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Can you tell me how you knew it was his real name??? Do you know him personally? I know a guy named L++++ M++++++ from G++++++ Nebraska that posts on another forum. Later I didscovered that it was neither his name nor was he from anyplace near there. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Yes it's his name, and I suspect you know same. | |||
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Ditto that Chuck. Petty jealousy is a telling and pathetic characteristic... | |||
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Woodjack, From your post it is unclear what 30 cal cartridge you intend to use. While I like and use extensively the 180gr Nosler Partition in the 30-06 and various 300 magnums, it is not the bullet that I would use in a 308 class load. It has been my experience that there is very little opportunity for hunting animals on high value hunts/safaris over 300 yards, and seldom over 275yards. As someone, perhaps Scromp observed, there isn't a lot of difference between .495 and .510 on flatness. There are real differences in terminal performance between bullets. The 180gr Nosler Partition and its cousin the 180BT are both slippery enough to be useful inside 300 yards with 30-06 class cartridges or better. The BT gives up little, if anything, to a target bullet, and the Partition is not far behind it. If you are shooting a 308 class cartridge, I'd go to a lighter bullet, 165gr Partition would be optimum, although it gives up a bit in drop and energy. A ph would not want you to take a shot at large, pricey animal at 300 yards. The 165gr will work on the deer sized animals as well as the 180gr for all practical purposes at 300 yards. Kudude | |||
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I think some of you go overboard on AD in terms of criticism, but one thing that I personally object to is this "jealousy thing." Just because you happen to disagree with AD or anyone else doesn't mean you are jealous of them. It is not at all unusual for someone to play the jealously card but at the same time have absolutely no knowledge of the person's life that is the object of supposed envy. I don't care how much a guy has hunted or how much money he has, if his personal life in terms of relationships is in disarray, or his kids are chronic losers, etc, I surely don't envy him. There is more to life than hunting. But even if he is not plaqued by any of this, it is fair to be critical. Funny though, that no one has ever been critical of AD's experience. | |||
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That is because his experience is so extensive that it negates everyone elses.  I guess the problem I have had with the man is that I refuse to give respect to someone who refuses to give any himself. We all have our stories to tell and we all deserve to be treated with some measure of respect. Most people seem to understand that, but I didnt sense that about Alan, quite the oppisite. In a nuttshell, the man has no people skills.. Yes he has a lot of hunting knowledge and I myself learned from him, but that means nothing to me if it comes from a heart of stone. Allan Day is not the only bloke Ive learned from on this forum, far from it. Nuff said.. Woodjack, I appologize for participating in the hijacking of your thread..  | |||
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Well, sometimes threads get hijacked for valid reasons and this is a good one I think. I personally never had any problem gaining Allen's respect--and giving it, and I do not own any Echols rifles. He is arguably one of the nicest, kindest persons I've met since this internet business started. Problem is I think that some- NOT ALL- posters are a bit insecure and when someone rains on the parade of their choice, they get upset. AZ also states a valid point. He's disagreed with Allen and with me for that matter on a few issues, yet jealousy plays no part. But I have to ask, those of you who keep bringing him up, what is the purpose? IT makes one wonder anyway. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Absolute truth! | |||
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This is what you get from a person who at times acts like the Trochil. I would like to forgive and forget but there is no end to it with AD so far. He can't not express himself without unfounded insults. The last one over on 24 hrs was a beut and then he ran into what Hagel wrote. That ended it that one but as I say he is mean and ill spoken. Not that he could not change. What a waste it is. Join the NRA | |||
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Probably too late to go back to the original post, as I've just seen this thread. That said, some important things are missing from the initial post, critical to me in making that choice is what game is being hunted, at what ranges, and what chambering is being used to launch the bullet? To me, the best bullet for a moose when using a .308 win is not the same bullet I'd use for a blacktail at 400 ys launched from a 300 mag. I'd say if I had to pick one combo for all around use it would something along the lines of a 168 gr triple shock @ 3300 from a 300 mag, or a 180 gr bonded bullet @ 3100 fps. Ultimately it's a bit of a tossup, the sleeker bullets tend not to be the toughest of construction, so you'll always have to play the game of, am I hunting something big and tough up close, or wanting to take smaller big game way out there. There is also another very valid approach which is to say if you really have to niggle bullet construction bc et al to get what you need, if you jump up to say a 338, you have enough bullet to negate bullet construction to a point. I'm thinking a sleek 225 gr in a 338 @ 2900 fps would work as well in an all around way as the "best" 30 cal. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Don, your experience is thin, your skull is thick and you just can't get it. You run with your tail between your legs from one forum to another. I've yet to see anyone on any forum that can continualy agree with anything you post. Someone needs to knock you in the nose for your benefit. Mind your own business, stick to what you know (it aint much), and whine somewhere else. Chuck | |||
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Back again to the original subject , I am curious about those triple shocks . Has anyone shot enough of them at long range , say out to 500 yards , to see if the published b.c. s are even remotely close ? Reason I ask , I ran across a post on another board by a guy claiming the triple shock will "parachute" beyond 300 yards . He claimed perhaps the "ridges" built into the bullet shank set up alot of drag as the bullet decelerates . Ya think there's anything to that ? | |||
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I'd love to know on what data this statement is made.....sounds like pure  to me./////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Yes, I have shot the 30cal TSX 168s out to 800 yds...go to the first page of this thread and see my post. That fellow apparently had an issue with Barnes and made some rather rash statements about the TSX and its perfomance... I used TSX in 308win on up to 458Lott, from 2250fps to 3500fps in velocity, 150grain to 500grain bullets, from whitetail deer to cape buffalo, all except one being one shot kills from 120yds to 450yds...very accurate and good terminal performance on game! | |||
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I am no aerodynamic expert, but I do recall from college days and studying fluid dynamics/aerospace engineering that laminar flow often creates more drag and roughing up a surface will sometimes cause less drag. Anyone here an aerospace engineer? Those are the guys that would know. | |||
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In the world of long range competitive shooting BC means something and could be significant when you condsider the skill of these shooters. In regards to a 30cal Premium hunting bullets +/-10 percent means much less... First, most hunters are not in a position to take a 300+ yard shots at a game animal. Beyond 300yds there are more important factors to consider, such as a steady rest, wind, lighting, time of flight, etc...+/-10% BC in a hunting situation is a rather small part of the equation... | |||
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Quote "My pick for a premium 30 cal. hunting bullet is the Barnes TSX. I use the 168 grain TSXs in my 30-378wthby...they are very accurate out to long range...I have shot this bullet/load/rifle out to 800yds with extremely good accuracy....and regulary shoot 300,400,500, and 600yds...unquote" jjs , yes , I see now where you have used the triple shocks out to long range with good accuracy results. However , that does not neccesarily mean they live up to their extreme b.c. claims . The 30 caliber 180 gr boat tail TSX , for instance , has an advertised b.c. of 0.550 , while most lead core bullets of the same weight are more like 0.450 . I guess I am just skeptical of that sort of claim . And now Barnes is bringing out the "MRX" bullet with a tungsten core . It seems to me if the all copper bullets are really as efficient as they claim , complicated slugs with cores of heavier than lead material would not be needed ? | |||
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I guess my point has more to do with all the factors one should consider about long range hunting...and Premium hunting bullets...BC is one factor... Last I spoke with Barnes, they spoke about the TSX BCs being less than the "X" and they had no actual data on the BC of the TSX...been awhile so that could have changed... One must actually spend some time shooting at long range to develop an experience level and see actual results, so adjustments can be made. Two years ago, not long after the TSX came to the market, I spent some time developing/chronographing/testing loads for a 30-378wthby... I use the 168grain TSX...according to velocity, estimated BC (450), sight in, etc... I programmed into my chrono...I should have been approx. 8" low at 400yds..after a bunch of shooting, at that range, my actual drop was closer to 6.5"...now many factors could have affected the estimates vs results...thats my point....estimated and actual data is useful to develop long range loads, etc...but until you acutally spend time in the field shooting long range it is all just guess work.... | |||
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JJS, agreed. I'd also add Barnes is in the process of lowering its infflated BC figures. The 168 TSX is now listed at .405. BC is a nearly unknowable thing. I soot the 168 TSX in my 30-06 and use the Barnes manual to sight in according the the 165 XFB chart and get the exact same reults to 400 yards. So, at least at my range at 5,500 feet at 55 deg F with 18% humidity the 168 TSX has the same BC as the 165 XFB. Course, I have no idea what the actual BC is for the 165 XFB, just that the 168 TSX does exactly what the 165 drop charts say it should! Good enough for me... reality is more important than theory. | |||
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Not an aerospace engineer, and it's been nearly 20 years since I took fluid dynamics, but as I recall. If you have a long surface, like an airplane wing with a cord of some 15-20 feet, the skin drag from laminar flow can be greater than if you trip the flow into a tight turbulant flow early on in the flow. The other extreme is a golf ball that does produce a very violent turbulant flow because of it's very short chord, and thus tripping the flow into turbulant early on allows the flow to be less turbulant on the trailing edge. I haven't done any flow calcs on bullets, and have no desire to. That said, I'd assume that bullets are short enough that the skin drag is minimal, so you wouldn't want to trip into turbulant to reduce that. On the other extreme asside from round balls you don't have the violent turbulant flow to conted with. So for a spitzer bullet, me thinks sleek and smooth is the best. I don't know how great the effect of grooves are in relation to bc, but I would note that the sleekest bullets don't even have a canalure cut into them, and me thinks there is a darn good reason for no canalure. So, me thinks the triple shock is a compromise of aerodynamic design in tradeoff to get terminal performance of the monometal, and to allow the harder metal to achieve the same velocity as a softer cup/core bullet. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Woodjack, My preference for 30 caliber bullets right now is the Nosler Acubonds. I was shooting Winchester Supreme ammo for years (Failsafes, next the Partition Golds, and now the past 2 seasons- Accubonds - all 180gr.). All bullets were great performers on the big game I hunt in Alberta. I have been reloading the Accubonds and TSX, but havent tried the TSX on game yet. As of the 1st season (2004) with the Accubonds, I shot 2 deer at two distances (44metres and 554metres) all 1 shot kills with my Sako m75 SS 300WM. If you want more info about the deer and performance of this bullet, I posted the pics of the 2 deer in the trophy room under"2 Bucks an Hour". My hunting buddy had the same results with the same rifle setup as me on his moose that year. This bullet also performed flawless on my wife's (then fiance) first mulie buck and cow elk in 2004 shooting a Tikka T3 LS 270WSM with 140gr. Accubonds. I prefer the Accubonds now over the Partiton Golds only for polymer tip -the fact that I was tired of the tips getting squared off on the Partiton Golds all the time, from loading a shell in, and then taking it out at the end of a day's hunt. I will be trying the new Winchester Supreme Elite XP3 bullets this season in the 270WSM and 300WM - hopefully a person can buy them for reloading. Good luck in your decision. Everyone has their opinion from trials and hunt experiences, and there is lots of good advice posted in this topic. | |||
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One think I've noticed from bullets with a cannelure... When shooting at adhesive mounted targets it always seem that the adhesive target seperates from the backing at the bullet hole and the torn rim of the hole is "blown back" towards the shooter. When bullets without a cannelure are used I don't see this phenomena. It's almost like the air being carried along in the cannelure "blows" the adhesive bond apart... AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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I sort of see an an advantage with the idea of a tungsten core 180tsx. I believe that bullet is actually shorter than the regular 180tsx, so in effect, it allows you in cases like the .308win to run a 180 with less encroachment on needed powder space. Likewise i would like to see an MRX200gn.30cal for use in the 06 and magnum30s'. | |||
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I don,t want to get involved with Hot Core on his second and third posts but the advice he gave you on looking up Lost River on the net will be well worth your time, for what you want to find. site www.lostriverballistic.com There J36 180gr has a BC of 672 quite high and quite expensive but top notch bullet, I read a article where a fellow tested 30cal bullets in a .06 on wet phone books, 180gr core-lock penetrated 12, 180 nosler 16, and the lost river right through 22 and into sand bank, I have tryed these in my 7mmwsm at the high 3290fps 140 gr, they shoot under 1/2", they shoot very very flat, but I have not tryed on game as yet, I am a quite concerned that they are to close to a military bullet, except for that this bullet will do everthing you are looking for, they retain 80%, if you tell lost river people the velocity of your J36 they will email you a print out to 1000 yards with FPS & energy, drop etc. Good Luck | |||
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The Nosler Accubond. "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .30cal Premium hunting bullet, which is the most ballistically efficient?
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