear trigger to fire both barrels simultaneously, you will find not only the best two shot offhand group you have ever fired, but neither bullet will have dropped due to fouling and you can mercifully end the Baikal Experiment. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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I would love to see the rest of the folks here throwing rocks at our friend post THEIR OWN 20-round string, 100 yard targets shot offhand.... Oh... Yeah... That's because you shoot off the bench/bags only and shoot 3 or 5 shots and call it good.... Probably haven't shot offhand in 20 years... at least not at 100 yards... Personally - shooting Minute of Coke Can at 100 yards, unsupported, off hand isn't easy... It takes a LOT of concentration and focus... Sure - the first 2 rounds are easy.. but after 10 rounds - it gets to you... Most folks can't shoot that good at 25 yards offhand... Thanks | |||
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Sir, Point well taken. My comments were unkind. I apologize. Also; I have no problem with the size of the groups. I just don't understand the thought that they prove anything about bullet drop due to fouling but again, as long as free speech and the right to keep and bear arms survives, anyone has a right to both think, say and shoot to attempt to prove their point. I respectfully withdraw. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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You are so right at the difficulty of shooting off-hand, and most folks don't practice it very much, except possibly for us serious double rifle and/or dangerous game shooters. But that's not the issue at hand here. Shootaway was looking for help/insight as to why the rifle he was shooting (I now assume it is the Baikal?) would not keep tighter groups. If you haven't first confirmed how the rifle shoots from off the bench, why the hell waste dozens of rounds on off-hand shooting. I mostly practice off-hand or hasty-rest type shooting to emulate real hunting situations. But, before I practice off-hand, I want to have absolute confirmation as to what my rifle does from a perfect rest. I can then have the confidence to practice off-hand. Real shooters do several things before they practice off-hand: 1) Get to know their rifle as intimately as possible. 2) Know the twist on the barrel/barrels and which bullet weights/velocity should shoot best from that rifle. 3) Either hand load possible best loads or purchase factory ammo that best matches what ammo should work. 4) Dial in that rifle from a bench and work on loads, adjusting sights, adjusting mounting positions, analyzing trigger pull, etc., etc. 5) Shoot it enough from the bench so that you know when fouling affects accuracy. Being patient enough to allow for proper cooling. 6) Once dialed-in, rotate practice from bench and off-hand so that confidence is maintained in the rifle and in one's technique. 7) Practice some more. And I'm sure others can help me add to that list. But to try to analyze why a rifle of any type appears to have accuracy problems from nothing more that off-hand targets at 100 yards is an exercise in futility. I frequent this site so that I may learn as much as possible from some of the best around the world, share what tidbits I may have to share, and to develop friendships through our shared interests. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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After taking a closer look at the Baikal I think I may regret buying it.The barrels are too thin if one can call them barrels.I dont know how I am ever going to get a couple of hundred rounds out of them let alone two thousand.I have never seen a barrel so thin.It doesnt seem like a smart buy. | |||
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It will be interesting to see what shooting this longer and heavy barrel offhand will look on paper at 100yds.I shouldered the rifle and I certainly feel the extra weight on the forearm.I see the front bead really wants to drop with all that weight out there. | |||
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After looking at all these targets and counting bullet holes I think I would just sell out. I know how you feel though. I had a 100yd archery target that looked like that one time. Took me 23 shots to foul the barrel! | |||
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John I have never heard of anyone that intentionally offsets a zero to compensate for their offhand zero and "drop due to fouling". Have you? I also think you have done little off hand shooting or your own standards would not be so pitiful.
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IF your rifle is set up for offhand shooting (hook buttplate, correct drop, palm rest, proper weight and balance), amazing groups can be shot standing on your hind legs. Take a look at these groups and note the yardage. 250 points is a perfect score. These are not bench rest groups either, nor "modern cartridges nor jacketed bullets. http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/y...BB.pl?num=1364655509 Almost nobody knows how to shoot 4 position, how to use a sling or shoot iron sights. Betcha a steak dinner I could shoot 200 yard groups 1/2 the size of the OP with my National Match M-1, a tight sling, iron sights and some of my hoard of LC National Match ammo, OFFHAND. It's all about proper training, coaching and sending many rounds downrange. (My M-1 is on barrel #2). He needs a week with a good AMU coach from Camp Perry. | |||
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Back yet again Larry? Why?? It simply boggles the mind why Lawrence Root (pigmaster/bumfarto/4barexpert/silverbullet/ 45-70shooter/artshaw, etc, ect...) feels compelled to continually circumvent the wishes of the Moderators, Admin. and/or Owner for him to be gone from a web sight where he is neither welcomed nor wanted. Rather pathetic.
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Just got back from the range. I started the session by sighting in off the bench.That did not take long as the first shots from the barrel were in the orange(smith does a good job with the sights). I shot until the barrel fouled and settled with a 4 shot group to the left of the bullseye.I was good to go and started a 40 shot,100yds offhand string. It was a real struggle with the weight of the rifle with the new barrel.It was really tiring. As you can see from the target the group was high and to the left. There was no reason for the group to be high IMO,except for the heavier weight of the barrel. I think the difficulty in getting the rifle up for proper sight alignment caused me to see too much of the front sight post.This caused a high POI. This goes to show that one should never rely on a off the bench zero for offhand shooting. [URL=  ]100yds off the bench[/URL][URL=  ]100yds offhand[/URL] | |||
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My final suggestion would be to purchase a 22 rimfire medium heavy target rifle that is accurate and has a good trigger. Savage comes to mind. Fit it with a homemade hookbuttplate and palmrest. Forget about the 100 yard cenetrfire off hand groups. Move into 50 feet on an indoor range. They'll be no flinching, fouling, ammo quality issues to concern you. Take a look here: http://www.shootingusa.com/SIG...29-16_schuetzen.html to see what a purpose built off hand rifle looks like. There are very few contemporary rifles that even come close except perhaps some of the High Wall commemoratives that have lots of drop in the stock and a "rifle" (semi hook) buttplate. They can be easily fitted for a palmrest. If you wish to become an excellent offhand shooter no common bolt gun "as is" will do it any more than a shotgun designed for shooting Trap would be at home jumping ruffed grouse in the woods. You can keep banging away with your bolt gun designed to be shot off a bench rest or bipod and you'll probably not get a whole lot better. Tailoring your rifle to it's intended use will help a lot. Starting with a 22 rimfire is never a mistake. Good shooting ! | |||
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I read thru this entire comedy and dutifully looked at all the targets and think I can truthfully say I have never seen worse and I have been shooting rifles for over 60 years. I think I have it figured out though. He lists his address as Montreal and last time I was in Montreal they all spoke FRENCH and we are not able to understand what he is saying. I know I have a 20 shot group I shot (off a bench) with a Winchester Mdl 70 with a custom laminated stock. This is the stainles steel model. Stock is glass bedded (properly) and scope was a Leupold 1.5 x 5 VX-III. I fired from bench loading 3 rounds at a time (this magazine holds only 3 rounds) with no cooling for the entire 20 round string. The resulting group measured .72. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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zimbabwe, I'm afraid you're correct. I kept hoping he was really a serious shooter that was reaching out for real assistance. Once you mentioned Montreal, the lightbulb went off. Having spent far too much time in Quebec, I should have caught on quicker. After all it is the only province in a politically correct country that claims to be bilingual where less English is spoken than in North Korea. And let us not forget that Quebec wants to keep all the terrible gun laws the rest of Canada is tossing in the trash, that has cost a country with fewer people than California over two billion dollars with NO effect on crime. Perhaps all his guns will be confiscated and lousy shooting will no longer be a concern ? (a bit of levity) | |||
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