of all the Premium .30cal hunting bullets available, which expanding design Brand/model /weight is the most ballistically efficient with greatest weight and down range vel.& energy retention,that is also suitable for both close and long range work ?

Aframes, Failsafes,Northforks,Woodleighs, would not exactly come out of NASA wind tunnel tests with flying colours.
Accubonds, TSX, Scirroco,Interbond, GScustom, seem to offer much more in the ballistic design department.
The weights that seem ideal for the most efficient down range perfrmance seem to be somewhere between 180-200gn, depending on design.
So which is the combination of weight/design that has it all,Or comes the closest) to having:

- suffcient expansion/maximum penetration at varied ranges
- highest weight retention
-best/most efficient down range figures.

200 Nos. AB is a good bullet. I've dropped a deer at less than 30 yards with one from a 300 RUM, and out to 354 without a hitch.

180 Scirocco is good too.

I've not tested any Hornady equivalents.

There was once a guy who posted on here like a broken record that when you have a very expensive hunt at risk, go with the best terminal performance.

The guy was often derided for being arrogant. I happen to know now that he was dispensing some pretty good advice.

The guy's name? Allen Day.

For my next expensive hunt, I will use either a Barnes X, Nosler PT, Swift A Frame, etc. Allen was right.

The 180 and 200 gr. TSX have a BC of .550. Thats pretty tough to beat. They will retain more weight than almost any other bullet. I don't know how well they expand at low velocity.

Personally I think they are overkill for deer, but are probably the best elk bullet in areas where you may get a long or a very short shot. They are also very expensive.

Hunting large game for the pot, such as elk in your country, at longer distances out to 300 yards can be done quite effectively with a 200 gr bullet such as a Swift A-Frame. It retains its momentum fairly well by virtue of a high weight retention ratio (90% plus) and the fact that the 200 gr bullet has a high BC equal to .444 resulting in a slower drop off in velocity.

Any bullet with a BC more than .400 would be good in fact. A high BC helps in particular with less wind drift, whereas bullet drop (inevitable due to gravitational forces) gets fixed largely by appropriate "zeroing" of your rifle at your intended range (say from 200 to 300 paces). Zero at 250 yards for that kind of distance and the BC is not that much of a limiting factor. RN bullets are not intended for long-range shooting and is better left for Semi-Spitzers or Spitzers.

My focus would always be on using a premium controlled expanding bullet. The make can be your choice based on being readily available or on what you consider to be the best. The 200 gr Swift A-Frame bullet is indeed a good bullet. Launched at 2780 fps, like in my 300 H&H, is as ideal as one can hope for. The 180 gr Swift A-Frame bullet has a BC of .400 and would be good too, when used at 30-06 velocities. However, the 300 H&H or the 300 Win Mag would be my pick as they are better suited for longer ranges, and combined with a heavier bullet, makes it a better choice for larger antelope in my opinion.

BC's become more of an issue beyond 300 yards - play with your ballistic calculator and you will see differentials in bullet drop and wind drift. I am not much concerned about energy figures as momentum values, with all its limitations, give a better clue. I am not trying to make a case that the Swift A-Frame bullet is the best, but it is certainly one of the top 5 bullets (Barnes TSX, North Fork, TBBC, Swift A-Frame, Rhino, Stewart Hi-Performer, Woodleigh PP, etc).

Take care
Chris

quote:

Aframes, Failsafes,Northforks,Woodleighs, would not exactly come out of NASA wind tunnel tests with flying colours.

I suspect you're right there. However the advantage offered by more aerodymanic bullets is slight at best.

We're not sending the bullet to the moon.....we're killing big game.

Frankly I doubt that there's a pinch of $h&@ difference in any of the ones you mentioned and throw in the TBBC as well. All are worthy of the cost.

To the question.....IMO it's the accubond and based only on a guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
of all the Premium .30cal hunting bullets available, which expanding design Brand/model /weight is the most ballistically efficient with greatest weight and down range vel.& energy retention,that is also suitable for both close and long range work ?....

You might want to do a Google on "Lost River Bullets" and see if they have what you are looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAssKisser:
There was once a guy who posted on here like a broken record ........
The guy was often derided for being arrogant. I happen to know now that he was dispensing some pretty good advice.
The guy's name? Allen Day.

If you didn't mind digging through a average of 57 tons of ego-centric "Me My Searcy, Me My Echels" bullshit to find the rice grain of wisdom in his posts. But what else would you expect from a parasite on socity that thinks he can purchase respect, commonsense and experance?

I think the Barnes X and TSX are great.

If your looking for BC on a 30 mag, my magic number for me is .5 a little less or a little more is fine. The real advantage of a high BC really doesn't mean a whole lot under 400 yards, the deferance between .485 vrs .510 just doesn't matter much in game fields.

I like 200 Gr partions just a tad under the .5, with excellent terminal performance. You can spend more on bullets for sure, but for N. American hunting I am not sure your getting a lot of value beyond that. Don't get me wrong I like premium bullets, but I am a 1 or 2 load guy in my hunting rifles, that starts on the bench, and the reloading bench and a lot of sorting out loads. Once I get it all dialed in I leave what works alone. That means a investment in those premium bullets on the target bench, which I am not willing to do on every rifle I shoot.

The advice on using good bullets on expensive hunts is sound, but I would use my best load for my rifle, currently that would be a Nosler. I have been looking at Woodleighs and Swifts though for a couple of my rifles, just haven't sorted this out yet.

I'd not get all worked up about BC, much rather have a bullet with great terminal performance. That means North Fork or TSX or Nosler partition. The BC pertains to killing power as much as a PHD pertains to common sense. It's best to have both, but damn near impossible to find. Also I think you'll find if you test the Barnes, the real BC is not anywhere near the published BC, while the Nosler will be close. Mike Brady of North Fork bullets doesn't really know of care what the BC is, just figures the idea is to kill the game, my philosophy exactly.

I am no expert , But anything that will shoot out of your gun and Has a BC of .500 to .700
should be the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAssKisser:
There was once a guy who posted on here like a broken record ........
The guy was often derided for being arrogant. I happen to know now that he was dispensing some pretty good advice.
The guy's name? Allen Day.

If you didn't mind digging through a average of 57 tons of ego-centric "Me My Searcy, Me My Echels" bullshit to find the rice grain of wisdom in his posts. But what else would you expect from a parasite on socity that thinks he can purchase respect, commonsense and experance?

Tailgunner:

I don't have to kiss anyone's ass. Search through the posts and you will find me disagreeing plenty with Allen Day. I certainly would disagree with his posts on expensive rifles, for example. I have now lost two animals using non-premium bullets (and they weren't even high BC non-premiums), so the next time I will be more concerned about bullet terminal performance than BC.

I have never met Allen Day. But just curious, why do you think he is a parasite?

The Barnes Bullets (take your pick) have the most utterly optimistic BC's on earth. I was happy to see in their latest catalog they've started to "downgrade" the BC figures to correspond more with a planet under the influence of gravity and atmosphere.

Brad is correct on this. Published BCs may be useful to compare different bullets by the same manufacturer, but are pretty dubious basis of comparison between bullets made by different manufacturers.
ps
I think a little jealousy is showing regarding Allen Day.

Woodjack ----- I hunt Deer and Elk, with an occasional Alaska or Canada trip thrown in. I also made one African Safari and hope to do more someday. I shoot mainly North Fork bullets because they always seem to shoot best in my barrels, I also have good luck with Barnes TSX and Nosler Partitions in some of my rifles. I limit myself to 300 yards but will go out to 350 if I really feel good about the situation. I loaded a buddy 200 grain North Forks with his .300 Ultra Mag for an Elk hunt in an exclusive area that he had won in a national drawing. His accuracy at 100 yards was .5 MOA before he left for the hunt. He scored on two out of three shots at 420 yards and got his Bull, recovered the bullets and brought them to me, I in turn sent to North Fork. Those two bullets you can see on www.northforkbullets.com under .30 Caliber 200 grains. That is the longest any of my loads have taken game, but results like that keeps me shooting North Forks when the chips are down. Good shooting.

Are these the bulletsyou're referring to?

Tthey look like well performing bullets to me. Especially for a bullet that wasn't designed for llong range.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
...I think a little jealousy is showing regarding Allen Day.

Hey Mike and Az Writer, Only if a person wants to be thought of as an inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart.

If either of you have purchased ANY rifle services from a Gun Smith other than Mr. Echols, you are a complete fool - according to the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart.

Nope, not making it up, you can go to this Thread where Echols rifles are perfect and all others are trash to get a first hand idea of what he thought of anyone who did not buy from Mr. Echols.

You will also notice in the thread that once he was called on it, he did a bit of back-peddeling, but it was too late because his first words were captured.

As for the inconsiderate, ill-mannered and very-stupid(how he refered to himself) characteristics of his personality, you can go to this Thread on Sniveling and Whinning because one of his rifles actually got "oudoors" and was used a bit by one of his "friends(?)".
---

Hey Tailgunner, Seems like a rather accurate post you made to me, except you went a bit "soft" on the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart.

I chose the tsx instead of the northfork because it performs superbly on big game,is very accurate in my rifles and has a much higher ballistic co-efficient than the northforks.They are also cheaper than the northforks.

vapadog ----- Yes, the two marked Elk are the bullets I was referring to. Many thanks for posting them, I am a computor neophyte, I do well to turn it on. ----- I sent Mike other bullets recovered from my hunting experiences and expect to see them there someday perhaps. A 370 grainer .416 Remington on a Cape Buffalo, a 270 grain bullet from a .358 STA that took a Kongoni (Lichenstein Heartbeeste). A 270 grainer from a .358 STA that my son took a Bull Elk through the shoulders at 120 yards then penetrated 99% of a Cow Elks head, bullet recovered against the cranium on the far side. All had a very high weight retention, and perfect mushrooms. The man can certainly build a good bullet. Good shooting.

phurley, Most all bullets (as well as any products for that matter) will suffer some bad press with the good. It's a rare bullet that has no bad press and NorthForks seem to be just that. I never consider obvious things to be negative like price or looks.....those things are obvious before the purchase.
The only other bullets that I don't recall bad press is the A-Frames and TBBCs and for all intents and purposes they are identical in function......a bonded front core and a solid rearend pushing.

I bought my first NorthForks the other day and am looking foreward to trying them soon.

For the from what it is worth category I have a thought or two on some of this.

Mainly what Hot Core and Tailgunner had to say. In all honesty I can't think very highly of people that trash talk people in their abesense.

Now AD was/is a fella that likes, wants, can afford and demands the best! He liked preme bullets and IMO with good reason. He liked Echols rifles and again with good reason (they are the best in the world pretty much slam dunk). He liked to take qualtiy hunts and had worked hard to be able to afford them. And once again with good reason.

He is/was not afraid to speak his mind, and did it with confidence, albeit not always the way that Dale would of done it. But, nevertheless he spoke from experience, and not from something he learned/read in a book and or from hearing someone else talk about it. As some on these forums have a perpencity to do.

AD is also a fella that if one takes the time to listen, and not get his feelers hurt that one could learn more than a bit from.

He's more experience on the hunt than most in these forums will ever dream of having.

Was he demanding of equipment, hunts and of people yeah I would say so.

But, he would not take the time to trash talk someone behind their backs. He would stand his ground and not backdown one inch for sure.

Now, if it were my choice would I prefer to spend time in a hunt camp with the people who talk behind others backs. And or if I could spend time in a camp with a fella that if he had something to say he would say it to my face and would stand his ground.

Well, it is pretty darn easy for me to choose which one I would share a camp with.

Just a thought, not very bullet related at all but is something I felt compelled to say.

Make it your best day!

Mark D

Ditto that Mark...

Hey Mark, Not saying a thing "behind his back", it is all out here in the open for the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart to see, as well as everyone else.

I had thought about "PMing Mike and Az Writer" with the links, but I do believe that would have been talking behind the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart's back.

It is all there for anyone to read, all they have to do is follow the links and decide for themselves. The words that leave the real impression are his put-downs of everyone. Perhaps though, you somehow enjoy that. I never have understood that, but it doesn't matter.

vapadog ----- I have shot several hundred Swift A-Frames. When I was first developing my .358 STA loads I was at the Elk Foundation convention in Portland and bought 12 boxs of bullets in .338 (for my .338 Lapua and .340 Wby) and .358 STA's, because I could take them back on the plane with me thus saving shipping, and the guy didn't charge me sales tax. I was very pleased with the way they shot, particularly their toughness in my test boxs. I did get pinpoint accuracy with the 225 grain with my .338 Lapua but consistently got better accuracy with all other bullet sizes in both chamberings, with the North Forks. ----- I was starting to consider the TBBC's when getting ready for a Moose hunt in Grizz country and my outfitter said he had had a failure with the bullet and nearly got a hunter eaten by a Bear. At the time I turned to the Nosler Partition Gold for the .340 Wby I was shooting and developed a very accurate load that eventually got me a nice Moose in the Farewell Burn. ----- I have several boxs of every bullet developed in the last 10 years in this country and have shot them extensively. I got very good accuracy with the Kodiak bullets from Alaska but in my test box they pulvarized into a silver mush at the speeds I was shooting them, at lower speeds they may be fine. If I have an old tried and true load that works I don't mess with it, as in the 180 grain Nosler Partition in my .300 Winny I have shot for over thirty years, although the 180 grain North Fork is as good, and I have to load it for my son because he prefers it. I have said this to say, I shoot all of the bullets and amazingly the North Forks are as good or better than all of them straight down the line. When I can get pin point accuracy with a very tough hunting bullet, I can't ask for more. Good shooting.

Seems like we have a couple of Whitetail Hunters talking about things they know not of. Being disagreeable and being right are not mutally exclusive.

At least you two fellows have half of the task accomplished.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mark, Not saying a thing "behind his back", it is all out here in the open for the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart to see, as well as everyone else.

Now what was Saeed saying he would do quickly to people that just make personal attacks?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mark, Not saying a thing "behind his back", it is all out here in the open for the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart to see, as well as everyone else.

Now what was Saeed saying he would do quickly to people that just make personal attacks?

I have a feeling that rule only applies to a select few that don't see eye to eye with Saeed.

As to what bullet to use I like the ones with very sharp meplats that don't get flattened in the magazine. So I would see if Accubonds shot well in the particular gun.

As to Allen Day I wish that he would come back here. True he over did it in some ways but he had really refined his delivery as of late when some here just kept up the rude comments that were over the top.

Allen is right on some things and overstated others. As of late he stuck his foot in it again over belted headspace. All in all he has been a lot of fun.

I don't like rude comments about others and llke to see the arguments play out.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
of all the Premium .30cal hunting bullets available, which expanding design Brand/model /weight is the most ballistically efficient with greatest weight and down range vel.& energy retention,that is also suitable for both close and long range work ?

The most ballisticaly efficent "weight" downrange is going to depend largley on which 30 cal chambering it is applied from. For instance, my personal belief is that the 165 weight bullets provide the optimum weight for a 308, 180 gn for an 06 and so on.

As for the rest of the question, I really like accubonds. I think it is really difficult to compare the monolithics with an accubond from a purley ballistic standpoint because of the difference in the materials. The X bullets are generally longer but not without a price, the "leaded" bullets have greater density which certianly will give them back an edge in retaining velocity. Apples and oranges for the most part, but I would give the edge to the polymer tipped bullets as they gain a bit of length over other leaded bullets as well and the tips are excellent from a ballistic standpoint.

S-99, much to your credit, you remind me of Evander Hollyfield. Extending courtesy to another individual who didnt deserve or appreciate it. It is certianly more than he would have done for you. I remember how rude he was to you after you were so nice to him. The man was/is inconsiderate and self absorbed, and I hope he comes back long enough to reads this, if not good riddance.

Hot Core:

I looked at your first link. I have to be honest, just reading that thread you went out of your way to agitate him. I have often posted that 700s are great guns - and quote some writers that use them. I think AD doesn't agree with my postion, but so what? I state my opinion, perhaps talk about some of my experiences, and move on.

You just egged him on and on. I stopped reading on page 4, but I never did get to any comment where he called you names.

You have your own positions as well - wood stocked rifles, for example. I am a huge synthetic stock rifle fan, but I have shot 4 Cape buffalo with wood stocked rifles. I would imagine you think I am an idiot, but I would bet money that is 4 buffalo more than you have shot. Does it mean I am a better hunter? No. It means I have a different set of experiences, however.

Just reading that thread I got the feeling you have had a chip on your shoulder with AD for a while; I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
...You have your own positions as well - wood stocked rifles, for example. I am a huge synthetic stock rifle fan, but I have shot 4 Cape buffalo with wood stocked rifles. I would imagine you think I am an idiot, but I would bet money that is 4 buffalo more than you have shot. Does it mean I am a better hunter? No. It means I have a different set of experiences, however.

Just reading that thread I got the feeling you have had a chip on your shoulder with AD for a while; I don't know.

Hey Az Writer, Congratulations on the Buffalos. And if the bet were made, you would beat me by 4 Buffalo - I've not shot any at all.

Nope, I don't think of you as an "idiot" at all, but since you have used a Gun Smith other than Mr. Echols, ad clearly explians that "in his mind" you are a fool for buying a worthless piece of junk.

I do think "you" are smart enough to see what he was saying about EVERYONE and realize he trashed "you".

It's no secret that the difference of opinions between the two of us has gone on for a very long time.

I was not trying to put you in a bad position of trying to defend him, just wanted to point out "how and what" he thinks of ANYONE who has bought ANYTHING other than one of Mr. Echols' rifles. His own words say it better than I can describe them.

I don't see where using a different Gun Smith that provides exactly what "you" want makes "you" a fool. But if "you" believe he is correct, then by his own words, "you" are a fool.

Same for Mark and his Gun Smithed rifles. ad's words were all inclusive and intended to put EVERYONE else down.

Just read the Links, focus on "ad's" words and it is quite obvious what he thinks about EVERYONE else.

quote:

If you didn't mind digging through a average of 57 tons of ego-centric "Me My Searcy, Me My Echels" bullshit to find the rice grain of wisdom in his posts. But what else would you expect from a parasite on socity that thinks he can purchase respect, commonsense and experince?

A. Allen day doesn't own nor does he like Searcys or doubles for that matter
B. He does have a penchant for Echols rifles and synthetic stocks (where we disagree) but he does own and like other rifles and not nessesarily custom ones either.

C. the {sic} "parasite on socity" monicker perplexes me, for how does a self-made man, dependent on no one but his business savvy and his wits, able to provide plenty for his family and afford the best be called a {sic} "parasite on socity"? Unless of course one is an anti-capitalistic liberal who considers the goverment as the only repository of wealth to be had without effort. Allen didn't BUY my respect, he EARNED IT.


I have to agree with AZ (who we also disagree on some things, but yet we seem to keep our civility) on the ussage of premium bullets. If you're spending your hard earned money on a hunt, why skimp on the ammo that might not give you optimum performance? It seems like an easy choice to make. I've been an vid A Frame user but I am looking forward to the TSXs as they are the most consistently accurate bullets I've loaded. jorge

Maybe BC is not that important with .30calmagnums,cause you have the brute force to overcome/make up for any deficiency in less than ideal bullet external geometry.
.308win 165tsx@2740,at 300yds2220v/1800e
.308win 180tsx@2600,at 300yds:2100v/1800e.
30-06/180aframe@2730,at 300yds:2080v/1730e.
30-06/200aframe@2525, at 300yds:1975v/1730e.
...............200XFB@2510,at300yds:2050v/1870e.
.30mag 220gnNP@2660,at 300yds:1940v/1840e.
That tells me BC does effect things realistically. Especially when I can start the 180tsx bullet off slower in the 308, yet have more of everything than that 30/06-180-200aframe load at 300yds.
So technically speaking I can have a 308 that produces less recoil,delivers more V/E/M at 300yds than the 180aframe06, and the fact that it is a TSX, will probably give the penetration closer to that of a copper/lead 200- 220gn.

The 180 tsx may or may not be the ideal balance of things overall ,but for the 308win it probably comes lose. I just used that combo as an example.
Looking at the above numbers the 200XFB is pretty good at 300yds for its initial 2510v.Using the TSX version should make it better still. Looks like I am getting closer to the answer.

I would not bank on anything that Barnes prints and that goes for their inflated ballistic coeificients and loading data.

When I suggested to find a bullet with a sharp meplat I was specific as thats the most important factor.

So what I suggest is that you pick a bullet that shoots well thats heavy enough for the game with a sharp meplat and then see where it hits at all ranges.

I sure wish the BC data was correct myself.

Hot Core, unfortunately you see things no one else does. It's really beyond comprehension.

Allen gives solid advice and having had several conversations with him with regard to hunting and rifle suitable for such I'll say the Echols rifles aren't eclusive to all else in his conversations. And, knowing oh so much more about you than you might fathom, he has held his tongue quite well. Not suprising considering the man.

Savage99, I highly doubt he'll be back.

Chuck

My pick for a premium 30 cal. hunting bullet is the Barnes TSX. I use the 168 grain TSXs in my 30-378wthby...they are very accurate out to long range...I have shot this bullet/load/rifle out to 800yds with extremely good accuracy....and regulary shoot 300,400,500, and 600yds...

As Savage99 noted, you need to shoot at different ranges to see where the bullets actually hit and forget about computed BCs...Actual field conditions ie wind, light, etc will be much more significant factors in long range shooting/hunting (beyond 300 yds) than a 10-15% difference in BC...if you spend time shooting long range you know what I am speaking of...

I doubt Allen will be back and that he is losing any sleep over it. Aforum is for opinions and it would be pretty dull if they were all the same. At least he had some experience and had the guts to use his real name.

I believe, if one is planning to shoot very long range (over 400 yds), one should pick a relatively high BC bullet that is also very accurate. I like the Nosler Ballistic Tip, because the NBT is a very accurate hunting bullet (the most accurate in my experience), has a quite high BC, and tends to display good terminal ballistics at long range, especially when velocity has slowed to ~2000 fps.

quote:

At least he had some experience and had the guts to use his real name.

That always was and still is a stupid take. I know an individual who has his own forum/webbsite and is very friendly and gentlemanlike. He is open about who he is and responds to questions in a very helpfull manner, it is a webbsite about trucks. And because some people like this kind of truck and dislike that kind, there are unfortunatley ignorant people on the webb who have harassed his wife and kids over the phone. No one should have to put up with that.

Using your own name over the webb isnt nessecarily about guts. That is your old buddy talking, and was just one of his childish ways of getting under other peoples skin as he was so fond of doing.

I just hope I dont have to keep reading about the jerk a year after he's left.

Respect? That has nothing to do with how deep a mans wallet is and everything to do with his character, something he never did understand and probably never will. Which is also why he is/was uncapable of learning from anyone elses "experience". He is like the proverbial full cup that has no room for any more, "experience" tells me that one good listner is worth 9000 pompus asses.


All my life I have dispised the kind of individual who places himself on a pedestal and feels it nessecary to look down his nose at other people, and if there is a name for that kind of individual Im sure you can look it up in a dictionary and see good 'ol AD in kodacolor. So if you get to missing him to badly please, get out your dictionaries and let the rest of us get back to the subject matter..

And those of you proping him up in here and then slamming anyone who disagrees, YOU opened the door, Im just walking through.



Byren